Apple still effectively blocks rival browser engines on iOS despite EU order

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The Open Web Advocacy group claims that despite claiming to allow rival browser engines on the iPhone, Apple has made it impossible for developers to create them.

Blue flags with yellow stars and a white airport emblem wave on metal poles, with a modern glass building in the background.
An EU flag with the App Store logo



At the end of June 2025, the European Union hosted a workshop for Apple and other parties to raise issues concerning the Digital Markets Act (DMA). Now video of one section of the workshop has been published by the Open Web Advocacy (OWA) group to support its argument that Apple is effectively still making app developers use its own WebKit browsing engine.

The OWA's case is that Apple is blocking firms such as Mozilla and Google from switching their browser apps to their own engines in two ways:

  • Not allowing for different versions of existing apps

  • Not allowing testing outside of the EU



That first condition means that at present, no company can change from having a worldwide version of their app, to having both that and an EU-only one. Instead, they have to create and market a separate app for the EU, meaning having to get users to switch from their existing version.

One answer to this would be to replace the current global app with different versions for the EU and everywhere else in the world. Another answer would be for Apple to simply allow third-party browsers worldwide -- and while Apple decline to discuss some future plans, this was one move it was adamant it wouldn't do.

No worldwide third-party browser engines



"We are not going to export European law to the United States," said Kyle Andeer vice president of Apple Legal, "and we're not going to export your European law to other jurisdictions. Each jurisdiction should have the freedom and decision making to make its own decisions."

Regarding why there were no rival web browser engines despite the DMA being law for 15 months, Apple's Andeer repeatedly referred to how the EU was forcing it to compromise the security and privacy "that has worked for 18 years."

Nonetheless, says Andeer, Apple has create a program that lets third-party browser engines come to iOS, yet keeps security and privacy in mind. "And for whatever reason, they've chosen not to do so."

Introducing hurdles for developers



The OWA didn't accept that it was the browser firms' choice not to come to iOS. And OWA volunteer James Heppell pressed on the point about Apple preventing testing.

"Most web developers... [are based] all around the world, in the US, where you're from, in Asia and African, the rest of America's all over, and they still serve EU users," said Heppell, "but they're going to be unable to install or test these new browsers with their third party engines on their devices."

That's because allegedly, only developers within the EU are able to test this type of app for users in that region. Heppell pointed out that Apple had eventually allowed versions of other types of EU-only apps to be tested outside the Union, and asked why it wasn't doing the same for browser engines.

Andeer admitted that "we're in a position of transition," but also that Apple believes it has "developed a compliant solution."



Gary Davis, senior director of Apple Legal, added that the company was discussing this testing issue with Mozilla and Google.

"I would expect to see some updates there," he said. "So you can generally see we are trying to be more conscious of that."

Fractious meeting



The EU itself has not released any video from the workshop, but under its rules, any attendee can do so within certain conditions set during the event. The OWA is the first to release any video, and it is only a portion of the workshop, but it does also contain moments of heated disagreement.

At one point after EU organizers allowed questions that were arguably off the event's agenda, Kyle Andeer made an inaudible crack about hearing from Spotify. OWA's James Heppell took affront at what appeared to be an accusation of the group being funded by Spotify, and Andeer was quick to clarify that he didn't mean the advocacy volunteer.

Without more of the workshop video being release, it isn't possible to be clear who he did mean. He referred only to someone he called a code representative, who was in the room and alleged is funded by Spotify amongst others.

What happens next



This meeting was the 2025 Apple DMA Compliance Workshop, and was one of a series of such meetings. Each was held with a different company designated as a "gatekeeper" by the EU, and OWA has also posted video from the session with Google.

The EU has said only that these workshops in Brussels would allow for interested parties to give feedback on DMA compliance issues, and to ask questions. There is no stated further response coming from the EU, and no indication of what outcomes may come from any of the workshops.

This series of workshops, though, was the second such run following an initial set in 2024. So it seems likely that there will be a third series in 2026, although no dates have been announced.

The workshop, though, comes as Apple has filed an appeal accusing the EU of overreach with the DMA. Specifically, it claims that the EU is trying to micro-manage Apple's business, and going far beyond the extent of the law.



Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    thttht Posts: 6,010member
    Sounds like someone wants that Google default search money. Also sounds like they are fighting the last war (Google won), not the current war of AI trying to replace Google search. And who the heck knows what will happen to Google and its default search money, post DOJ remedies.

    Every "browser engine" is just going to be a Chromium derivative. It already is, save for iOS Webkit, which is the Chromium engine's parent anyways. They all will get paid through default placement of services, if they get enough users. The browser engine also has very little to do with getting those users. especially engines that are not 99% compatible with websites. That compatibility basically drives everyone to Chrome/Chromium.

    Safari is the alternate web browser, alternate browser engine. Android has 70% marketshare in Europe. If a new successful browser engine has to be successful there to have a chance of getting users.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 2 of 19
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,379member
    I have DuckDuckGo on my iPhone and iPad so what's the problem? I also don't use google for any search engine because there are alternatives. Is this only an EU issue? If so, then the EU needs to talk to browser companies instead of bothering Apple.
    lotonesClownAbuserCrossPlatformFrogger
     1Like 2Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 3 of 19
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 3,649member
    The eu can’t force apple to do its bidding outside of the eu. 

    Snd apple has complied and no one stepped in to take advantage. Can’t blame apple for that. 

    Add pompous to the arrogance thst defies the corrupt eu. 
    ClownAbuser
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  • Reply 4 of 19
    The EU is overstepping again.

    If you don't like how Apple does business, there are another 1300 other brands you can buy, that offer all the engines you want, it's called android devices.
    Alex1NClownAbuser
     1Like 1Dislike 0Informatives
  • Reply 5 of 19

    rob53 said:
    I have DuckDuckGo on my iPhone and iPad so what's the problem? I also don't use google for any search engine because there are alternatives. Is this only an EU issue? If so, then the EU needs to talk to browser companies instead of bothering Apple.
    A search engine is not the same as a browser engine, 

    Think of it like this, for the internet:
    The browser engine is the "operating system" like iOS
    the search engine is an "app" 

    coolfactorAlex1NClownAbuserCrossPlatformFrogger
     4Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 6 of 19
    rob53 said:
    I have DuckDuckGo on my iPhone and iPad so what's the problem? I also don't use google for any search engine because there are alternatives. Is this only an EU issue? If so, then the EU needs to talk to browser companies instead of bothering Apple.
    The problem is a lack of understanding on your part. The issue isn't that 3rd parties can't develop web browsers for iOS it's the they all have to use Apple's build interface browsing engine. So if you get Chrome on your iOS device it isn't using Chromium like every other version of Chrome, it is using Webkit. That you have DuckDuckGo and don't use google aren't relevant to the issue. And why would the EU talk to other browser companies? Lastly, the EU has talked to other browser companies, that's how the issue came in the first place. 


    Alex1Nmuthuk_vanalingamClownAbuserCrossPlatformFroggerdanox
     4Likes 1Dislike 0Informatives
  • Reply 7 of 19
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,405member
    How does a competing "browser engine" help me as a consumer when all of the value-added benefits of competing browsers is the rest of the stuff?

    Is it the extension support in Firefox? Extensions won't work in Firefox on iOS when WebKit is the browser engine? That seems like a stretch.

    Competition is good, but this seems like an odd battle. For years. Firefox had a sub-standard (slow and bloated) browser on Macs. Where was the wolf cry over that disconnect?

    There's nothing inherently wrong with WebKit. It is a near-equal engine alongside the other majors. So what are the major issues at stake?
    zeus423ClownAbuserdanox
     2Likes 1Dislike 0Informatives
  • Reply 8 of 19
    How does a competing "browser engine" help me as a consumer when all of the value-added benefits of competing browsers is the rest of the stuff?

    Is it the extension support in Firefox? Extensions won't work in Firefox on iOS when WebKit is the browser engine? That seems like a stretch.

    Competition is good, but this seems like an odd battle. For years. Firefox had a sub-standard (slow and bloated) browser on Macs. Where was the wolf cry over that disconnect?

    There's nothing inherently wrong with WebKit. It is a near-equal engine alongside the other majors. So what are the major issues at stake?
    There is the obvious. We actually don’t know if WebKit is the best on iOS because nothing is allowed to compete with it.  For all we know another engine could run circles around it. 

    We all certainly understood what a better browser meant when Safari came out and we could dump I.E.  As a consumer I benefited from that competition. The same thing can’t happen on iOS. 
    Alex1Nzeus423muthuk_vanalingamClownAbusergatorguyCrossPlatformFroggerwilliamlondondanox
     5Likes 3Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 9 of 19

    The EU is overstepping again.

    If you don't like how Apple does business, there are another 1300 other brands you can buy, that offer all the engines you want, it's called android devices.
    On the contrary, the EU is allowed to both legislate and regulate business as it sees fit. You may not like it but your feelings don’t create a sense of obligation for the EU. Sorry to rain on your parade  
    shrave10muthuk_vanalingamClownAbusergatorguyCrossPlatformFroggerwilliamlondondanox
     4Likes 3Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 10 of 19
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,875member

    The EU is overstepping again.

    If you don't like how Apple does business, there are another 1300 other brands you can buy, that offer all the engines you want, it's called android devices.
    On the contrary, the EU is allowed to both legislate and regulate business as it sees fit. You may not like it but your feelings don’t create a sense of obligation for the EU. Sorry to rain on your parade  
    Within the EU, yes but it can’t dictate what Apple does outside the EU and that includes any future updates on the OS or the hardware. Inside yes, in the end, it will lead to forks in the OS and the hardware. Note with the way many countries are behaving around the world. The EU will get their wish and they will get a separate type of device for their region and when that day comes said device will not necessarily be the equal of what is sold in the United States and many other places in the world.
    zeus423ClownAbuserneoncatCrossPlatformFroggerwilliamlondon
     2Likes 3Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 11 of 19
    shrave10shrave10 Posts: 88member

    The EU is overstepping again.

    If you don't like how Apple does business, there are another 1300 other brands you can buy, that offer all the engines you want, it's called android devices.
    On the contrary, the EU is allowed to both legislate and regulate business as it sees fit. You may not like it but your feelings don’t create a sense of obligation for the EU. Sorry to rain on your parade  
    The EU just caved in on the Digital Tax under US pressure.  POTUS will probably require them to rewrite the DEA (Digital Extortion Act) next.  EU is realizing they also live in glass houses.
    zeus423ClownAbuserCrossPlatformFroggerdanox
     2Likes 2Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 12 of 19
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,183member
    How does a competing "browser engine" help me as a consumer when all of the value-added benefits of competing browsers is the rest of the stuff?

    Is it the extension support in Firefox? Extensions won't work in Firefox on iOS when WebKit is the browser engine? That seems like a stretch.

    Competition is good, but this seems like an odd battle. For years. Firefox had a sub-standard (slow and bloated) browser on Macs. Where was the wolf cry over that disconnect?

    There's nothing inherently wrong with WebKit. It is a near-equal engine alongside the other majors. So what are the major issues at stake?
    There is the obvious. We actually don’t know if WebKit is the best on iOS because nothing is allowed to compete with it.  For all we know another engine could run circles around it. 

    We all certainly understood what a better browser meant when Safari came out and we could dump I.E.  As a consumer I benefited from that competition. The same thing can’t happen on iOS. 

    But let's be realistic here. There are no "browser developers" that wants to develop another "browser engine" that competes with Blink, WebKit or Gecko. What these so call browser developers, that are bitching about no browser engine competition on iOS, want to do is to develop an iOS browser that uses the Blink browser engine.

    If there are browser engine developers that wants to develop a competing browser engine to WebKit on iOS, then where are their browser engines on Android? Nearly 100% of  the over dozen of different browsers on Android, uses Blink. Why in the name of Hell is the EU so concern about competition in the "browser engine" market on iOS, when there is no browser engine competition on Android? Not even Microsoft wants to develop their own browser engine for Edge (on Windows). They switched to Blink. There is no way that a browser engine can succeed by just being on iOS. It would also have to be on Android, before website developers develop for it. And they would rather not have to, just so that the  consumers have more choices of browser engines. Most consumers only care about the choice in browsers. 


    On MacOS, we have mainly WebKit, Blink and Gecko (FireFox). Blink don't come close to "running circles" around Safari or even FireFox, on MacOS. So far, most Mac users prefers Safari. But I imagine that if one was using an Android phone, they might prefer Chrome. Not because Blink runs circles around Safari but because Chrome is the browser Android phone owners are use to using. The same with Chrome on iOS. Even though iOS Chrome uses WebKit, PC users rather use Chrome on their iPhones because it's what they are use to using on their Windows PC. For the average consumers, it makes no real difference. Each has its advantages, along with its disadvantages. Blink enjoy advantages on Android, the same way WebKit enjoy advantages on iOS (and MacOS), vertical integration with the OS, as both (engine and OS) are developed by the same company. It is very hard for any competing browser engine to overcome those "vertical integrated" advantages. (Of course in the EU, they could force Apple to give those "vertical integrated"  advantages to competing browser engines.)

    So far, from what i have read, the biggest crybaby about not being able to develop a Blink browser on iOS is Meta. From what I understand, what Meta want to do is to put a browser inside their Facebook app, so users don't have to exit their Facebook app to get on the internet. Why? Because the browser inside their app would still be consider "first party" and not subject to Apple ATT.  They can data mine the Hell out of it, without informing their users. (And Spotify might be thinking along the same line, which is why the EU might be so concern about "browser engine" competition on iOS.) And Meta wants to use Blink because it offers less user privacy and more ways to mine users data. (Though there might be other technical advantages.) After all Blink was developed by Google, as a fork of WebKit.

    I think you failed to understand why Mac users "dumped" IE for Safari. It was mainly because Safari browser engine was open source while IE had a proprietary MS engine. IE for Macs even had a different browser engine than IE for Windows. Website developers got tire of MS proprietary shit that kept changing with little notice and no choice but to comply as IE had an over 90% market share at the time. Mac users "dumping" IE for Safari came at the same time PC users were dumping IE for Mozilla FireFox. Developers made the difference by jumping at the opportunity to develop for browser engines that were open source.   


    danox
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  • Reply 13 of 19
    I don't understand why the journalist wrote "Without more of the workshop video being release" - the EU published a recording of the live stream the next day https://webcast.ec.europa.eu/2nd-dma-enforcement-workshop-apple-update-on-first-year-of-dma-compliance-2025-06-30, and there are many reports with verbatim quotes from the sessions, eg https://brucelawson.co.uk/2025/up-the-kriek-apple-gets-punchy-in-brussels-dma-compliance-workshop/
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 14 of 19
    davidw said:
    But let's be realistic here. There are no "browser developers" that wants to develop another "browser engine" that competes with Blink, WebKit or Gecko. 


    Apart from Servo (started by Mozilla, now developed by Igalia et al), Ladybird, Flow. And I will bet my salary that Mozilla doesn't want to release Firefox using Blink - they've already got a Gecko-based iOS browser running on iOS, but Apple's T&Cs prevent its release.
    edited July 15
    gatorguy
     0Likes 0Dislikes 1Informative
  • Reply 15 of 19
    danox said:

    The EU is overstepping again.

    If you don't like how Apple does business, there are another 1300 other brands you can buy, that offer all the engines you want, it's called android devices.
    On the contrary, the EU is allowed to both legislate and regulate business as it sees fit. You may not like it but your feelings don’t create a sense of obligation for the EU. Sorry to rain on your parade  
    Within the EU, yes but it can’t dictate what Apple does outside the EU and that includes any future updates on the OS or the hardware. Inside yes, in the end, it will lead to forks in the OS and the hardware. Note with the way many countries are behaving around the world. The EU will get their wish and they will get a separate type of device for their region and when that day comes said device will not necessarily be the equal of what is sold in the United States and many other places in the world.
    Hey there straw man, when did I say the EU could legislate outside of the EU? 
    muthuk_vanalingam
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 16 of 19
    davidw said:
    How does a competing "browser engine" help me as a consumer when all of the value-added benefits of competing browsers is the rest of the stuff?

    Is it the extension support in Firefox? Extensions won't work in Firefox on iOS when WebKit is the browser engine? That seems like a stretch.

    Competition is good, but this seems like an odd battle. For years. Firefox had a sub-standard (slow and bloated) browser on Macs. Where was the wolf cry over that disconnect?

    There's nothing inherently wrong with WebKit. It is a near-equal engine alongside the other majors. So what are the major issues at stake?
    There is the obvious. We actually don’t know if WebKit is the best on iOS because nothing is allowed to compete with it.  For all we know another engine could run circles around it. 

    We all certainly understood what a better browser meant when Safari came out and we could dump I.E.  As a consumer I benefited from that competition. The same thing can’t happen on iOS. 

    But let's be realistic here. There are no "browser developers" that wants to develop another "browser engine" that competes with Blink, WebKit or Gecko. What these so call browser developers, that are bitching about no browser engine competition on iOS, want to do is to develop an iOS browser that uses the Blink browser engine.

    If there are browser engine developers that wants to develop a competing browser engine to WebKit on iOS, then where are their browser engines on Android? Nearly 100% of  the over dozen of different browsers on Android, uses Blink. Why in the name of Hell is the EU so concern about competition in the "browser engine" market on iOS, when there is no browser engine competition on Android? Not even Microsoft wants to develop their own browser engine for Edge (on Windows). They switched to Blink. There is no way that a browser engine can succeed by just being on iOS. It would also have to be on Android, before website developers develop for it. And they would rather not have to, just so that the  consumers have more choices of browser engines. Most consumers only care about the choice in browsers. 


    On MacOS, we have mainly WebKit, Blink and Gecko (FireFox). Blink don't come close to "running circles" around Safari or even FireFox, on MacOS. So far, most Mac users prefers Safari. But I imagine that if one was using an Android phone, they might prefer Chrome. Not because Blink runs circles around Safari but because Chrome is the browser Android phone owners are use to using. The same with Chrome on iOS. Even though iOS Chrome uses WebKit, PC users rather use Chrome on their iPhones because it's what they are use to using on their Windows PC. For the average consumers, it makes no real difference. Each has its advantages, along with its disadvantages. Blink enjoy advantages on Android, the same way WebKit enjoy advantages on iOS (and MacOS), vertical integration with the OS, as both (engine and OS) are developed by the same company. It is very hard for any competing browser engine to overcome those "vertical integrated" advantages. (Of course in the EU, they could force Apple to give those "vertical integrated"  advantages to competing browser engines.)

    So far, from what i have read, the biggest crybaby about not being able to develop a Blink browser on iOS is Meta. From what I understand, what Meta want to do is to put a browser inside their Facebook app, so users don't have to exit their Facebook app to get on the internet. Why? Because the browser inside their app would still be consider "first party" and not subject to Apple ATT.  They can data mine the Hell out of it, without informing their users. (And Spotify might be thinking along the same line, which is why the EU might be so concern about "browser engine" competition on iOS.) And Meta wants to use Blink because it offers less user privacy and more ways to mine users data. (Though there might be other technical advantages.) After all Blink was developed by Google, as a fork of WebKit.

    I think you failed to understand why Mac users "dumped" IE for Safari. It was mainly because Safari browser engine was open source while IE had a proprietary MS engine. IE for Macs even had a different browser engine than IE for Windows. Website developers got tire of MS proprietary shit that kept changing with little notice and no choice but to comply as IE had an over 90% market share at the time. Mac users "dumping" IE for Safari came at the same time PC users were dumping IE for Mozilla FireFox. Developers made the difference by jumping at the opportunity to develop for browser engines that were open source.   


    The fundamental problem with your argument is that the main premise is that because there isn’t a better engine there will never be one so it doesn’t matter. The idea is just fundamentally flawed. Again, history as our guide. How many Mac users had heard of KHTML the week before Apple announced Safari? The answer is less than 1%. Few people on any platform had heard of it. But it’s the open source project that Apple forked and turned into WebKit. Yes there are a few popular web engines but there aren’t the only three and just like Apple forked KHTML, maybe the better WebKit is a forked WebKit.  We don’t know and we won’t know because there is literally no motivation to optimize anything for iOS. 

    As for your re-write of history. No, users didn’t move to Safari because it was open sourced. Most Mac users likely didn’t know nor care. They moved to it because it was  better.  Full stop. PC users did dump IE in a meaningful way until Chrome came along. 

    The whole reason we got into the IE mess was because Microsoft used their dominant platform to push their browser while making it difficult for competitors. KHTML based browsers hit the market in 1998 and had no impact. It wasn’t until 2003 when Apple used it for Safari that it started to break through. Apple is using its platform to maintain its browser engine’s dominance in a far more aggressive way that Microsoft. Breaking though was hard enough when there were two computing platforms to account for and one was abusing their dominance. It is even harder now that there are 4-ish platforms and one of dominant platforms has made completely impossible. 
    thtmuthuk_vanalingamCrossPlatformFroggergatorguy
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  • Reply 17 of 19

    Apple still effectively blocks rival browser engines on iOS despite EU order

    Good.


    darelrexdanox
     2Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 18 of 19
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,183member
    davidw said:
    How does a competing "browser engine" help me as a consumer when all of the value-added benefits of competing browsers is the rest of the stuff?

    Is it the extension support in Firefox? Extensions won't work in Firefox on iOS when WebKit is the browser engine? That seems like a stretch.

    Competition is good, but this seems like an odd battle. For years. Firefox had a sub-standard (slow and bloated) browser on Macs. Where was the wolf cry over that disconnect?

    There's nothing inherently wrong with WebKit. It is a near-equal engine alongside the other majors. So what are the major issues at stake?
    There is the obvious. We actually don’t know if WebKit is the best on iOS because nothing is allowed to compete with it.  For all we know another engine could run circles around it. 

    We all certainly understood what a better browser meant when Safari came out and we could dump I.E.  As a consumer I benefited from that competition. The same thing can’t happen on iOS. 

    But let's be realistic here. There are no "browser developers" that wants to develop another "browser engine" that competes with Blink, WebKit or Gecko. What these so call browser developers, that are bitching about no browser engine competition on iOS, want to do is to develop an iOS browser that uses the Blink browser engine.

    If there are browser engine developers that wants to develop a competing browser engine to WebKit on iOS, then where are their browser engines on Android? Nearly 100% of  the over dozen of different browsers on Android, uses Blink. Why in the name of Hell is the EU so concern about competition in the "browser engine" market on iOS, when there is no browser engine competition on Android? Not even Microsoft wants to develop their own browser engine for Edge (on Windows). They switched to Blink. There is no way that a browser engine can succeed by just being on iOS. It would also have to be on Android, before website developers develop for it. And they would rather not have to, just so that the  consumers have more choices of browser engines. Most consumers only care about the choice in browsers. 


    On MacOS, we have mainly WebKit, Blink and Gecko (FireFox). Blink don't come close to "running circles" around Safari or even FireFox, on MacOS. So far, most Mac users prefers Safari. But I imagine that if one was using an Android phone, they might prefer Chrome. Not because Blink runs circles around Safari but because Chrome is the browser Android phone owners are use to using. The same with Chrome on iOS. Even though iOS Chrome uses WebKit, PC users rather use Chrome on their iPhones because it's what they are use to using on their Windows PC. For the average consumers, it makes no real difference. Each has its advantages, along with its disadvantages. Blink enjoy advantages on Android, the same way WebKit enjoy advantages on iOS (and MacOS), vertical integration with the OS, as both (engine and OS) are developed by the same company. It is very hard for any competing browser engine to overcome those "vertical integrated" advantages. (Of course in the EU, they could force Apple to give those "vertical integrated"  advantages to competing browser engines.)

    So far, from what i have read, the biggest crybaby about not being able to develop a Blink browser on iOS is Meta. From what I understand, what Meta want to do is to put a browser inside their Facebook app, so users don't have to exit their Facebook app to get on the internet. Why? Because the browser inside their app would still be consider "first party" and not subject to Apple ATT.  They can data mine the Hell out of it, without informing their users. (And Spotify might be thinking along the same line, which is why the EU might be so concern about "browser engine" competition on iOS.) And Meta wants to use Blink because it offers less user privacy and more ways to mine users data. (Though there might be other technical advantages.) After all Blink was developed by Google, as a fork of WebKit.

    I think you failed to understand why Mac users "dumped" IE for Safari. It was mainly because Safari browser engine was open source while IE had a proprietary MS engine. IE for Macs even had a different browser engine than IE for Windows. Website developers got tire of MS proprietary shit that kept changing with little notice and no choice but to comply as IE had an over 90% market share at the time. Mac users "dumping" IE for Safari came at the same time PC users were dumping IE for Mozilla FireFox. Developers made the difference by jumping at the opportunity to develop for browser engines that were open source.   


    The fundamental problem with your argument is that the main premise is that because there isn’t a better engine there will never be one so it doesn’t matter. The idea is just fundamentally flawed. Again, history as our guide. How many Mac users had heard of KHTML the week before Apple announced Safari? The answer is less than 1%. Few people on any platform had heard of it. But it’s the open source project that Apple forked and turned into WebKit. Yes there are a few popular web engines but there aren’t the only three and just like Apple forked KHTML, maybe the better WebKit is a forked WebKit.  We don’t know and we won’t know because there is literally no motivation to optimize anything for iOS. 

    As for your re-write of history. No, users didn’t move to Safari because it was open sourced. Most Mac users likely didn’t know nor care. They moved to it because it was  better.  Full stop. PC users did dump IE in a meaningful way until Chrome came along. 

    The whole reason we got into the IE mess was because Microsoft used their dominant platform to push their browser while making it difficult for competitors. KHTML based browsers hit the market in 1998 and had no impact. It wasn’t until 2003 when Apple used it for Safari that it started to break through. Apple is using its platform to maintain its browser engine’s dominance in a far more aggressive way that Microsoft. Breaking though was hard enough when there were two computing platforms to account for and one was abusing their dominance. It is even harder now that there are 4-ish platforms and one of dominant platforms has made completely impossible. 

    You are not seeing the forest for the trees.

    WebKit and Gecko are over 20 years old. Google forked Blink from WebKit over 10 years ago. Besides MS proprietary browser engines for IE (Edge), how many new browser engine  has there been since Blink? You can count them with one hand. So where did all these developers that wants to develop a new browser engine for iOS suddenly come from? Even Microsoft don't want to get into it anymore. They rather use open source Blink. The bottom line is there aren't any. It's a trap. They are trying to get Apple to allow third party browser engines so they can get Blink on to iOS, not any new browser engines. Once Blink is on iOS, it's game over for what little hope there is for any new browser engine that will run circles around Safari/WebKit. But there will be more browsers that will compete with Safari. And Blink is not new to Mac users. Mac users can use the Blink version of Chrome on MacOS and so far it hasn't been a game changer. What might be a game changer is AI. But you can bet that at least Google Blink will be on top of that.

    Developers are blaming Apple for not allowing third party browser engines on iOS as the reason why they aren't developing new browser engines for iOS, when in reality they have no interest in developing a new browser engine ... period. There's no money in it. Not when the 3 most popular ones we have are open source. Apple developed WebKit to enhance privacy and security (while on the internet) on their devices as a means to attract more sales of hardware. Google developed Blink because the more people using free Google anything, the more data they have to mine. Mozilla is a non-profit organization. What motives would any other developers have for developing a new browser engine ... for any OS?  The only one I can think of would be Huawei. They recently developed their own mobile OS for their phones and I can see them wanting to develop their own browser engine to go with it. Just like Apple and Google.

    It would be more believable if there were a few browser engines on Android which combined to captured maybe 20 - 25% market share (on Android). Browser engines which can be on iOS, if Apple allowed it. But Blink (on Android) have over 99% market share, with Gecko coming in a distance 2nd with .5% market share. So why aren't all these developers that wants to develop new browser engines for iOS, developing new browser engines for Android? Why so desperate want to develop a new browser engine  for 23% of the mobile market when they aren't developing new browser engines for over 70% of it. It is very silly to argue that since Apple only allowing third party browser engines in the very small limited EU market, it's not feasible to develop a new browser engine for iOS at all, when they aren't developing new browser engines for Android. And if they can't compete with Blink on Android, how are they going to compete with Blink on iOS, if Apple were to allow third party browser engines.

    I didn't mean to say users were glad to use an open source browser engine. I meant to say that  Mac users were able to dump IE because website developers were glad to develop for an open source browser engine. A classic case of ...... 'I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.' Robert McCloskey



    The only reason why Safari succeeded was because website developers were willing to develop for a browser engine that had maybe 3% of the market. (of course Apple also provided all the developmental resources to make it as effortless as possible.)  Where as they had to develop for MS proprietary browser engine Trident, because IE had over 90% of the market. The same was true when they willingly developed for Mozilla FireFox and later Chrome. But that scenario don't exist today. Even though Blink has more market share than than Trident (IE browser engine) had, website developers seems more than happy to remain loyal to Blink. Any new browser engine for iOS will have to deal with Blink, not WebKit. It's not Apple not allowing third party browser engine on iOS that makes it impossible for a new browser engine, it's having to compete with Blink. The more Blink market share increases, the harder it'll be to convince website developers to develop for a new browser engine that registers as "other", in market share. And what browser developers want to use a browser engine that website developers don't really need to develop for?


    thtdanox
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  • Reply 19 of 19
    darelrexdarelrex Posts: 151member
    Over two years after Apple implemented the DMA's requirement that EU companies (or companies with developers in the EU) be allowed to develop and deploy their own HTML rendering engines for iOS (in "competition" with Apple's), none of the firms that clamored for it have actually done it — because they were lying the whole time! What they really wanted was an opportunity to ram invasive, Trojan-horse spyware down the users' throats, and Apple has gone to great lengths to do what the DMA actually says, while not enabling what it doesn't.

    It will be interesting to see if the EU yet again fines Apple for violating the "spirit" of the law, meaning, "We weren't able to pass a law requiring you to allow invasive spyware, but you know that's we want, so just do it already, or we'll keep fining the hell out of you."
    thtdanoxwilliamlondonbeowulfschmidt
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