<strong>The only other thing that the Rage 128 doesn't have is much in the way of programmability. QE might depend on some of the same features that are being worked into OpenGL 2.0.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually that's not strictly true... the Rage128 supports pretty much the full OpenGL API, but it doesn't necessarily support all the hardware features required -- e.g. AGP system memory reads & writes. I don't know the facts on this one so I can't say for sure, but there is something in the back of my memory that hints at this
QE won't depend on shader programmability -- if it did only the Radeon8500, geForce3 and geForce4Ti would be supported.
Whether other hardware is supported right away probably depends on whether Apple added any driver extensions specifically for QE, or if it was built on an untouched OpenGL implementation. If there are extensions we'll have to rely on the 3rd parties to update their 3rd party drivers. If there aren't then if they have the capabilities they may work straight out of the box. If I were a betting man I'd bet on the former -- there are likely to be some features added to the OpenGL driver infrastructure which are required for QE.
Actually [the claim that the Rage 128 is not supported because it's not sufficiently programmable] not strictly true... the Rage128 supports pretty much the full OpenGL API, but it doesn't necessarily support all the hardware features required -- e.g. AGP system memory reads & writes. I don't know the facts on this one so I can't say for sure, but there is something in the back of my memory that hints at this
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, aside from the fact that I can't disagree with you right after I said I'd take you at your word , I agree that this is a more plausible explanation. I've heard it from a few reliable people at this point, including you.
I just had trouble believing that an AGP card wouldn't actually take advantage of the feature that's pretty much the whole point of AGP. Silly me.
Actually, wouldn't any window rendered (even by the CPU rather than the GPU) have to be moved into the video card memory to simply be drawn in the first place? Or is it only objects that are to be rendered by the GPU moved to the vid card memory?
Sounds more like the case may be: it *could* be computed by a rage128 or lower GPU, but at the speed those GPUs can calculate the blending (for transparencies and shadows) it would be slower than using the CPU in the first place.
I would guess that despite the fact that a rage128 can push polygons out faster than a 600MHz G3 could, it still can't do the blending effects as fast. After all, the GPU of our beloved iBooks runs at what? approximately 200MHz?
<strong>Yes, Amorph, the iBook is sweet (were you in 9?)
I bought it for the screen, form factor, Combo drive, and overclocking. I bought it with the intention of clocking it, which I'll do after graduation...
Yes, Junkyard Dawg, I think you're right, it is amazing how Apple is still in business! I think it is only because of people like us. They have a great product, and only people like us realize this, so we've turned into outspoken advocates. That, and look at their competitor. The only thing worse, could be Micro$oft using 12 year old kids to make their CDs. If they could make a profit doing it, they probably would. I can definitely see Apple pulling through and doubling market share within a few years, although I see this as dependent on how M$'s purchase of the American government goes, more than on Motorola CPUs. Things will work out somehow, they always have before.
And it's obsolescence Companies have to plan it. Apple does have to keep selling hardware... It's a necessary evil. Emphasis on the evil..</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL! d00d, that is some seriously funny sh!t! That part about the child labor was pure gravey!
But I hope you are right, that Apple is able to increase market share, even with their antiquated hardware.
It's so very odd, the enormous disparity between Apple's state of the art OS X, and their antiquated hardware. And the really bitchin' parts of OS X, like Quartz Extreme, rely on 3rd party video cards, NOT on Apple-branded hardware! LOL!
<strong>Actually, wouldn't any window rendered (even by the CPU rather than the GPU) have to be moved into the video card memory to simply be drawn in the first place? Or is it only objects that are to be rendered by the GPU moved to the vid card memory?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You evidently missed the whole discussion of how the whole point of AGP was so that graphics chips could read directly from system memory...
<strong>It's so very odd, the enormous disparity between Apple's state of the art OS X, and their antiquated hardware. And the really bitchin' parts of OS X, like Quartz Extreme, rely on 3rd party video cards, NOT on Apple-branded hardware! LOL!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very little of Apple's hardware is actually Apple's hardware. They mainly buy off-the-shelf parts and assemble/integrate them. The motherboard and its primary chipset are the main Apple components. In particular the thing which has been holding Apple back the most is the CPU, which is provided by Motorola (a 3rd party). When that component is upgraded I think we'll see the Apple chipset leap forward along with the components that it connects to.
The only other thing that the Rage 128 doesn't have is much in the way of programmability. QE might depend on some of the same features that are being worked into OpenGL 2.0.
It's not possible to get a definitive answer until someone who's actually worked on it at a low level breaks an NDA (and what are the odds?) but that's my best guess.
[/qote]
Amorph & Programmer, you said it! What you say Programmer, gives us iBook owners hope. However, as Amorph pointed out, we probably won't know until they tell us!
Paul, you misunderstand the whole point of QE. It isn't necessarily to "accelerate" Quartz, per se, especially on slower machines with anemic video cards, but simply to substitute the video card instead of the CPU doing all the heavy lifting, so the G3 can concentrate on OS X. And in the end, this will "accelerate" OS X. I am wondering what it would be like, though, while playing games or doing other graphics intensive work. Who gets priority, QE or other stuff? Is it simply a running process we can nice?
Programmer, Amorph, & Co. thanks for your shedding some light on QE. I'm afraid I have no clue when it comes to graphics, outside of working with them in REALBasic etc! I don't do hardware yet.
Yevgeny, I would definitely bet money on very cool iBook announcements, among others, this MWNY. This is one I'm considering going to! Oh, and J-Dog, I'm glad to see I got you laughing at M$! Too bad they're laughing too, all the way to the @#$&$%^ bank...
And the lack of QE Rage128 AGP support was not an arbitrary decision. (The Rage128 chip does not support texture sizes that are not a power of 2. That's why there's no QE support for the Rage128/Rage128 Mobility chips.)
<hr></blockquote>
Any idea why this puts the brakes on Quartz Extreme for iBooks Programmer, Amorph, or anyone? It looks like QE is going to evolve a into a hell of a lot more than just a way of utilizing a video card for GUI rendering. I recall someone mentioning 3D interfaces, for example. Also, they're using OpenGL, which is meant for 3D. Something radical is in store for us in the GM release of Jaguar. Because if QE were mere rendering of what we know today, I don't understand why all these differences between the Rage 128 and the newer cards matter. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong> I am wondering what it would be like, though, while playing games or doing other graphics intensive work. Who gets priority, QE or other stuff? Is it simply a running process we can nice?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Most games use fullscreen mode, in which case Quartz doesn't have to do anything at all. Running a game in windowed mode may present some problems as both the game and Quartz would be sharing GPU and vRAM resources, but I can't think of any reason to run a game in windowed mode. Loss of windowed mode is a small price to pay for hardware acceleration of Quartz.
Any idea why this puts the brakes on Quartz Extreme for iBooks Programmer, Amorph, or anyone? It looks like QE is going to evolve a into a hell of a lot more than just a way of utilizing a video card for GUI rendering. I recall someone mentioning 3D interfaces, for example. Also, they're using OpenGL, which is meant for 3D. Something radical is in store for us in the GM release of Jaguar. Because if QE were mere rendering of what we know today, I don't understand why all these differences between the Rage 128 and the newer cards matter. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well what they mean is that all the images that the Rage128 draws from (i.e. the source that it is copying to the screen) must have a height and width that is an exact power of 2: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, etc. Newer hardware can support any texture size (or at least much less limited).
You can imagine what it would be like if all your windows had to be one of these exact sizes.
I'm not sure that I buy this, however, since it is pretty simple math to just allocate the next larger size and then use the 3D hardware to extract a sub-rectangle of the image. We do this all the time and it works fine. You waste some memory, but in some ways you want to do this kind of controlled over allocation anyhow to reduce fragmentation and avoid re-allocating each and every time the buffer is resized.
I do believe that there were real technical reasons not to support the Rage128, I just don't think this would be the show stopper.
Most games use fullscreen mode, in which case Quartz doesn't have to do anything at all. Running a game in windowed mode may present some problems as both the game and Quartz would be sharing GPU and vRAM resources, but I can't think of any reason to run a game in windowed mode. Loss of windowed mode is a small price to pay for hardware acceleration of Quartz.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Or it will work better than it does now because it will all be integrated.
I was getting extremely pissed off with my iBook 14inch and OSX. I had just spent a LOT of money and stuff is just slow.
Im happy to say that with Jaguar, Quartz Extreme or not, its all good. If this is just a taste of what is to come, Jaguar and iBooks will be just fine.
I have 384MB ram and everything 'feels' the way it should... almost. Still, its great to see Apple isnt fvcking this up.
Programmer, are you saying that it's not just Apple's arbitrary decision to keep us buying new hardware, that the Rage 128 just can't do QE?
ZO, you're right, Jaguar sure looks like the final culmination of all the hard work Apple and NeXT have done since their inceptions. But even with the 600mhz CPU / 100 mhz bus OS X was slow? How much faster was it than the 500/66? I'm right in the middle of overclocking my iBook, I just had to do it. Man, this poor case got scratched! It was already beaten to @#$^$# because I got it from Circuit City as a display model. What can I take out the scratches with!? It needs to be as beautiful on the outside as on the inside iBooks are really cool! I've never done anything with hardware before, except maybe install RAM or drives! I'm hoping for good luck with some "solder weld" I got from Radio Shack, where it comes in a syringe (no soldering iron.)
i want to disagree with this, my g3 tower right now has all its panels ripped off, a radeon, xtra ram, new cdrw, no modem or firewire controller, and an overclocked cpu... case mods are on the way
not to mention the infinite hackability of os x...
<strong>Programmer, are you saying that it's not just Apple's arbitrary decision to keep us buying new hardware, that the Rage 128 just can't do QE?
ZO, you're right, Jaguar sure looks like the final culmination of all the hard work Apple and NeXT have done since their inceptions. But even with the 600mhz CPU / 100 mhz bus OS X was slow? How much faster was it than the 500/66? I'm right in the middle of overclocking my iBook, I just had to do it. Man, this poor case got scratched! It was already beaten to @#$^$# because I got it from Circuit City as a display model. What can I take out the scratches with!? It needs to be as beautiful on the outside as on the inside iBooks are really cool! I've never done anything with hardware before, except maybe install RAM or drives! I'm hoping for good luck with some "solder weld" I got from Radio Shack, where it comes in a syringe (no soldering iron.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>Programmer, are you saying that it's not just Apple's arbitrary decision to keep us buying new hardware, that the Rage 128 just can't do QE?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>The only other thing that the Rage 128 doesn't have is much in the way of programmability. QE might depend on some of the same features that are being worked into OpenGL 2.0.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually that's not strictly true... the Rage128 supports pretty much the full OpenGL API, but it doesn't necessarily support all the hardware features required -- e.g. AGP system memory reads & writes. I don't know the facts on this one so I can't say for sure, but there is something in the back of my memory that hints at this
QE won't depend on shader programmability -- if it did only the Radeon8500, geForce3 and geForce4Ti would be supported.
Whether other hardware is supported right away probably depends on whether Apple added any driver extensions specifically for QE, or if it was built on an untouched OpenGL implementation. If there are extensions we'll have to rely on the 3rd parties to update their 3rd party drivers. If there aren't then if they have the capabilities they may work straight out of the box. If I were a betting man I'd bet on the former -- there are likely to be some features added to the OpenGL driver infrastructure which are required for QE.
<strong>
Actually [the claim that the Rage 128 is not supported because it's not sufficiently programmable] not strictly true... the Rage128 supports pretty much the full OpenGL API, but it doesn't necessarily support all the hardware features required -- e.g. AGP system memory reads & writes. I don't know the facts on this one so I can't say for sure, but there is something in the back of my memory that hints at this
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, aside from the fact that I can't disagree with you right after I said I'd take you at your word
I just had trouble believing that an AGP card wouldn't actually take advantage of the feature that's pretty much the whole point of AGP. Silly me.
Sounds more like the case may be: it *could* be computed by a rage128 or lower GPU, but at the speed those GPUs can calculate the blending (for transparencies and shadows) it would be slower than using the CPU in the first place.
I would guess that despite the fact that a rage128 can push polygons out faster than a 600MHz G3 could, it still can't do the blending effects as fast. After all, the GPU of our beloved iBooks runs at what? approximately 200MHz?
<strong>Yes, Amorph, the iBook is sweet (were you in 9?)
I bought it for the screen, form factor, Combo drive, and overclocking. I bought it with the intention of clocking it, which I'll do after graduation...
Yes, Junkyard Dawg, I think you're right, it is amazing how Apple is still in business! I think it is only because of people like us. They have a great product, and only people like us realize this, so we've turned into outspoken advocates. That, and look at their competitor. The only thing worse, could be Micro$oft using 12 year old kids to make their CDs. If they could make a profit doing it, they probably would. I can definitely see Apple pulling through and doubling market share within a few years, although I see this as dependent on how M$'s purchase of the American government goes, more than on Motorola CPUs. Things will work out somehow, they always have before.
And it's obsolescence
LOL! d00d, that is some seriously funny sh!t! That part about the child labor was pure gravey!
But I hope you are right, that Apple is able to increase market share, even with their antiquated hardware.
It's so very odd, the enormous disparity between Apple's state of the art OS X, and their antiquated hardware. And the really bitchin' parts of OS X, like Quartz Extreme, rely on 3rd party video cards, NOT on Apple-branded hardware! LOL!
<strong>Actually, wouldn't any window rendered (even by the CPU rather than the GPU) have to be moved into the video card memory to simply be drawn in the first place? Or is it only objects that are to be rendered by the GPU moved to the vid card memory?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You evidently missed the whole discussion of how the whole point of AGP was so that graphics chips could read directly from system memory...
<strong>It's so very odd, the enormous disparity between Apple's state of the art OS X, and their antiquated hardware. And the really bitchin' parts of OS X, like Quartz Extreme, rely on 3rd party video cards, NOT on Apple-branded hardware! LOL!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very little of Apple's hardware is actually Apple's hardware. They mainly buy off-the-shelf parts and assemble/integrate them. The motherboard and its primary chipset are the main Apple components. In particular the thing which has been holding Apple back the most is the CPU, which is provided by Motorola (a 3rd party). When that component is upgraded I think we'll see the Apple chipset leap forward along with the components that it connects to.
The only other thing that the Rage 128 doesn't have is much in the way of programmability. QE might depend on some of the same features that are being worked into OpenGL 2.0.
It's not possible to get a definitive answer until someone who's actually worked on it at a low level breaks an NDA (and what are the odds?) but that's my best guess.
[/qote]
Amorph & Programmer, you said it! What you say Programmer, gives us iBook owners hope. However, as Amorph pointed out, we probably won't know until they tell us!
Paul, you misunderstand the whole point of QE. It isn't necessarily to "accelerate" Quartz, per se, especially on slower machines with anemic video cards, but simply to substitute the video card instead of the CPU doing all the heavy lifting, so the G3 can concentrate on OS X. And in the end, this will "accelerate" OS X. I am wondering what it would be like, though, while playing games or doing other graphics intensive work. Who gets priority, QE or other stuff? Is it simply a running process we can nice?
Programmer, Amorph, & Co. thanks for your shedding some light on QE. I'm afraid I have no clue when it comes to graphics, outside of working with them in REALBasic etc!
Yevgeny, I would definitely bet money on very cool iBook announcements, among others, this MWNY. This is one I'm considering going to! Oh, and J-Dog, I'm glad to see I got you laughing at M$! Too bad they're laughing too, all the way to the @#$&$%^ bank...
This just appeared on xlr8yourmac.com:
[quote]
And the lack of QE Rage128 AGP support was not an arbitrary decision. (The Rage128 chip does not support texture sizes that are not a power of 2. That's why there's no QE support for the Rage128/Rage128 Mobility chips.)
<hr></blockquote>
Any idea why this puts the brakes on Quartz Extreme for iBooks Programmer, Amorph, or anyone? It looks like QE is going to evolve a into a hell of a lot more than just a way of utilizing a video card for GUI rendering. I recall someone mentioning 3D interfaces, for example. Also, they're using OpenGL, which is meant for 3D. Something radical is in store for us in the GM release of Jaguar. Because if QE were mere rendering of what we know today, I don't understand why all these differences between the Rage 128 and the newer cards matter. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong> I am wondering what it would be like, though, while playing games or doing other graphics intensive work. Who gets priority, QE or other stuff? Is it simply a running process we can nice?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Most games use fullscreen mode, in which case Quartz doesn't have to do anything at all. Running a game in windowed mode may present some problems as both the game and Quartz would be sharing GPU and vRAM resources, but I can't think of any reason to run a game in windowed mode. Loss of windowed mode is a small price to pay for hardware acceleration of Quartz.
<strong>^Bump^
This just appeared on xlr8yourmac.com:
Any idea why this puts the brakes on Quartz Extreme for iBooks Programmer, Amorph, or anyone? It looks like QE is going to evolve a into a hell of a lot more than just a way of utilizing a video card for GUI rendering. I recall someone mentioning 3D interfaces, for example. Also, they're using OpenGL, which is meant for 3D. Something radical is in store for us in the GM release of Jaguar. Because if QE were mere rendering of what we know today, I don't understand why all these differences between the Rage 128 and the newer cards matter.
Well what they mean is that all the images that the Rage128 draws from (i.e. the source that it is copying to the screen) must have a height and width that is an exact power of 2: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, etc. Newer hardware can support any texture size (or at least much less limited).
You can imagine what it would be like if all your windows had to be one of these exact sizes.
I'm not sure that I buy this, however, since it is pretty simple math to just allocate the next larger size and then use the 3D hardware to extract a sub-rectangle of the image. We do this all the time and it works fine. You waste some memory, but in some ways you want to do this kind of controlled over allocation anyhow to reduce fragmentation and avoid re-allocating each and every time the buffer is resized.
I do believe that there were real technical reasons not to support the Rage128, I just don't think this would be the show stopper.
<strong>
Most games use fullscreen mode, in which case Quartz doesn't have to do anything at all. Running a game in windowed mode may present some problems as both the game and Quartz would be sharing GPU and vRAM resources, but I can't think of any reason to run a game in windowed mode. Loss of windowed mode is a small price to pay for hardware acceleration of Quartz.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Or it will work better than it does now because it will all be integrated.
Im happy to say that with Jaguar, Quartz Extreme or not, its all good. If this is just a taste of what is to come, Jaguar and iBooks will be just fine.
I have 384MB ram and everything 'feels' the way it should... almost. Still, its great to see Apple isnt fvcking this up.
<strong>
Enough said?!?!?!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
yes.
new computer time...
ZO, you're right, Jaguar sure looks like the final culmination of all the hard work Apple and NeXT have done since their inceptions. But even with the 600mhz CPU / 100 mhz bus OS X was slow? How much faster was it than the 500/66? I'm right in the middle of overclocking my iBook, I just had to do it. Man, this poor case got scratched! It was already beaten to @#$^$# because I got it from Circuit City as a display model. What can I take out the scratches with!? It needs to be as beautiful on the outside as on the inside
<strong>The Mac has never been a hardware hackers machine (and it never will be - sans the Power Computing years).
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
i want to disagree with this, my g3 tower right now has all its panels ripped off, a radeon, xtra ram, new cdrw, no modem or firewire controller, and an overclocked cpu... case mods are on the way
not to mention the infinite hackability of os x...
<strong>Programmer, are you saying that it's not just Apple's arbitrary decision to keep us buying new hardware, that the Rage 128 just can't do QE?
ZO, you're right, Jaguar sure looks like the final culmination of all the hard work Apple and NeXT have done since their inceptions. But even with the 600mhz CPU / 100 mhz bus OS X was slow? How much faster was it than the 500/66? I'm right in the middle of overclocking my iBook, I just had to do it. Man, this poor case got scratched! It was already beaten to @#$^$# because I got it from Circuit City as a display model. What can I take out the scratches with!? It needs to be as beautiful on the outside as on the inside
bondo?
And how can I get those evil scratches off my iBook? :eek:
Eugene posted in another thread that Jaguar was slower on a 500mhz iMac SE (no QE)! I really want to see some loophole that would let iBooks run QE.
<strong>Programmer, are you saying that it's not just Apple's arbitrary decision to keep us buying new hardware, that the Rage 128 just can't do QE?</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's what I'm saying alright.