What, in all reality and seriousness, would Apple theoretically have to come out with at MWSF or MWTO to get your RESPECT back?
Make iMacs upgradable (at least video card wize), make G4s upgradable chipwize, sell individual motherboards and allow you to upgrade your motherboard (this is REALLY stretching it, but Im fed up). Slash the prices of iMacs to the point where they are on par with PCs of the same speed zone (or just upgrade iMacs to the point where they are equal).
Screw the cases and release afforable expandable macs, that would do it. Bring back the 9600.
LOL, there's no way a G5 PowerMac could ever be sold that cheaply from Apple. If the G5s are 64-bit CPUs, PowerMac prices will likely INCREASE a tad in price. If they're 32, they will probbaly stay where they are now.
With the iMac and PowerMacs (G4 or G5), price/performance will hopefully obliterate PCs beginning at MWSF.
Screw the cases and release afforable expandable macs, that would do it. Bring back the 9600.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Man, are you NUTS? I'd sell my mama, but not my G4 case...Okay. Admitted. An hour ago I was whining about price (Junkyard boy, I liked your point about students! ), and we ARE paying for the cool design, that's for sure. So yea, bring back the 9600. But could then somebody lend me some money so that I can employ J. Ives and produce kickin'ass enclosures for the affecionados among us (that would be...all?)
<strong>As an Apple shareholder (whose shares have gone up 70% in two months thanks in no small part to the iPod), Apple CERTAINLY wouldn't get ANY of my respect if they priced the iPod at $249 from the outset. [...] Apple seems to have proven in every single one of its recent products for decreasing the "ignorance" factor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey tonton. I think the information provided wsa quite interesting, but honestly not very visionary. Whatever, I strongly agree with you that Apple has done well with every single of their last products. But I thought we're talkin' LONGTERM here, as we all seem to have enough respect to donate our time to here to Apple. It would be new to me that Stockmarket value alone is an indicator for any longterm development. And in your post I think you underestimate a little the FUTURE usergroups of Macintosh Computers. Who is the founder of any consultancy which still uses Apple? People who usually were there when Apple still was superior. Who is it going to be tomorrow? The guys I study with. Do they use macs? NO. Why? Bad value for money, they say. Obviously morons, agreed. BUT I can't say it often enough: Apple really shouldn't rely on their Image as it has been created 10 or 15 years ago. Apple should just think a little different from the normal tracks, and really develop products which make US truly addictive to them. At the moment, they are loosing it. I can only speak for myself, and I am surely NOT addicted to machines which cost triple the money and make me spend triple the time in front of it. And hey: Designers with MP3 players...Maybe in my spare time. I need hardcore SPEED. At a good price. After all, it's a computer, and not a religion
<strong> [...] or according to the whim of a couple of students who know they can't convince their parents to shell out $399 for a purely entertainment oriented device.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That was the best one today and a very good post tonton, thankyou!
figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point</strong><hr></blockquote>
Alright, applenut. Apple's margins are like, what, 30% on the PM? Perhaps more...I heard thirty was just the AVERAGE....
Anyway, 30% of 3499 is $1049.70......subtract that from 3499 and we have 2449.30.....and they charge 2700 for a developer's discount on a PM Dual.......right? That is only if we figure 30%....it could be even more.....i would assume it is not less, or if it is, not much less.....
I agree with you JD, Apple needs to focus more on the education side.
I have been a loyal Apple user since I was 11, my last computer being a IIvx which I have just donated to my younger sister. I am now a PhD student and can afford something a little more powerful and I am looking after SF to see what wil happen.
I figure that this kind of demographic is where Apple could really succeed (I know it already does in schools). Some of my friends, who have been Apple fans for years simply cannot afford to stay loyal to a company that charges more for a computer that performs the same as a 'faster' PC for most of the functions required for it (and don't give me any BS about the Mhz myth - I am intelligent enough to work out the numbers).
If Apple offered a greater incentive to the younger people, then they would see their market mature and this would seed Apple as a marque for future generations to admire. They need to regain this 'respect' in these people.
I am eagerly looking forward to MWSF, I hope that Apple can deliver the G5 (which, incidentally I do believe is coming very soon) and this may relieve the bottleneck that has been building behind the G4 (a gain of 367 Mhz in two years - WTF??).
I love all of Apple's products, but they need to pull the finger out of their ass. Men cannot live on beer alone.
I'm really begining to hear a lot of cry-babies in this thread. Comments about only respecting Apple if their products are faster than PC's, if their margins are lowered, if they build exactly what you want. QUIT YOUR CRYING!!
Apple is in business to be profitable. They have high margins because they can. Dell, Gateway, and the other PC manufacturers have to compete directly against each other and that's why they have such LOW profit margins. They PC manufacturers also have NO OVERHEAD compared to Apple. Look at the following points please.
1) System Design
PC manufacturers do very minimal design, they use of the shelf Mobo's and chipsets. All they do is come up with a configuration.
Apple on the other hand designs it own (or contracts out) mobo's and chipsets.
2)Processor
PC mfg's have no involvement other than being a middle man for AMD and Intel.
Apple invests money and man power, they even help steer the direction of the chips.
3)Industrial Design
PC mfg's for the most part use industry standard cases.
Apple uses custom designs for all it's products. This is not a waste of money because Apples designs are very user friendly and useful, not just good looking.
4)Operating System
PC mfg's, do I even have to say anything here?
Apple, do I even have to say anything here?
I'm sure I could come up with more if I wanted to. The point is that all of the above things cost money, but they also add value.
Let's face it, plug and play is only plug and play on Apple. That is due to Apple doing the system design, integration, and OS development. Altivec performance is another plus from tight integration in design. The other big plus here is Apple can push the industry in the direction it likes, not what the mobo makers and chipset designers say. Who pushed CD-ROMs, USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and other things as standard equipment (very small example). What kind of crappy hardware would we have if it were left to the PC industry to decide standards (oxy moron).
So what do the 4 things listed have in common? They all cost big bucks in R&D. I don't know how Apple pricing works, maybe someone can help. Some company's price R&D directly into product cost, others do not and have it as a seperate line item. Either way there is a lot of R&D that doesn't go into the cost of machines because it is for failed projects, or backup plans, alternate designs, etc... This is taken of the top of the profit margin. So while the profit margin looks good, it's not as juicy as you think it is.
I guess what it all comes down to is this. I RESPECT APPLE, because of all the great things they have single-handedly done for the industry and all the things the continue to do and will undoubtedly do in the future. I RESPECT APPLE because they have made great hardware and software in the past and will again in the future.
So they hit real hard times with the G4 and the saga of the AIM PPC alliance. How dare they not be a perfect company and always be number one. How dare they charge more for a product which could be compared to a hand built auto vs a cookie cutter detroit factory line auto.
Do you people understand the meaning of the word value??? Or do you understand the meaning of the word cheap?? Premiums are paid for the finer things in life and my Macintosh is one of them. So it's not the top of the heap in power right now, and maybe it never will be, but it will always be a Macintosh. I'll take that over a PC anyday.
There is also the possibility that Toshiba is retailing them at a very high mark-up, and why wouldn't they? Have you seen what small removable stroage goes for in the pro digital image market? Even at 499, that card is a great deal for Pro photographers. Apple probably gets a decent wholesale deal, but it's still expensive because the supply is limited. Toshiba may not even want to supply too many to third parties like Apple if it takes away from it's own high margin sales. So, there is certainly room for a big price drop on that drive, but not for another 6-12 months when Toshiba can start to make more money on volume.
ASIDE: Apparently, the drive comes in two carriers, a PC-card interface, and one that looks almost the same with a similar steel case, but has IDE. Which one does Apple use?
So, Apple has actually increased it's margins at a time when the rest of the industry was cutting them back due to competition, poor forcasts, and a slow economy. Pretty good brand. Pretty solid investment, but damn hard on consumers. Considering most of the parts in their desktops are dirt cheap, their prices are a crime. I'd only buy two things from Apple: their laptops, and their shares.
Thanks Zeus but [already forgot name ... one of those days, sigh] the guy who said don't compare gross with net is right.
They are not making 30% after cost, they are making 30% before cost. $66 million on $1.45 billion is not ... Apples to Apples when you are claiming 30% profit. If Apple made 30% profit they would have more than 4 billion in the bank.
Exactly Bogie, Margin and profit are differnet things. I guess that means that Apple doesn't include R&D and other overhead expenses in it's "Gross Margin" which is the percent of sale price over cost to build (labor & parts only).
When I was in estimating determining the cost of manufacturing something I was blown away. Some things are very inexpensive (component costs), but add labor for the people building them, machines to surface mount and through hole and flow and selective solder and wash and test. It varies, but don't kid yourself and only look at component costs.
So in that report does it list if Apple line items R&D???? I'm going to have to go check it out.....
Comments
Make iMacs upgradable (at least video card wize), make G4s upgradable chipwize, sell individual motherboards and allow you to upgrade your motherboard (this is REALLY stretching it, but Im fed up). Slash the prices of iMacs to the point where they are on par with PCs of the same speed zone (or just upgrade iMacs to the point where they are equal).
Screw the cases and release afforable expandable macs, that would do it. Bring back the 9600.
With the iMac and PowerMacs (G4 or G5), price/performance will hopefully obliterate PCs beginning at MWSF.
<strong>[i][...]
Screw the cases and release afforable expandable macs, that would do it. Bring back the 9600.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Man, are you NUTS? I'd sell my mama, but not my G4 case...Okay. Admitted. An hour ago I was whining about price (Junkyard boy, I liked your point about students! ), and we ARE paying for the cool design, that's for sure. So yea, bring back the 9600. But could then somebody lend me some money so that I can employ J. Ives and produce kickin'ass enclosures for the affecionados among us (that would be...all?)
Regards, H
***
Faster
***
1.0 GHz PowerPC G5, optional dual processor config $300 extra
512MB L2 cache & 2MB L3 cache
400 MHz system bus
256 MB DDR memory expandable to 16 GB
40 GB Ultra ATA drive
NVIDIA GeForce2 standard, GeForce3 $300 extra
Combo CD-RW drive standard, SuperDrive $200 extra
Modified QuickSilver case with two CD size drive bays
Gigabit Ethernet
Three 800Mbit/sec FireWire ports
Three USB ports
56K internal modem
Apple Pro Keyboard, Apple Pro Mouse
$1699
***
Fastest
***
1.2 GHz PowerPC G5, optional dual processor config $500 extra
512MB L2 cache & 4MB L3 cache
400 MHz system bus
384 MB DDR memory expandable to 16 GB
60 GB Ultra ATA drive
NVIDIA GeForce2 MX w/TwinView standard, GeForce3 $200 extra
Combo CD-RW drive standard, SuperDrive $200 extra
Modified QuickSilver case with two CD size drive bays
Gigabit Ethernet
Three 800Mbit/sec FireWire ports
Three USB ports
56K internal modem
Apple Pro Keyboard, Apple Pro Mouse
$2199
***
Ultimate
***
1.4 GHz PowerPC G5, optional dual processor config $700 extra
512 MB L2 cache & 8 MB L3 cache
400 MHz system bus
512 MB DDR memory expandable to 16 GB
80 GB Ultra ATA drive
GeForce3
SuperDrive
Modified QuickSilver case with two CD size drive bays
Gigabit Ethernet
Three 800Mbit/sec FireWire ports
Three USB ports
56K internal modem
Apple Pro Keyboard, Apple Pro Mouse
$2999
<strong>
WTF ever, dude. It might cost US that much....it probably costs them $150.00.</strong><hr></blockquote>
like a Senior trying weasel is way outta a tip... just reminded me of that...
<strong>As an Apple shareholder (whose shares have gone up 70% in two months thanks in no small part to the iPod), Apple CERTAINLY wouldn't get ANY of my respect if they priced the iPod at $249 from the outset. [...] Apple seems to have proven in every single one of its recent products for decreasing the "ignorance" factor.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey tonton. I think the information provided wsa quite interesting, but honestly not very visionary. Whatever, I strongly agree with you that Apple has done well with every single of their last products. But I thought we're talkin' LONGTERM here, as we all seem to have enough respect to donate our time to here to Apple. It would be new to me that Stockmarket value alone is an indicator for any longterm development. And in your post I think you underestimate a little the FUTURE usergroups of Macintosh Computers. Who is the founder of any consultancy which still uses Apple? People who usually were there when Apple still was superior. Who is it going to be tomorrow? The guys I study with. Do they use macs? NO. Why? Bad value for money, they say. Obviously morons, agreed. BUT I can't say it often enough: Apple really shouldn't rely on their Image as it has been created 10 or 15 years ago. Apple should just think a little different from the normal tracks, and really develop products which make US truly addictive to them. At the moment, they are loosing it. I can only speak for myself, and I am surely NOT addicted to machines which cost triple the money and make me spend triple the time in front of it. And hey: Designers with MP3 players...Maybe in my spare time. I need hardcore SPEED. At a good price. After all, it's a computer, and not a religion
<strong> [...] or according to the whim of a couple of students who know they can't convince their parents to shell out $399 for a purely entertainment oriented device.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That was the best one today
<strong>
figure in their reported margins and you'll get the figures they offer developers. employees also get their hardware at cost and its the SAME exact product list. so please, I've provided my info. If you're going to keep telling me I'm wrong you're gonna have to do a better job defending your point</strong><hr></blockquote>
Alright, applenut. Apple's margins are like, what, 30% on the PM? Perhaps more...I heard thirty was just the AVERAGE....
Anyway, 30% of 3499 is $1049.70......subtract that from 3499 and we have 2449.30.....and they charge 2700 for a developer's discount on a PM Dual.......right? That is only if we figure 30%....it could be even more.....i would assume it is not less, or if it is, not much less.....
How's that?
I have been a loyal Apple user since I was 11, my last computer being a IIvx which I have just donated to my younger sister. I am now a PhD student and can afford something a little more powerful and I am looking after SF to see what wil happen.
I figure that this kind of demographic is where Apple could really succeed (I know it already does in schools). Some of my friends, who have been Apple fans for years simply cannot afford to stay loyal to a company that charges more for a computer that performs the same as a 'faster' PC for most of the functions required for it (and don't give me any BS about the Mhz myth - I am intelligent enough to work out the numbers).
If Apple offered a greater incentive to the younger people, then they would see their market mature and this would seed Apple as a marque for future generations to admire. They need to regain this 'respect' in these people.
I am eagerly looking forward to MWSF, I hope that Apple can deliver the G5 (which, incidentally I do believe is coming very soon) and this may relieve the bottleneck that has been building behind the G4 (a gain of 367 Mhz in two years - WTF??).
I love all of Apple's products, but they need to pull the finger out of their ass. Men cannot live on beer alone.
Apple is in business to be profitable. They have high margins because they can. Dell, Gateway, and the other PC manufacturers have to compete directly against each other and that's why they have such LOW profit margins. They PC manufacturers also have NO OVERHEAD compared to Apple. Look at the following points please.
1) System Design
PC manufacturers do very minimal design, they use of the shelf Mobo's and chipsets. All they do is come up with a configuration.
Apple on the other hand designs it own (or contracts out) mobo's and chipsets.
2)Processor
PC mfg's have no involvement other than being a middle man for AMD and Intel.
Apple invests money and man power, they even help steer the direction of the chips.
3)Industrial Design
PC mfg's for the most part use industry standard cases.
Apple uses custom designs for all it's products. This is not a waste of money because Apples designs are very user friendly and useful, not just good looking.
4)Operating System
PC mfg's, do I even have to say anything here?
Apple, do I even have to say anything here?
I'm sure I could come up with more if I wanted to. The point is that all of the above things cost money, but they also add value.
Let's face it, plug and play is only plug and play on Apple. That is due to Apple doing the system design, integration, and OS development. Altivec performance is another plus from tight integration in design. The other big plus here is Apple can push the industry in the direction it likes, not what the mobo makers and chipset designers say. Who pushed CD-ROMs, USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and other things as standard equipment (very small example). What kind of crappy hardware would we have if it were left to the PC industry to decide standards (oxy moron).
So what do the 4 things listed have in common? They all cost big bucks in R&D. I don't know how Apple pricing works, maybe someone can help. Some company's price R&D directly into product cost, others do not and have it as a seperate line item. Either way there is a lot of R&D that doesn't go into the cost of machines because it is for failed projects, or backup plans, alternate designs, etc... This is taken of the top of the profit margin. So while the profit margin looks good, it's not as juicy as you think it is.
I guess what it all comes down to is this. I RESPECT APPLE, because of all the great things they have single-handedly done for the industry and all the things the continue to do and will undoubtedly do in the future. I RESPECT APPLE because they have made great hardware and software in the past and will again in the future.
So they hit real hard times with the G4 and the saga of the AIM PPC alliance. How dare they not be a perfect company and always be number one. How dare they charge more for a product which could be compared to a hand built auto vs a cookie cutter detroit factory line auto.
Do you people understand the meaning of the word value??? Or do you understand the meaning of the word cheap?? Premiums are paid for the finer things in life and my Macintosh is one of them. So it's not the top of the heap in power right now, and maybe it never will be, but it will always be a Macintosh. I'll take that over a PC anyday.
Dual 1.4 GHz G5
and single 1.2GHz G5, for less than 1500$
Prices on the upper two models not in excess of 3500$.
Also nice was 64bit OS X with 64bit G5, but that's at least 6 months away.
And: stop selling any Mac with less than 256MB of RAM built in. Otherwise sell them with 0MB and let us do it ourselves.
G-news
ASIDE: Apparently, the drive comes in two carriers, a PC-card interface, and one that looks almost the same with a similar steel case, but has IDE. Which one does Apple use?
I mean people aren't even saying them with confidence now they are just saying .... well, its like, gotta be this ... right?
Give me a break, are some people in here just dolts?
Where can I get some real margin numbers from, please direct me, then we could stop talking out of our asses and have a meaningful discussion.
Did I swear enough to get the necessary attention?
<strong>Can someone please tell me where they get these bullshit margin numbers from?
I mean people aren't even saying them with confidence now they are just saying .... well, its like, gotta be this ... right?
Give me a break, are some people in here just dolts?
Where can I get some real margin numbers from, please direct me, then we could stop talking out of our asses and have a meaningful discussion.
Did I swear enough to get the necessary attention?</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/oct/17results.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2001/oct/17results.html</a>;
This is the earnings press release from the 4th quarter 2001. The first paragraph states:
[quote]<strong>
...gross margins were 30.1 percent, compared to 25.0 percent in the year ago quarter.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: MasterZeus ]</p>
<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/c815/main.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/c815/main.shtml</a>;
<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/priusdeck/main.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/priusdeck/main.shtml</a>;
But with a $1499 US price tag....
[QB]The first paragraph states: gross margins were 30.1 percent[QB]<hr></blockquote>
What I read is this:
[quote]For the quarter, the Company posted a net profit of $66 million [...] Revenues for the quarter were $1.45 billion <hr></blockquote>
Margin is 4.7%. Don't confuse margin with gross margin!
They are not making 30% after cost, they are making 30% before cost. $66 million on $1.45 billion is not ... Apples to Apples when you are claiming 30% profit. If Apple made 30% profit they would have more than 4 billion in the bank.
When I was in estimating determining the cost of manufacturing something I was blown away. Some things are very inexpensive (component costs), but add labor for the people building them, machines to surface mount and through hole and flow and selective solder and wash and test. It varies, but don't kid yourself and only look at component costs.
So in that report does it list if Apple line items R&D???? I'm going to have to go check it out.....