Appleinsider as a verb is when you dare say something innocent like "I wish Apple would give users more desktop pictures to choose from" and you then get blindsided with things like "If you can't just open up Photoshop and make your own then you shouldn't be using Macs!" or "You can drag and drop any image you find on the web and use it a your desktop picture" or "They take up too much memory, just use gray!"...
Contextual menues are great for doing stuff that either is far away (like deep inside a menu) or have something to di with what your arrow is over at the moment (like Save picture, open frame in new window. You get it). Don´t clutter it up with things you just have to move your mouse to the top left corner of the window to achieve.
Another example of half-assedness in Safari is, although you can select some text and right click it to choose "Search Google" (which is great), you can't alternatively drag the text to the Google search field. But yet you -can- drag links to the URL field? I don't argue that dragging URLs to the URL field is useless or excessive; only that the Google field should allow the same drag and drop functionality.
Far from being "bloat", this is another missing quintessential Macintosh feature.
The Macintosh is about multiple ways of doing the same thing, utilizing menu commands, keyboard commands, contextual menu commands, buttons and drag and drop.
Saying only one of these is necessary and the others are "bloat" or "feature creep" is undermining the Macintosh by forcing all users to use one method, rather than the method that they deem to be best for them.
(This is coming from a guy that uses a 2 button mouse, and a trackpad and a keyboard and a Wacom tablet on his iBook...I like options)
There was never a rule that said contextual menus can only contain only that which is relevant to the selected or underlying item. There are many instances of menus that contain general commands that don't pertain to the current item although more so in Mac OS 9. There does seem to be a massive cleanup of contextual menus, especially in Panther. It's a trend I like for the most part, especially getting rid of that damned Help command that would always get selected by accident due to menu lag.
But the Aqua Human Interface Guidelines are just that, guidelines. Not rules or laws. If a contextual menu item can meet the expectations of the majority of users (as opposed to disappointing them by its absence) or if it can aid the user (by saving them from having to move the mouse far or use the keyboard with both hands) then it should be used.
Quote:
Contextual menus are great for doing stuff that either is A. far away or B. have something to do with what your arrow is over at the moment
(edited by me)
A. One's arrow is usually near the scroll bar or window resize widget at the lower right, in normal web usage. This means that the cursor is always far from the top left, where Back and Forward buttons are. (This is why the close button is always on the top left of windows; it's inherently far away from the typical cursor positions - GUI Design 101)
B. One's arrow is over the web page document at all times, whether they are also over text or an image. Back and Forward pertain to the web document as a whole. Ergo it should be in a contextual menu.
I can think of nothing more pertinent to the current web browser document in a window than location, including Back and Forward. If View Source is pertinent (something novice and most average users never use), then so are Back and Forward.
One more annoying Safari thing...(Keep in mind though that I love Safari and use it exclusively)...the Back and Forward buttons have the wonderful ability to show their history menus for each when you click and hold. I just lament the fact that I'm positive not enough users know about it to benefit from it. It's just too subtle. I can't imagine them with little downward triangles though....that would be too many triangles. So how to make this feature more obvious?
heh... yeah.. actually i have been using the 3rd beta since it came out and all the sneakypeeks before that
I actually didn't even check to see if OW had back and fwd in their contextual menus (and it does ) and I just assumed camino would do the trick...
OW has always been my favorite browsers and one of the MAIN reasons why I switched to X-actually I even bought a license for it before I even ran ten...
Originally posted by johnq A. One's arrow is usually near the scroll bar or window resize widget at the lower right, in normal web usage. This means that the cursor is always far from the top left, where Back and Forward buttons are. (This is why the close button is always on the top left of windows; it's inherently far away from the typical cursor positions - GUI Design 101) [/B]
Thats why I gave deep inside a menu as an example. When I wrote far away I meant "Not visible". When a forward and backward button is visible on the GUI I think its better to use the menu for other things ("Print this frame" would have more use IMO)
Quote:
Originally posted by johnq B. One's arrow is over the web page document at all times, whether they are also over text or an image. Back and Forward pertain to the web document as a whole. Ergo it should be in a contextual menu.[/B]
I think you undestand what I meant. The mouse position shows what part of the page I am interested in right now (frame, picture, link, word, line...). Forward and back doesn´t even have anything to do with the current page but other pages.
see where i'm going with this...contexual menu items should be used VERY sparingly...i dont think it would be good to just stick tons of options into safari CMI's
see where i'm going with this...contexual menu items should be used VERY sparingly...i dont think it would be good to just stick tons of options into safari CMI's
You're very right. Unfortunately, companies like Opera Software do not understand that.
I wouldn't want a "Not Invented Here" attitude to limit the Mac user experience.
And I'm not necessarily for or against Apple adding these features to the contextual menu. I'm just pointing out that Apple's way is to use keyboard short cuts before contextual menus. I think this is a better way of organizing a program because after months of use, the programmer can get a better feel for what would be optimal in the contextual menu.
"And I'm not necessarily for or against Apple adding these features to the contextual menu. I'm just pointing out that Apple's way is to use keyboard short cuts before contextual menus. I think this is a better way of organizing a program because after months of use, the programmer can get a better feel for what would be optimal in the contextual menu."
Agreed that this is generally Apple's way--and I hope that after they look at the situation for a while, they'll realize that these commands make sense there.
You see, every other browser has the Back, Forward, Reload commands in a CM, so I have trained my hand to navigate by using them. It's very, very fast if you are used to it--and you don't need to worry about hitting a button area, or moving the mouse, or taking your hands off the mouse and using the keyboard.
I shouldn't have to retrain myself for Safari--Safari shold integrate and improve on my workflow. In general, like most Apple apps, it does so. In this case it's a problem, and so I end up never using it and sticking to Camino.
Is this really so crazy, to want the app to be able to do incredibly basic navigation from the CM? I'm not asking for a multitude of options, here, nor do I think it "clutters" the CMs in Safari--they're mainly empty now on a regular webpage.
Imagine if Apple arbitrarily decided to change a few more things:
Instead of Command-left arrow and Command-right arrow for keyboard navigation, they changed it to Command-minus and Command-plus.
And let's imagine that Back and Forward buttons were moved to the far right.
You would constantly trip up and click the wrong places and hit the wrong keys and it would take a while to retrain yourself (perhaps years; I still hit Command-N for new folder...although that will change in Panther).
There are simply certain conventions that must be followed or at least made optional. Until some completely new paradigm comes along which will make it worthwhile learning a new set of routines. Arbitrarily going against the flow for the sake of a strict purity and simplicity in design is insulting to the users that you are trying to woo to use your products or keep them from switching.
We have scrollbars on the right because when they are on the left users complained. We have a left pointing cursor because most people are righthanded and are used to seeing writing implements pointing to the upper left. We have the Trash on the right in the Dock because it was on the right in the old Mac OS. We have an Apple menu on the left because when it was in the middle of the screen users/developers complained as well as when it was absent altogether. Our folders are blue in Aqua because they were blue in Mac OS 9.
All kinds of minute carryovers and conveniences and conventions are evident. So too should Back and Next in contextual menus be in Safari.
If a user is expecting something, it should be there. If you also want to introduce some new method for something, you should allow the user to use the older method until they get up to speed with the new method, not punish/limit/stymie them.
Frankly I want a type of Exposé for Navigating in Safari. Safari has imitated and innovated the traditional web browser but only to a point, which is fine considering it's just 1.0. I expect huge things that only Apple can devise (or at least successfully bring to market).
No, I merely meant that Apple had departed from the norm of having Back and Forward in contextual menus. Safari never had them, quite right.
So imagine if Apple departed from the norm of having Previous and Next buttons in the upper left...or imagine if Apple departed from the norm of using Command-left arrow and Command-right arrow for Previous and Next, instead choosing some other key combination...
That sudden disrespect for your years of ingrained behavior would be quite frustrating.
There should never be just one way to do something on a Mac.
Users should be able to:
Use only the keyboard.
Use only the mouse.
Use a menu command.
Use a Contextual Menu command.
Use a button onscreen.
To go Back in Safari:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow or Command-[
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: History: Back
Contextual Menu command:MISSING
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
To go Back in OmniWeb:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: Browser: Navigate: Go To Previous Page
Contextual Menu command: Show previous page
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
To go Back in Mozilla, Netscape & Camino:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow or Command-[
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: Go: Back
Contextual Menu command: Back
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
To go Back in Internet Explorer:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow or Command-[
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: Go: Back
Contextual Menu command: Back
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
(Most also have history panes)
6 ways to do the exact same thing is not bloat or featureitis. It takes into account the myriad preferences and experience levels of users. It is what makes the Macintosh great...options, consistently applied options. The Mac isn't merely for you or me, it's for a wide range of users. There are bound to be features that we don't use and others do. But that doesn't mean we should want Apple to get rid of the stuff we don't use. (although future truly customizable programs would be nice).
heh... yeah.. actually i have been using the 3rd beta since it came out and all the sneakypeeks before that
I actually didn't even check to see if OW had back and fwd in their contextual menus (and it does ) and I just assumed camino would do the trick...
OW has always been my favorite browsers and one of the MAIN reasons why I switched to X-actually I even bought a license for it before I even ran ten...
Comments
Don't let them "appleinsider" you to death.
Appleinsider as a verb is when you dare say something innocent like "I wish Apple would give users more desktop pictures to choose from" and you then get blindsided with things like "If you can't just open up Photoshop and make your own then you shouldn't be using Macs!" or "You can drag and drop any image you find on the web and use it a your desktop picture" or "They take up too much memory, just use gray!"...
Don't let 'em grind ya down...
(Now we'll see if they have a sense of humor)
Contextual menues are great for doing stuff that either is far away (like deep inside a menu) or have something to di with what your arrow is over at the moment (like Save picture, open frame in new window. You get it). Don´t clutter it up with things you just have to move your mouse to the top left corner of the window to achieve.
Far from being "bloat", this is another missing quintessential Macintosh feature.
The Macintosh is about multiple ways of doing the same thing, utilizing menu commands, keyboard commands, contextual menu commands, buttons and drag and drop.
Saying only one of these is necessary and the others are "bloat" or "feature creep" is undermining the Macintosh by forcing all users to use one method, rather than the method that they deem to be best for them.
(This is coming from a guy that uses a 2 button mouse, and a trackpad and a keyboard and a Wacom tablet on his iBook...I like options)
There was never a rule that said contextual menus can only contain only that which is relevant to the selected or underlying item. There are many instances of menus that contain general commands that don't pertain to the current item although more so in Mac OS 9. There does seem to be a massive cleanup of contextual menus, especially in Panther. It's a trend I like for the most part, especially getting rid of that damned Help command that would always get selected by accident due to menu lag.
But the Aqua Human Interface Guidelines are just that, guidelines. Not rules or laws. If a contextual menu item can meet the expectations of the majority of users (as opposed to disappointing them by its absence) or if it can aid the user (by saving them from having to move the mouse far or use the keyboard with both hands) then it should be used.
Contextual menus are great for doing stuff that either is A. far away or B. have something to do with what your arrow is over at the moment
(edited by me)
A. One's arrow is usually near the scroll bar or window resize widget at the lower right, in normal web usage. This means that the cursor is always far from the top left, where Back and Forward buttons are. (This is why the close button is always on the top left of windows; it's inherently far away from the typical cursor positions - GUI Design 101)
B. One's arrow is over the web page document at all times, whether they are also over text or an image. Back and Forward pertain to the web document as a whole. Ergo it should be in a contextual menu.
I can think of nothing more pertinent to the current web browser document in a window than location, including Back and Forward. If View Source is pertinent (something novice and most average users never use), then so are Back and Forward.
One more annoying Safari thing...(Keep in mind though that I love Safari and use it exclusively)...the Back and Forward buttons have the wonderful ability to show their history menus for each when you click and hold. I just lament the fact that I'm positive not enough users know about it to benefit from it. It's just too subtle. I can't imagine them with little downward triangles though....that would be too many triangles. So how to make this feature more obvious?
Originally posted by Paul
if you want rich contextual menu support in a browser take a look at camino:
http://www.mozilla.org/projects/camino/
Pff! Paul? Have you ever heard of OmniWeb?
These are contextual menus!
Originally posted by Defiant
Pff! Paul? Have you ever heard of OmniWeb?
These are contextual menus!
heh... yeah.. actually i have been using the 3rd beta since it came out and all the sneakypeeks before that
I actually didn't even check to see if OW had back and fwd in their contextual menus (and it does
OW has always been my favorite browsers and one of the MAIN reasons why I switched to X-actually I even bought a license for it before I even ran ten...
Originally posted by johnq A. One's arrow is usually near the scroll bar or window resize widget at the lower right, in normal web usage. This means that the cursor is always far from the top left, where Back and Forward buttons are. (This is why the close button is always on the top left of windows; it's inherently far away from the typical cursor positions - GUI Design 101) [/B]
Thats why I gave deep inside a menu as an example. When I wrote far away I meant "Not visible". When a forward and backward button is visible on the GUI I think its better to use the menu for other things ("Print this frame" would have more use IMO)
Originally posted by johnq B. One's arrow is over the web page document at all times, whether they are also over text or an image. Back and Forward pertain to the web document as a whole. Ergo it should be in a contextual menu.[/B]
I think you undestand what I meant. The mouse position shows what part of the page I am interested in right now (frame, picture, link, word, line...). Forward and back doesn´t even have anything to do with the current page but other pages.
...
'open favorite'
'open favorite in new window'
'open favorite in tab'
'go to google.com'
'go to home'
'go to apple.com'
'quit'
'open'
'connect'
...
see where i'm going with this...contexual menu items should be used VERY sparingly...i dont think it would be good to just stick tons of options into safari CMI's
Originally posted by ast3r3x
see where i'm going with this...contexual menu items should be used VERY sparingly...i dont think it would be good to just stick tons of options into safari CMI's
You're very right. Unfortunately, companies like Opera Software do not understand that.
Less can be more.
Originally posted by johnq
I wouldn't want a "Not Invented Here" attitude to limit the Mac user experience.
And I'm not necessarily for or against Apple adding these features to the contextual menu. I'm just pointing out that Apple's way is to use keyboard short cuts before contextual menus. I think this is a better way of organizing a program because after months of use, the programmer can get a better feel for what would be optimal in the contextual menu.
Agreed that this is generally Apple's way--and I hope that after they look at the situation for a while, they'll realize that these commands make sense there.
You see, every other browser has the Back, Forward, Reload commands in a CM, so I have trained my hand to navigate by using them. It's very, very fast if you are used to it--and you don't need to worry about hitting a button area, or moving the mouse, or taking your hands off the mouse and using the keyboard.
I shouldn't have to retrain myself for Safari--Safari shold integrate and improve on my workflow. In general, like most Apple apps, it does so. In this case it's a problem, and so I end up never using it and sticking to Camino.
Is this really so crazy, to want the app to be able to do incredibly basic navigation from the CM? I'm not asking for a multitude of options, here, nor do I think it "clutters" the CMs in Safari--they're mainly empty now on a regular webpage.
Instead of Command-left arrow and Command-right arrow for keyboard navigation, they changed it to Command-minus and Command-plus.
And let's imagine that Back and Forward buttons were moved to the far right.
You would constantly trip up and click the wrong places and hit the wrong keys and it would take a while to retrain yourself (perhaps years; I still hit Command-N for new folder...although that will change in Panther).
There are simply certain conventions that must be followed or at least made optional. Until some completely new paradigm comes along which will make it worthwhile learning a new set of routines. Arbitrarily going against the flow for the sake of a strict purity and simplicity in design is insulting to the users that you are trying to woo to use your products or keep them from switching.
We have scrollbars on the right because when they are on the left users complained. We have a left pointing cursor because most people are righthanded and are used to seeing writing implements pointing to the upper left. We have the Trash on the right in the Dock because it was on the right in the old Mac OS. We have an Apple menu on the left because when it was in the middle of the screen users/developers complained as well as when it was absent altogether. Our folders are blue in Aqua because they were blue in Mac OS 9.
All kinds of minute carryovers and conveniences and conventions are evident. So too should Back and Next in contextual menus be in Safari.
If a user is expecting something, it should be there. If you also want to introduce some new method for something, you should allow the user to use the older method until they get up to speed with the new method, not punish/limit/stymie them.
Frankly I want a type of Exposé for Navigating in Safari. Safari has imitated and innovated the traditional web browser but only to a point, which is fine considering it's just 1.0. I expect huge things that only Apple can devise (or at least successfully bring to market).
Originally posted by johnq
Imagine if Apple arbitrarily decided to change a few more things....
The thing is, Apple isn't changing anything with Safari. Unless I'm mistaken, those options weren't available in the beta.
No, I merely meant that Apple had departed from the norm of having Back and Forward in contextual menus. Safari never had them, quite right.
So imagine if Apple departed from the norm of having Previous and Next buttons in the upper left...or imagine if Apple departed from the norm of using Command-left arrow and Command-right arrow for Previous and Next, instead choosing some other key combination...
That sudden disrespect for your years of ingrained behavior would be quite frustrating.
There should never be just one way to do something on a Mac.
Users should be able to:
Use only the keyboard.
Use only the mouse.
Use a menu command.
Use a Contextual Menu command.
Use a button onscreen.
To go Back in Safari:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow or Command-[
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: History: Back
Contextual Menu command: MISSING
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
To go Back in OmniWeb:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: Browser: Navigate: Go To Previous Page
Contextual Menu command: Show previous page
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
To go Back in Mozilla, Netscape & Camino:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow or Command-[
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: Go: Back
Contextual Menu command: Back
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
To go Back in Internet Explorer:
Keyboard: Command-left arrow or Command-[
Mouse: Left secondary button on 4 button mice (if programmed to do so)
Menu command: Go: Back
Contextual Menu command: Back
Button onscreen: Back button (and if you click and hold it you can choose from the History list)
(Most also have history panes)
6 ways to do the exact same thing is not bloat or featureitis. It takes into account the myriad preferences and experience levels of users. It is what makes the Macintosh great...options, consistently applied options. The Mac isn't merely for you or me, it's for a wide range of users. There are bound to be features that we don't use and others do. But that doesn't mean we should want Apple to get rid of the stuff we don't use. (although future truly customizable programs would be nice).
It's a glaring omission in Safari.
Originally posted by johnq
There should never be just one way to do something on a Mac.
Users should be able to:
Use only the keyboard.
Use only the mouse.
Use a menu command.
Use a Contextual Menu command.
Use a button onscreen.
You're wrong.
Originally posted by Paul
heh... yeah.. actually i have been using the 3rd beta since it came out and all the sneakypeeks before that
I actually didn't even check to see if OW had back and fwd in their contextual menus (and it does
OW has always been my favorite browsers and one of the MAIN reasons why I switched to X-actually I even bought a license for it before I even ran ten...
You're the man then! 8)
Originally posted by mrmister
None of this helps the fact that Safari's contextual menus don't have a "Forward", "Back" and "Reload", making them well-nigh useless for navigation.
I wish they'd incorporate that.
I just set USB Overdrive to do a Back command whenever I right-click in Safari.
Then I set the Scroll (middle) button to do the contextual menu. If you never use the contextual menu, you can set the scroll button to do a Forward.
But I agree, it's silly that the only things Safari has on a right mousedown that is not on a link are View Source and Save Page As....
I mean come on, "View Source"????
I filed another bug report on this for good measure, including this thread--I figure there's a good spread of opinions here.
E.G., right click and drag left = back, drag up = new tab (or window), etc.