Is an expensive education worth it???
okay, i know that subject line is pretty open-ended, but something's been bugging me lately. namely, the ridiculous costs associated with some universities, and how their admins state that their education "is worth it." on headline news today, they were saying that at present escalation, a 4-year degree at harvard, including housing, fees, etc. will cost about a QUARTER-MILLION DOLLARS in about 18 years.
now, i went to tulane university, a private university in new orleans, mostly because i had a full scholarship and the locale was more interesting and a culture deeper than anywhere else i was looking at. for those who don't know, tulane is also one of the most expensive private universities anywhere, even over ivy leagues. so i was dirt-poor, but managed to go (though i am still paying TONS of loans back for everything that scholarship didn't cover). was the education worth it? was it any better than, say, university of florida, where i could have gone for almost free since i was a florida resident at the time??? am i any smarter or better prepared for life with a different name on a college diploma that no one has asked to see since 1996???
and i got in because i was stupid poor, and got the scholarships. i went to class with a lot of kids who were only there to get drunk and screw for four straight years because their parents were rich enough to pay for it. but what about those middle income families, not poor enough for scholarships, but not rich enough to pay it out-of-pocket. and while people are probably earning more on average than they were ten years ago (maybe not), i have to think that college costs are far outpacing the increase of cash in the public sector.
anyway, i don't regret having gone where i did, as i met my wife there and made many good friends, and can say that i lived in new orleans for four years and really feel at home in this area. but there are a lot of conflicting issues with this topic in my head, but i just don't see why education is something that people have to pay through the nose for.
now, i went to tulane university, a private university in new orleans, mostly because i had a full scholarship and the locale was more interesting and a culture deeper than anywhere else i was looking at. for those who don't know, tulane is also one of the most expensive private universities anywhere, even over ivy leagues. so i was dirt-poor, but managed to go (though i am still paying TONS of loans back for everything that scholarship didn't cover). was the education worth it? was it any better than, say, university of florida, where i could have gone for almost free since i was a florida resident at the time??? am i any smarter or better prepared for life with a different name on a college diploma that no one has asked to see since 1996???
and i got in because i was stupid poor, and got the scholarships. i went to class with a lot of kids who were only there to get drunk and screw for four straight years because their parents were rich enough to pay for it. but what about those middle income families, not poor enough for scholarships, but not rich enough to pay it out-of-pocket. and while people are probably earning more on average than they were ten years ago (maybe not), i have to think that college costs are far outpacing the increase of cash in the public sector.
anyway, i don't regret having gone where i did, as i met my wife there and made many good friends, and can say that i lived in new orleans for four years and really feel at home in this area. but there are a lot of conflicting issues with this topic in my head, but i just don't see why education is something that people have to pay through the nose for.
Comments
I suppose it makes sense if:
1. You can get into a really high-caliber school,
2. you live in a state that doesn't have a high-caliber public schools, in which case you'd have to pay out-of-state tuition anyway,
and/or
3. you get funding that makes the cost issue disappear.
Two things my expensive private education helped me with were outside of the actual merits of the education. I have the repute of my education to help me, plus, and more importantly, I have an instant network of other grads out in both the academic and "real" world for me. It's basically the old boys club (women and minorities are increasingly becoming a bigger part of it) for better or worse.
Other things I've never been asked. My high school GPA, my college GPA, my SAT scores, etc.
Real life is very different than school.
Nick
Originally posted by thuh Freak
all else being equal, and sitting in a hard economy, the school you went to would matter, i think, if you are young in the work force. candidate A went to harvard, candidate B went to a suny, same grades, same everything else; A gets the job, methinks. after you've had a few years of experience, i've been told that it matter less, where you went. its just a matter of gloating at that point.
`
This is one of the good aspect of US. After a few years of experience, where you make your studies count less than your personal experience. In france, the diploma take too much importance, and you have very few chances to access some post if you don't have been in the most famous universities (in France we call this Grandes ecoles, big schools). For example, when my father works at Pechiney (huge aluminium company), 80 % of the executive staff was coming from Polytechnique.
The former CEO of universal, Jean Marie Messier, was an exception he was coming from the same engineering school than my father.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
In france, the diploma take too much importance, and you have very few chances to access some post if you don't have been in the most famous universities (in France we call this Grandes ecoles, big schools). For example, when my father works at Pechiney (huge aluminium company), 80 % of the executive staff was coming from Polytechnique.
This sort of thing is more true in certain industries than others. architecture, hotel and restaurants, and others take your college degree into account more so than most other fields. It's not an exclusive club, no blacklists or anything, but it's interesting to note where the leaders in these fields got their degrees, and how common some degrees are over others. It's also not just an in-the-field phenomenon. People who get the work and the people who offer it make their connections one way or another.
But what many people just continue to overlook or neglect is that the most expensive schools give out the most money in grants and financial aid. The true cost is well below the stated tuition for the majority of attending students. hell, princeton has a no loan policy where they will meet your need as much as is required to not take out a loan.
Thos schools offer a lot that you can't get elsewhere.
But I also would guess that college is what you make it out to be.
Originally posted by applenut
The true cost is well below the stated tuition for the majority of attending students. hell, princeton has a no loan policy where they will meet your need as much as is required to not take out a loan.
i know what you're saying, as university of pennsylvania (one of the lesser-known ivy leagues) couldn't give me any scholarship, but because our family's income was so low, they got me a huge pell grant offered by the government. i just really didn't want to spend four years in philly for a degree from a school that excelled in nursing, medical, and accounting -- three fields i couldn't care less about.
BUT, what if my family earned more money? just enough, like $30-40K, then i wouldn't have even had the OPTION to go, even if i really wanted to be in one of those fields, since we wouldn't be considered enough "in need."
but i know it's not exactly fair to say "you must take" someone into your school. i mean, if i did want a medical background, univ. or florida would have been fine. it would have been my choice for school, and then up to me to excel at the school of my choice. so i'm not laying all the blame at a school's doorstep.
but on the radio last week, i was listening to a smaller ohio private school who was raising prices intentionally for ohio rsidents to limit in-state enrollment (in-state students paid a pittance to attend, and then there were fewer out-of-state students paying full tuition because there were fewer spots). they also did this because, as they said, their education was "worth the price tag." this is not something i read intot he story -- this was their stated intention was to drive away students by means of charging higher prices to get more money for their education, which is apparently thought of in high regard.
something just struck me as wrong about their handling of the situation. then i saw that item on headline news earlier, which prompted this thread.
The really high-endowment schools like the Ivies almost universally have need-blind admissions, and can find all sorts of ways to get money to those who need it. The hard part is determining who needs it. The people who find it hardest to get money out of these schools are the ones who are upper-middle class in income. It does create a sort of divide in the student body when many of your students are either rich to begin with or "poor" enough to get the aid they need. There is a fair association between one's economic standing and one's social and cultural group for better or worse.
Anyway, despite my first comment here, these schools usually choose from their needs for positions in the school (yearbook, football team, student leaders, community volunteers, dish washers, organ pipe cleaners, etc.) with some demographic variety (race, place of origin, etc.) and of course academic merit. If the school is missing a kazoo player for the school band, a kazoo player will be valued over others with the same credentials otherwise. At my college, the faculty committee that chose who was accepted into the program (the school was small enough that they could hand-pick the applicants) did not know of the applicants' financial situation, save one representative from admissions, and the question never comes up.
It's interesting to see how need-blind admissions are changing. There are so many colleges out there, a decreasing student population to actually occupy them, a poor economy for the colleges (lack of state and federal money, investments are down, etc.). It's a shame, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 20 years, some private colleges simply pack it up because there simply isn't enough of a demand or population to keep them running. I don't think they can draw enough students from the junior college and high school crowd to keep up. All of this of course will not affect the richest colleges that much, but maybe in the end, the range of academic choices will dwindle and the quality of the education will reflect the financial situation as well.
Originally posted by rok
i know what you're saying, as university of pennsylvania (one of the lesser-known ivy leagues) couldn't give me any scholarship, but because our family's income was so low, they got me a huge pell grant offered by the government. i just really didn't want to spend four years in philly for a degree from a school that excelled in nursing, medical, and accounting -- three fields i couldn't care less about.
um.. what about business and engineering?
BUT, what if my family earned more money? just enough, like $30-40K, then i wouldn't have even had the OPTION to go, even if i really wanted to be in one of those fields, since we wouldn't be considered enough "in need."
My family has a considerably higher income than that and we got need based aid and grants from many schools so I don't think that's an accurate statement.
Edited out the bullshit part, sorry.
Originally posted by applenut
um.. what about business and engineering?
sorry, i was lumping accounting into Wharton School of Business. didn't know they had any engineering prowess.
Originally posted by applenut
that's bullshit. My family has a considerably higher income than that and we got need based aid and grants from many schools.
well, good for you. don't think the "bullshit" comment was necessary, though.
Originally posted by Scott
I'm not convinced that it is worth it. Some states have public schools that rival the private offerings. I would say that if you're going for any type of science or engineering then the public schools are better on average.
Unfortunately the states with public schools that rival private offerings are few.... California, Virginia, Michigan..... Pennsylvania maybe. What else... Washington?
New york state has a ton of State universties but none of them are all too impressive. Binghamton is probably the best but who wants to go to Binghamton.
California's state system is insane but unfortunately budget cuts are beginning to hurt it.
Originally posted by applenut
um.. what about business and engineering?
My family has a considerably higher income than that and we got need based aid and grants from many schools so I don't think that's an accurate statement.
Edited out the bullshit part, sorry.
no, THAT is bullshit. considerably higher income than that and youre getting financial aid. HAH not even i can get financial aid and my family sure as hell aint got considerably higher income than that.
Originally posted by TigerWoods99
no, THAT is bullshit. considerably higher income than that and youre getting financial aid. HAH not even i can get financial aid and my family sure as hell aint got considerably higher income than that.
um... where do you go?
i hate to tell you but the majority of private school students get financial aid.
public schools are where middle income families get hurt with financial aid but luckily they are cheap as it is when you are in state. I wasn't in state for any of the public universities I applied to and well..... let's just say tuition aint too pretty.
Expensive private schools are able to provide more resources for their students. They also tend to specialize in certain areas. If you go to Harvard, you get get an excellent education. No doubt. But you can get a very good education in Ann Arbor or Madison.
Really what it comes down to is what the student wants to get out of their college experience. There is no question that some schools provide a MUCH better education than others, but it depends on the subject. Some schools may be highly respected and expensive, but might not be strong in a particular area or the social life may be lacking.
Originally posted by trumptman
I've never had a single person aske me where my degree was from.
Maybe not you, but it does matter a tremendous amount to most people with professional jobs in competitive urban markets. My girlfriend has the job she has and make the money she does specificlly because of the school she went to. It's the same situation with her brother. Neither of them would even be considered if it was not for the school they went to and their academic successes.