so im guessing a 233 MHz beige g3 with a usb upgrade card wont run panther...
I bet XPostFacto will eventually (once they get it upgraded) enable the Beige machine to run it. However 233Mhz is probably slow for OS X. You might be happier just sticking with OS 9.2.
Ahem... I suppose everybody has $1300 to spare . I think using X on much less then a 400 Mhz G3 (10GB HD, 256MB RAM, 1024x768 res) would be silly, but most machines bought in, say, 2000 would be all right.
I agree. Not everyone can just buy a new computer. a G3 should be able to run it fast enough. Especially if that G3 came with Mac OS X (like mine, even if it was 10.0.3).
I love Mac OS X, and have been running it on my Beige G3 266 Rev A since day one. I am getting a G5 in Jan (once the Rev B's come out), but I need Panther on this computer for it's improved performance, improved networking, and improved workflow. the improved workflow will be like a 5GHZ CPU upgrade.
Don't bash people on slower computer because your rich and can upgrade every 6 month. 99% of people are lucky to upgrade every 3-5 years.
I plan to have this Mac in services for years to come as a server, and as a backup computer for the next 3 years. I am proud of my Beige G3, it has been rock solid in Mac OS X, and I will never go back to Mac OS 9, even to gain performance. I bought this computer for Mac OS X, not Mac OS 9.
I also run a full Web server with PHP and MySQL+an AFP and SSH server at the same time. Macs are designed to run for 5 years if the need be, and they do. 99% of beige G3 users will be on a new Mac by end of 2004 (those who bought it brand new that is).
Rev A 350MHz BW G3 is my main server here for chez geek... web, WebDAV, IMAP, etc, etc, etc... works great. Sure, I'm not going to fraggin' to get the honeys, but for what it does, it does well. Looking forward to 10.3.
10.3 runs OK on our 2 333Mhz iMacs (256 and 384 ram) and very well indeed on my 600Mhz Graphite iMac with 640Mb ram but its no better than Jaguar on the 266 Beige G3 (eg. dead slow). My advice if you have a slot loading iMac is get more Ram and Panther will run great (no animated fast user switching though... ) Beige G3 i'm not so sure its worth it, anything else (9600, etc) forgedaboudit! I finally managed to download 7B39 from the ADC site yesterday so I'll give it a go today on one of the 333 (Tangerine!) iMacs and post my opinion again....
To people that are saying they cannot afford to upgrade their aging G3... the beige G3s shipped in 1998, no? That was a solid five years ago. If within those five years, you haven't found the time, need, or inclination to upgrade your box, you probably don't need to.
I've run Jaguar on a beige G3. It isn't pretty. If that was the only machine I owned, and I really wanted to run OS X on it, I would find the money, somehow. But if you can't find the money, it's obviously not that important to you; you don't *need* the upgrade, ergo, you don't *need* Mac OS X. Life is all about necessity.
For those that claim they're too young... get a job. Nothing like starting young. It builds character, dammit. I started working a real job when I was 13. At 14 I was able to fund my first competition mountain bike... and that was about a $2000 investment. But I really wanted it, and I was winning races, so I found a way to make it happen.
But getting rid of a beige G3... we're not talking about needing to spend two grand to upgrade to a new box. If you act now, you can offload your beige g3 for a good $150. I just checked some classifieds. You can get a 500MHz G4 for under $500. Panther would cost you $130, add in the $150 you can make from your beige box, and you're over halfway there. So come on now, if it's that important, you can find the rest of the money.
You people that play that "I'm poor" card either don't really care about upgrading and seek some cheap pity, or there is a severe lack of one or all of the following: Motivation, Ambition, Discipline, Creativity, Will.
I am proud of my Beige G3, it has been rock solid in Mac OS X, and I will never go back to Mac OS 9, even to gain performance. I bought this computer for Mac OS X, not Mac OS 9.
Er, you bought a late '97 model for an operating system that arrived early '01?
10.2 runs VERY well on my upgraded Beige (G3/266) G4/500 tower. I am comparing this to a G4/500 AGP which I use at work. If Apple is excluding the original G3s for some reason, I'd like to know what it is.
I use my computer for PhotoShop, LightWave, Web-dev, etc. It has no problem doing real work. Of course, I'd like to work on a G5, but my Mac is running better than ever and I don't even want to upgrade until the G5 has seen a revision or two.
Its not about being cheap or broke. Its about being forced to upgrade a machine which is running the latest version of OSX as well or better than some supported computers.
To people that are saying they cannot afford to upgrade their aging G3... the beige G3s shipped in 1998, no? That was a solid five years ago. If within those five years, you haven't found the time, need, or inclination to upgrade your box, you probably don't need to.
I've run Jaguar on a beige G3. It isn't pretty. If that was the only machine I owned, and I really wanted to run OS X on it, I would find the money, somehow. But if you can't find the money, it's obviously not that important to you; you don't *need* the upgrade, ergo, you don't *need* Mac OS X. Life is all about necessity.
For those that claim they're too young... get a job. Nothing like starting young. It builds character, dammit. I started working a real job when I was 13. At 14 I was able to fund my first competition mountain bike... and that was about a $2000 investment. But I really wanted it, and I was winning races, so I found a way to make it happen.
But getting rid of a beige G3... we're not talking about needing to spend two grand to upgrade to a new box. If you act now, you can offload your beige g3 for a good $150. I just checked some classifieds. You can get a 500MHz G4 for under $500. Panther would cost you $130, add in the $150 you can make from your beige box, and you're over halfway there. So come on now, if it's that important, you can find the rest of the money.
You people that play that "I'm poor" card either don't really care about upgrading and seek some cheap pity, or there is a severe lack of one or all of the following: Motivation, Ambition, Discipline, Creativity, Will.
Well..If I ever got the money (which is possible), my parents would be wondering why I'd need a new one anyway, and all those morals about being grateful, etc. So what I'll try to do is live with this one. I'm sure it's possible. My G3's the 500mhz iMac (Indigo). I forgot when that came out... RAM and Panther, that's all you guys need I think. And I think that's what I'm going to do. And if I buy Panther I'm buying it as soon as it comes out so I use it as long as possible.
I have a G3 iMac and I can't really get a new computer (I'm only 14 years of age and my parents aren't buying me another one, and I'm not using all my savings to get one), so I have two choices now. I could get a 512 MB RAM upgrade AND Panther, or I could just get the 1 GB upgrade and wait a while for Panther and skip it entirely. Decisions...
Panther should work on G3 computers. Just make sure you're computer runs faster than mine and has more RAM (500 mhz, 128 MB). Then you'll probably be okay
jwill:
Get 512MB RAM and Panther. 1GB is overkill. Get the RAM now if you can, it will give you an immediate improvement.
About Beige G3 systems:
They don't work because apple removed support for the older motherboard chipsets. I think it would be rather difficult for a third party to make it work, but they've done it for older systems, so you never know. I can't imagine that it would work terribly well if they do.
Anyway, Panther does go back quite a bit. Any PowerMac from 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, or 2003 will work, and with Panther coming out near the end of 2003, that is nearly 5 years worth of PowerMacs that can run Panther.
Any iMac or iBook can run Panther if you buy enough RAM.
PowerBooks going back to 1999 can run Panther.
Beige G3 machines (1997-1998) don't work, but being about 6 years old, it's about time for them to be replaced anyway. 5 years of software support is pretty good, and the beige machines can continue running Jaguar as long as you want.
Well..If I ever got the money (which is possible), my parents would be wondering why I'd need a new one anyway, and all those morals about being grateful, etc. So what I'll try to do is live with this one. I'm sure it's possible. My G3's the 500mhz iMac (Indigo). I forgot when that came out... RAM and Panther, that's all you guys need I think. And I think that's what I'm going to do. And if I buy Panther I'm buying it as soon as it comes out so I use it as long as possible.
They also make some rather inexpensive upgrades for your box. You could take it up to a G4, and those upgrades are getting relatively cheap. If you have a 500MHz Indigo iMac, you'll be content on panther. It's the old world machines you want to worry about. The old world machines have issues beyond belief...
Support for the G3 isn't going away anytime soon. If you want some longterm proof of that, take this pill: Apple still ships G3s. They're going to want to support that CPU for some time. You're good for a while...
Er, you bought a late '97 model for an operating system that arrived early '01?
Well I got this computer 1 month AFTER Steve Jobs announced at WWDC 98 that the G3 would be a First Class Citizen on Mac OS X due out Fall 1999
As due to my disability it has been impossible for me to get a new computer. I wish I was rich like you but I am not and 99.9999999% of the world isn't.
I'm sorry if you are poor, but maybe you'll have to stick it out with Mac OS Classic like every other economically-disadvantaged person in the world.
I'm sorry but if you expect new software to run on old computers the same as new computers, you should get one of those books like "facts about the computer world you should really know about before you buy a computer".
I'm sorry if it's slow, but find me a desktop computer from 1997 that is not slow running current software.
They don't work because apple removed support for the older motherboard chipsets. I think it would be rather difficult for a third party to make it work, but they've done it for older systems, so you never know. I can't imagine that it would work terribly well if they do.
Apple is primarily a hardware company, this is just another way for them to try to increase sales.
A lot of the same chips the Beige model uses are used in newer hardware that is supported (though for example the sound driver requires a separate OldWorld version). So while it's a bit more work to maintain different versions it isn't going to free up amazing amounts of resources to drop them.
Anyway I have a feeling the open source nature of Darwin will make it easier than you think to provide support for older models. Aside from the partition and OF magic the Apple installer does, the actual process of installation is pretty generic. It might be easier to write a custom installer to parse the .pkg files and write the files out (along with custom versions of whatever needed to be changed and driver versions for stuff that got left out) on a version of OS X that already exists than try to make the Panther disc bootable.
I'm sorry if you are poor, but maybe you'll have to stick it out with Mac OS Classic like every other economically-disadvantaged person in the world.
I'm sorry but if you expect new software to run on old computers the same as new computers, you should get one of those books like "facts about the computer world you should really know about before you buy a computer".
I'm sorry if it's slow, but find me a desktop computer from 1997 that is not slow running current software.
Barto
I love X on this computer and won't go back to OS 9 PERIOD. the advantages of OS X outweigh the speed up of OS 9. If things go well I will be on a G5 as soon as the top of the line Rev B's ship.
if you setup this computer right it is very usable in Mac OS X. Even for light Photoshop work. I need Panther for this Mac the workflow improvements will help workflow and the networking improvements will help once I make this a Server come Rev B G5's.
It makes sense for Apple to slowly get rid of supporting older machine types. Both money-wise and time-wise (takes longer to support more machines in new software).
The argument of being too poor to buy a new machine doesn't count. Use 10.2.x instead and you're set.
However: There probably WILL be workarounds, as mentioned, so stop whining already.
The other thing is - why is Apple dropping support for the Pro machines of 1998 yet still supporting the consumer machines of 1998? now that doesn't make sense - considering the Pro machines are faster. Panther will be Faster on all Macs so there isn't a reason to drop support. at min Panther should be the final OS as 2004 will see the last of the Beige G3 users upgrade to a new Machine (or at the latest first half 2005).
I personally will somehow get Panther on this Mac. I need it for work. That side bar in the Finder, Open, and Save dialogues is going to save alot of time.
The other thing is - why is Apple dropping support for the Pro machines of 1998 yet still supporting the consumer machines of 1998? now that doesn't make sense
Yes it does. The Beige G3s have OldWorld ROMs, and the iMacs have NewWorld ROMs as the current Macs also have.
Comments
Originally posted by chef ramen noodle
so im guessing a 233 MHz beige g3 with a usb upgrade card wont run panther...
I bet XPostFacto will eventually (once they get it upgraded) enable the Beige machine to run it. However 233Mhz is probably slow for OS X. You might be happier just sticking with OS 9.2.
Originally posted by ryaxnb
Ahem... I suppose everybody has $1300 to spare
I agree. Not everyone can just buy a new computer. a G3 should be able to run it fast enough. Especially if that G3 came with Mac OS X (like mine, even if it was 10.0.3).
Don't bash people on slower computer because your rich and can upgrade every 6 month. 99% of people are lucky to upgrade every 3-5 years.
I plan to have this Mac in services for years to come as a server, and as a backup computer for the next 3 years. I am proud of my Beige G3, it has been rock solid in Mac OS X, and I will never go back to Mac OS 9, even to gain performance. I bought this computer for Mac OS X, not Mac OS 9.
I also run a full Web server with PHP and MySQL+an AFP and SSH server at the same time. Macs are designed to run for 5 years if the need be, and they do. 99% of beige G3 users will be on a new Mac by end of 2004 (those who bought it brand new that is).
I've run Jaguar on a beige G3. It isn't pretty. If that was the only machine I owned, and I really wanted to run OS X on it, I would find the money, somehow. But if you can't find the money, it's obviously not that important to you; you don't *need* the upgrade, ergo, you don't *need* Mac OS X. Life is all about necessity.
For those that claim they're too young... get a job. Nothing like starting young. It builds character, dammit. I started working a real job when I was 13. At 14 I was able to fund my first competition mountain bike... and that was about a $2000 investment. But I really wanted it, and I was winning races, so I found a way to make it happen.
But getting rid of a beige G3... we're not talking about needing to spend two grand to upgrade to a new box. If you act now, you can offload your beige g3 for a good $150. I just checked some classifieds. You can get a 500MHz G4 for under $500. Panther would cost you $130, add in the $150 you can make from your beige box, and you're over halfway there. So come on now, if it's that important, you can find the rest of the money.
You people that play that "I'm poor" card either don't really care about upgrading and seek some cheap pity, or there is a severe lack of one or all of the following: Motivation, Ambition, Discipline, Creativity, Will.
Originally posted by Mac Write
I am proud of my Beige G3, it has been rock solid in Mac OS X, and I will never go back to Mac OS 9, even to gain performance. I bought this computer for Mac OS X, not Mac OS 9.
Er, you bought a late '97 model for an operating system that arrived early '01?
I use my computer for PhotoShop, LightWave, Web-dev, etc. It has no problem doing real work. Of course, I'd like to work on a G5, but my Mac is running better than ever and I don't even want to upgrade until the G5 has seen a revision or two.
Its not about being cheap or broke. Its about being forced to upgrade a machine which is running the latest version of OSX as well or better than some supported computers.
Originally posted by LoCash
To people that are saying they cannot afford to upgrade their aging G3... the beige G3s shipped in 1998, no? That was a solid five years ago. If within those five years, you haven't found the time, need, or inclination to upgrade your box, you probably don't need to.
I've run Jaguar on a beige G3. It isn't pretty. If that was the only machine I owned, and I really wanted to run OS X on it, I would find the money, somehow. But if you can't find the money, it's obviously not that important to you; you don't *need* the upgrade, ergo, you don't *need* Mac OS X. Life is all about necessity.
For those that claim they're too young... get a job. Nothing like starting young. It builds character, dammit. I started working a real job when I was 13. At 14 I was able to fund my first competition mountain bike... and that was about a $2000 investment. But I really wanted it, and I was winning races, so I found a way to make it happen.
But getting rid of a beige G3... we're not talking about needing to spend two grand to upgrade to a new box. If you act now, you can offload your beige g3 for a good $150. I just checked some classifieds. You can get a 500MHz G4 for under $500. Panther would cost you $130, add in the $150 you can make from your beige box, and you're over halfway there. So come on now, if it's that important, you can find the rest of the money.
You people that play that "I'm poor" card either don't really care about upgrading and seek some cheap pity, or there is a severe lack of one or all of the following: Motivation, Ambition, Discipline, Creativity, Will.
Well..If I ever got the money (which is possible), my parents would be wondering why I'd need a new one anyway, and all those morals about being grateful, etc. So what I'll try to do is live with this one. I'm sure it's possible. My G3's the 500mhz iMac (Indigo). I forgot when that came out...
Originally posted by jwill
I have a G3 iMac and I can't really get a new computer (I'm only 14 years of age and my parents aren't buying me another one, and I'm not using all my savings to get one), so I have two choices now. I could get a 512 MB RAM upgrade AND Panther, or I could just get the 1 GB upgrade and wait a while for Panther and skip it entirely. Decisions...
Panther should work on G3 computers. Just make sure you're computer runs faster than mine and has more RAM (500 mhz, 128 MB). Then you'll probably be okay
jwill:
Get 512MB RAM and Panther. 1GB is overkill. Get the RAM now if you can, it will give you an immediate improvement.
About Beige G3 systems:
They don't work because apple removed support for the older motherboard chipsets. I think it would be rather difficult for a third party to make it work, but they've done it for older systems, so you never know. I can't imagine that it would work terribly well if they do.
Anyway, Panther does go back quite a bit. Any PowerMac from 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, or 2003 will work, and with Panther coming out near the end of 2003, that is nearly 5 years worth of PowerMacs that can run Panther.
Any iMac or iBook can run Panther if you buy enough RAM.
PowerBooks going back to 1999 can run Panther.
Beige G3 machines (1997-1998) don't work, but being about 6 years old, it's about time for them to be replaced anyway. 5 years of software support is pretty good, and the beige machines can continue running Jaguar as long as you want.
Originally posted by rogue27
jwill:
Get 512MB RAM and Panther. 1GB is overkill. Get the RAM now if you can, it will give you an immediate improvement.
Works for me..I think that's what I'll do. Now the problem is waiting for Panther...
Originally posted by jwill
Well..If I ever got the money (which is possible), my parents would be wondering why I'd need a new one anyway, and all those morals about being grateful, etc. So what I'll try to do is live with this one. I'm sure it's possible. My G3's the 500mhz iMac (Indigo). I forgot when that came out...
They also make some rather inexpensive upgrades for your box. You could take it up to a G4, and those upgrades are getting relatively cheap. If you have a 500MHz Indigo iMac, you'll be content on panther. It's the old world machines you want to worry about. The old world machines have issues beyond belief...
Support for the G3 isn't going away anytime soon. If you want some longterm proof of that, take this pill: Apple still ships G3s. They're going to want to support that CPU for some time. You're good for a while...
Originally posted by Chucker
Er, you bought a late '97 model for an operating system that arrived early '01?
Well I got this computer 1 month AFTER Steve Jobs announced at WWDC 98 that the G3 would be a First Class Citizen on Mac OS X due out Fall 1999
As due to my disability it has been impossible for me to get a new computer. I wish I was rich like you but I am not and 99.9999999% of the world isn't.
I'm sorry but if you expect new software to run on old computers the same as new computers, you should get one of those books like "facts about the computer world you should really know about before you buy a computer".
I'm sorry if it's slow, but find me a desktop computer from 1997 that is not slow running current software.
Barto
Originally posted by rogue27
jAbout Beige G3 systems:
They don't work because apple removed support for the older motherboard chipsets. I think it would be rather difficult for a third party to make it work, but they've done it for older systems, so you never know. I can't imagine that it would work terribly well if they do.
Apple is primarily a hardware company, this is just another way for them to try to increase sales.
A lot of the same chips the Beige model uses are used in newer hardware that is supported (though for example the sound driver requires a separate OldWorld version). So while it's a bit more work to maintain different versions it isn't going to free up amazing amounts of resources to drop them.
Anyway I have a feeling the open source nature of Darwin will make it easier than you think to provide support for older models. Aside from the partition and OF magic the Apple installer does, the actual process of installation is pretty generic. It might be easier to write a custom installer to parse the .pkg files and write the files out (along with custom versions of whatever needed to be changed and driver versions for stuff that got left out) on a version of OS X that already exists than try to make the Panther disc bootable.
Originally posted by Barto
I'm sorry if you are poor, but maybe you'll have to stick it out with Mac OS Classic like every other economically-disadvantaged person in the world.
I'm sorry but if you expect new software to run on old computers the same as new computers, you should get one of those books like "facts about the computer world you should really know about before you buy a computer".
I'm sorry if it's slow, but find me a desktop computer from 1997 that is not slow running current software.
Barto
I love X on this computer and won't go back to OS 9 PERIOD. the advantages of OS X outweigh the speed up of OS 9. If things go well I will be on a G5 as soon as the top of the line Rev B's ship.
if you setup this computer right it is very usable in Mac OS X. Even for light Photoshop work. I need Panther for this Mac the workflow improvements will help workflow and the networking improvements will help once I make this a Server come Rev B G5's.
The argument of being too poor to buy a new machine doesn't count. Use 10.2.x instead and you're set.
However: There probably WILL be workarounds, as mentioned, so stop whining already.
I personally will somehow get Panther on this Mac. I need it for work. That side bar in the Finder, Open, and Save dialogues is going to save alot of time.
Originally posted by Mac Write
The other thing is - why is Apple dropping support for the Pro machines of 1998 yet still supporting the consumer machines of 1998? now that doesn't make sense
Yes it does. The Beige G3s have OldWorld ROMs, and the iMacs have NewWorld ROMs as the current Macs also have.
Originally posted by Chucker
Er, you bought a late '97 model for an operating system that arrived early '01?
It's really late '99, not '01. [Edit: Never mind, made a mistake]