After reading all this (and wanting an apple PDA myself) I was thinking about the upcoming palm split. i.e. the software and hardware are going to split so that "...palm OS licences can better be sold, since palm hardware wont have an unfair advantage in the licencors eyes."
Seems to me that apple might licence the Palm OS (to be both compatiable and standard based, both KEY marketing points in the NEW Apple), and then add their own features and design, ink, MP4, etc...
I think that palm is spliting up early next month? hummmm....
Seems like some thing else is going on then as well, lt me see if i can remember...
<strong>Steve, "We are not going to release a PDA" plus "We've been working very closely with these guys (Palm)" equals ...
"Palm is releasing an Apple enhanced PDA."</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hate to point this out, because Matsu will probably come in here and hyperventilate, but this is exactly what Kormac had been predicting for quite some time. That the small 1-device would be made by or in conjunction with Palm.
I mostly discredited the Apple-branded Palm PDA rumors (Lord, there's a mouthful), because that quote from Steve is almost two years old now (right?). Plus that executive setup at Palm has been tossed in a blender between then and now.
However, if true, it would be contingent on Palm's successful conversion to ARM processors (which is very close -- but not July close).
The Be 'takeover' [edit:] of Palm OS division shouldn't be brushed off either. Remember from what other company Be employees came from and who dominated the Palm ranks at one time.
I think this is a good case of a loop closing.
Screed ...unlike my computers, I do not care who makes the PDA, it just must fit my specification wants and needs.
Isn't there supposed to be some bad blood between Steve Jobs and Jean-Louise Gassee (or maybe just the other way around) because of Apple buying out Next instead of Be at the last minute? Or was that all unconfirmed rumor?
If this is true, would Steve be more likely to go after that market aggressively? Esp. with the rumor of his failed Palm buyout attempt?
I hate to point this out, because Matsu will probably come in here and hyperventilate, but this is exactly what Kormac had been predicting for quite some time. That the small 1-device would be made by or in conjunction with Palm.
Time frame. In another thread on the possibility I said that the idea of a Mac over Palm (similar to MacOSX over Unix) is just now entering the realm of possibility. Just now are Palms set to gain (they haven't got it yet) the right combination of power, battery life and useability to turn them into something slightly more useful than a glorified agenda. Kormac was on and on about this bullshiat for over two years. I'm saying it won't be possible for a little while yet, but at least it's entering the realm of remote feasibility.
I was on a video shoot today. The client is partnering w/HP(Compaq) to market a full-cycle security product. It is a 'smart' camera that transmits live video to an iPaq.
Say what you want about the iPaq, but everyone in the room wanted one. Several people said that they should trade in their Palms for an iPaq. Despite the iPaq's size (including a PCMIA attachment) people were all over it. I was impressed.
Apple can do better than this if they want, and I think they should. A lite version of Jag could hold so much more potential than the Windoze OS the the iPaq uses.
With regard to the Tablet or PDA scenario, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Apple's finally going to give us the PDA we all want. (They finally gave us the 17" G4 iMac, Didn't they?)
My reasoning is simple. Apple has limited resources, especially in this economic climate, and chooses its software development priorities carefully.
While everyone's been going on and on speculating about Ink, very few have commented about the fact that in Jaguar, Apple completely rewrote the AddressBook...
Why would Apple devote resources to completely overhaul contact management when there are so many other enhancements/optimizations to undertake? You don't need a new AddressBook for a Tablet, the old one was fine. I think AddressBook is the next iApp, most people just haven't realized it yet.
Ink by itself is interesting, but in my humble opinion, Ink + new AddressBook = new PDA.
with all of the products that were in the MP3 player market when apple entered with the iPod, i'm amazed to this day that over a year and a half later, the iPod (with virtually no changes) is still the market leader.
markets are only saturated when the products offered are on the same level. you make something that's significantly better than the competition, and you've suddenly opened up a new markey and enticed new buyers.
i personally think that apple would be able to do this in the PDA market if they wanted to, but i'm not positive that they actually are going down this road.
I see lots of you have been missing one device... that new Sharp Zaurus... the one that boots linux? I was in Office Depot today, and I poked around with one... amazing sucker... it's the perfect PocketPC killer... Apple should sit up and take notice...
First, when you reboot the sucker, you see "INIT: Verson 2.78 Booting." The thing boots the FULL LINUX KERNEL... it is very strange to watch a linux boot cycle on a handheld device... very nice interface, responsive... looked like it used a version of the Sawfish window manager... hell, I have the same theme at school on the linux boxes running KDE! Played asteroids on it... wonderful brilliant screen, and when you push the arrows/buttons down to get to the keyboard, that is just really cool.
Now if Sharp can do this, think about what an iPad running 10.2.Go will be like!
*drools*
Now then... should I ebay my visor prism now or later?
<strong>so it CAN be done.......hmmmm</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Sharp device, and the fact you can run BSD in < 16megs off a floppy on a 386 perfectly useably, is why I've been defending the so called fake X-lite device.
Alas a lot of Mac users forget X is just BSD Unix, and that Aqua without the animation/transparency wouldn't use much CPU at all. Xfree86 is fine on a 386 with VGA.
A 33Mhz Dragonball (which is more powerful than a 386) could run BSD and a Aqua-like GUI. I know a Palm IIIc couldn't out of the box, but something not too different could.
<strong>looked like it used a version of the Sawfish window manager... hell, I have the same theme at school on the linux boxes running KDE!</strong><hr></blockquote>
The reason the Zaurus' window-manager looks like KDE is that they are both based on Trolltech's Qt library. Which (conveniently enough) can also be used for developing MacOSX applications.
Sharp also has a new Zaurus (only in Japan) which is thinner and lighter, but with the same screen-size. If Apple had to choose a hardware partner for developing PDAs, Sharp would be a good choice.
The Palm is bigger than anyone can imagine. It can do more than just Contacts, Appointments, and notes. There are many applications that can be used for other things.
Unlike the Newton, the Palm seems to have caught on more.
Besides I thought that Sony was helping Palm beef up its PalmOS with more multimedia features to compete with PocketPC and other PDAs?
BeOS is good, Apple should have bought them out, at least BeOS ran on PowerMacs unlike the NeXTOS, it would have taken a shorter time to convert. BeOS is like the next generation AmigaOS, but it died due to poor marketing and lack of enough applications to get the consumer to use it. It is best used as an OS for an Internet Appliance ala BeIA.
BSD Unix and the MACH Kernel are old technology, BeOS is a lot newer. The only advantage that OSX has over BeOS is that it can run Unix and Mac applications.
<strong>The Palm is bigger than anyone can imagine. It can do more than just Contacts, Appointments, and notes. There are many applications that can be used for other things.
Besides I thought that Sony was helping Palm beef up its PalmOS with more multimedia features to compete with PocketPC and other PDAs?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Palm is let down by its GUI and CPU, 160x160 really isn't very big, but of course PalmOS5 addresses both those issues so with luck it will allow a lot of new innovation.
I think Sony is just a licensee, but they are certainly making interesting devices. This is good as Apple has a quality reference it needs to surpass. Making something nicer than an m515 or Treo90 isn't that hard, but the Clie NR70V is quite special.
[quote]<strong>
Unlike the Newton, the Palm seems to have caught on more.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Newton would have if it hadn't been cancelled.
[quote]<strong>
BeOS is good, Apple should have bought them out, at least BeOS ran on PowerMacs unlike the NeXTOS, it would have taken a shorter time to convert. BeOS is like the next generation AmigaOS, but it died due to poor marketing and lack of enough applications to get the consumer to use it. It is best used as an OS for an Internet Appliance ala BeIA.
BSD Unix and the MACH Kernel are old technology, BeOS is a lot newer. The only advantage that OSX has over BeOS is that it can run Unix and Mac applications.</strong><hr></blockquote>
On the one hand you're saying BeOS is better than OSX, but on the other you say BeOS is more suited to Internet Appliances? Which is it?
BeOS failed because regardless of its quality, it had no market. PCs have Windows, Macs have MacOS, Linux fills the gaps. I agree Apple should have bought Be to use its features in OSX, but not instead of OSX.
Remember, 'new' does not always mean better. The reason why Macs are gaining more and more respect is because they run Unix. Hopefully an X-Lite PDA would get similar respect.
As for AmigaDOS, let it go. It was a great system which deserves to rest in peace with Jay Miner, not be trivialised into set top box and phone OS.
The reason the Zaurus' window-manager looks like KDE is that they are both based on Trolltech's Qt library. Which (conveniently enough) can also be used for developing MacOSX applications.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm. Interesting... maybe Apple has taken notice... an Apple-branded Zaurus, maybe?
Speaking of Apple and the Zaurus, does anyone know a way to sync a Zaurus with OS X?
On the one hand you're saying BeOS is better than OSX, but on the other you say BeOS is more suited to Internet Appliances? Which is it?
<hr></blockquote>
All I am saying is that BeOS is newer technology than OSX because the BSD and MACH Kernel are older. BeOS while a good desktop OS, is better suited for Internet Appliances because it lacks the applications that desktop users would want to use.
[quote]
BeOS failed because regardless of its quality, it had no market. PCs have Windows, Macs have MacOS, Linux fills the gaps. I agree Apple should have bought Be to use its features in OSX, but not instead of OSX.
<hr></blockquote>
There used to be the BeBox, which ran BeOS, remember the Geekport? BeOS also ran on PowerMacs until Apple refused to give Be the specs on the G3 Macs, so that kind of killed their PowerMac market. Then they went to the WINTEL X86 market, but Windows killed it. Some say that it might have done better if they open sourced BeOS.
[quote]
Remember, 'new' does not always mean better. The reason why Macs are gaining more and more respect is because they run Unix. Hopefully an X-Lite PDA would get similar respect.
<hr></blockquote>
Perhaps, but I still don't see Apple making a PDA after the Newton failure.
[quote]
As for AmigaDOS, let it go. It was a great system which deserves to rest in peace with Jay Miner, not be trivialised into set top box and phone OS.
<hr></blockquote>
Have I still have an Amiga 500 at home, my son likes to play the games on it. But anyway they have the AmigaDE or AmigaONE under development, if I had the money I'd buy one just to see what it can do. It is a shame that Apple didn't buy out Amiga when they had the chance. It could have added features to the Macintosh that didn't come about until OSX did. Imagine pre-emptive multitasking on a Mac way back in 1985 if Apple bought out the Amiga company to enhance its Mac line?
They have a G4 700Mhz version ready to go as soon as AmigaOS 4.0 comes out. It no longer needs an Amiga 1200 as a host, it is a stand alone computer now. If only they had the marketing and the dealers, they could challenge Apple.
Comments
Seems to me that apple might licence the Palm OS (to be both compatiable and standard based, both KEY marketing points in the NEW Apple), and then add their own features and design, ink, MP4, etc...
I think that palm is spliting up early next month? hummmm....
Seems like some thing else is going on then as well, lt me see if i can remember...
27ray
<strong>Steve, "We are not going to release a PDA" plus "We've been working very closely with these guys (Palm)" equals ...
"Palm is releasing an Apple enhanced PDA."</strong><hr></blockquote>
I hate to point this out, because Matsu will probably come in here and hyperventilate, but this is exactly what Kormac had been predicting for quite some time. That the small 1-device would be made by or in conjunction with Palm.
Hope springs eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
However, if true, it would be contingent on Palm's successful conversion to ARM processors (which is very close -- but not July close).
The Be 'takeover' [edit:] of Palm OS division shouldn't be brushed off either. Remember from what other company Be employees came from and who dominated the Palm ranks at one time.
I think this is a good case of a loop closing.
Screed ...unlike my computers, I do not care who makes the PDA, it just must fit my specification wants and needs.
[ 06-26-2002: Message edited by: sCreeD ]</p>
Isn't there supposed to be some bad blood between Steve Jobs and Jean-Louise Gassee (or maybe just the other way around) because of Apple buying out Next instead of Be at the last minute? Or was that all unconfirmed rumor?
If this is true, would Steve be more likely to go after that market aggressively? Esp. with the rumor of his failed Palm buyout attempt?
<strong>
I hate to point this out, because Matsu will probably come in here and hyperventilate, but this is exactly what Kormac had been predicting for quite some time. That the small 1-device would be made by or in conjunction with Palm.
Hope springs eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider</strong><hr></blockquote>
ERRR, somebody... get... me... a... paper bag. Wheeze, cough, sputter, choke.
Time frame. In another thread on the possibility I said that the idea of a Mac over Palm (similar to MacOSX over Unix) is just now entering the realm of possibility. Just now are Palms set to gain (they haven't got it yet) the right combination of power, battery life and useability to turn them into something slightly more useful than a glorified agenda. Kormac was on and on about this bullshiat for over two years. I'm saying it won't be possible for a little while yet, but at least it's entering the realm of remote feasibility.
Read my posts from <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001848"; target="_blank">this recent thread.</a> How many 'Requim for a Newton' threads do we need?
Say what you want about the iPaq, but everyone in the room wanted one. Several people said that they should trade in their Palms for an iPaq. Despite the iPaq's size (including a PCMIA attachment) people were all over it. I was impressed.
Apple can do better than this if they want, and I think they should. A lite version of Jag could hold so much more potential than the Windoze OS the the iPaq uses.
I think it's all about timing. If Apple has a cool enough product that can sell well in an already saturated marketplace then it'll happen.
Until then, I'll play with my new toy - I just bought a Newton 2100 off of eBay. I'll add it (and use it) to my slowly growing Apple collention.
Next up - eMate.
Apple Computer.
GOBBLE GOBBLE
Could happen.
What if it did?
D
My reasoning is simple. Apple has limited resources, especially in this economic climate, and chooses its software development priorities carefully.
While everyone's been going on and on speculating about Ink, very few have commented about the fact that in Jaguar, Apple completely rewrote the AddressBook...
Why would Apple devote resources to completely overhaul contact management when there are so many other enhancements/optimizations to undertake? You don't need a new AddressBook for a Tablet, the old one was fine. I think AddressBook is the next iApp, most people just haven't realized it yet.
Ink by itself is interesting, but in my humble opinion, Ink + new AddressBook = new PDA.
markets are only saturated when the products offered are on the same level. you make something that's significantly better than the competition, and you've suddenly opened up a new markey and enticed new buyers.
i personally think that apple would be able to do this in the PDA market if they wanted to, but i'm not positive that they actually are going down this road.
but sure would be cool if they did.
-alcimedes
First, when you reboot the sucker, you see "INIT: Verson 2.78 Booting." The thing boots the FULL LINUX KERNEL... it is very strange to watch a linux boot cycle on a handheld device... very nice interface, responsive... looked like it used a version of the Sawfish window manager... hell, I have the same theme at school on the linux boxes running KDE! Played asteroids on it... wonderful brilliant screen, and when you push the arrows/buttons down to get to the keyboard, that is just really cool.
Now if Sharp can do this, think about what an iPad running 10.2.Go will be like!
*drools*
Now then... should I ebay my visor prism now or later?
<strong>so it CAN be done.......hmmmm</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Sharp device, and the fact you can run BSD in < 16megs off a floppy on a 386 perfectly useably, is why I've been defending the so called fake X-lite device.
Alas a lot of Mac users forget X is just BSD Unix, and that Aqua without the animation/transparency wouldn't use much CPU at all. Xfree86 is fine on a 386 with VGA.
A 33Mhz Dragonball (which is more powerful than a 386) could run BSD and a Aqua-like GUI. I know a Palm IIIc couldn't out of the box, but something not too different could.
It might exist.
<strong>looked like it used a version of the Sawfish window manager... hell, I have the same theme at school on the linux boxes running KDE!</strong><hr></blockquote>
The reason the Zaurus' window-manager looks like KDE is that they are both based on Trolltech's Qt library. Which (conveniently enough) can also be used for developing MacOSX applications.
Sharp also has a new Zaurus (only in Japan) which is thinner and lighter, but with the same screen-size. If Apple had to choose a hardware partner for developing PDAs, Sharp would be a good choice.
Unlike the Newton, the Palm seems to have caught on more.
Besides I thought that Sony was helping Palm beef up its PalmOS with more multimedia features to compete with PocketPC and other PDAs?
BeOS is good, Apple should have bought them out, at least BeOS ran on PowerMacs unlike the NeXTOS, it would have taken a shorter time to convert. BeOS is like the next generation AmigaOS, but it died due to poor marketing and lack of enough applications to get the consumer to use it. It is best used as an OS for an Internet Appliance ala BeIA.
BSD Unix and the MACH Kernel are old technology, BeOS is a lot newer. The only advantage that OSX has over BeOS is that it can run Unix and Mac applications.
<strong>The Palm is bigger than anyone can imagine. It can do more than just Contacts, Appointments, and notes. There are many applications that can be used for other things.
Besides I thought that Sony was helping Palm beef up its PalmOS with more multimedia features to compete with PocketPC and other PDAs?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Palm is let down by its GUI and CPU, 160x160 really isn't very big, but of course PalmOS5 addresses both those issues so with luck it will allow a lot of new innovation.
I think Sony is just a licensee, but they are certainly making interesting devices. This is good as Apple has a quality reference it needs to surpass. Making something nicer than an m515 or Treo90 isn't that hard, but the Clie NR70V is quite special.
[quote]<strong>
Unlike the Newton, the Palm seems to have caught on more.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think Newton would have if it hadn't been cancelled.
[quote]<strong>
BeOS is good, Apple should have bought them out, at least BeOS ran on PowerMacs unlike the NeXTOS, it would have taken a shorter time to convert. BeOS is like the next generation AmigaOS, but it died due to poor marketing and lack of enough applications to get the consumer to use it. It is best used as an OS for an Internet Appliance ala BeIA.
BSD Unix and the MACH Kernel are old technology, BeOS is a lot newer. The only advantage that OSX has over BeOS is that it can run Unix and Mac applications.</strong><hr></blockquote>
On the one hand you're saying BeOS is better than OSX, but on the other you say BeOS is more suited to Internet Appliances? Which is it?
BeOS failed because regardless of its quality, it had no market. PCs have Windows, Macs have MacOS, Linux fills the gaps. I agree Apple should have bought Be to use its features in OSX, but not instead of OSX.
Remember, 'new' does not always mean better. The reason why Macs are gaining more and more respect is because they run Unix. Hopefully an X-Lite PDA would get similar respect.
As for AmigaDOS, let it go. It was a great system which deserves to rest in peace with Jay Miner, not be trivialised into set top box and phone OS.
<strong>
The reason the Zaurus' window-manager looks like KDE is that they are both based on Trolltech's Qt library. Which (conveniently enough) can also be used for developing MacOSX applications.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm. Interesting... maybe Apple has taken notice... an Apple-branded Zaurus, maybe?
Speaking of Apple and the Zaurus, does anyone know a way to sync a Zaurus with OS X?
On the one hand you're saying BeOS is better than OSX, but on the other you say BeOS is more suited to Internet Appliances? Which is it?
<hr></blockquote>
All I am saying is that BeOS is newer technology than OSX because the BSD and MACH Kernel are older. BeOS while a good desktop OS, is better suited for Internet Appliances because it lacks the applications that desktop users would want to use.
[quote]
BeOS failed because regardless of its quality, it had no market. PCs have Windows, Macs have MacOS, Linux fills the gaps. I agree Apple should have bought Be to use its features in OSX, but not instead of OSX.
<hr></blockquote>
There used to be the BeBox, which ran BeOS, remember the Geekport? BeOS also ran on PowerMacs until Apple refused to give Be the specs on the G3 Macs, so that kind of killed their PowerMac market. Then they went to the WINTEL X86 market, but Windows killed it. Some say that it might have done better if they open sourced BeOS.
[quote]
Remember, 'new' does not always mean better. The reason why Macs are gaining more and more respect is because they run Unix. Hopefully an X-Lite PDA would get similar respect.
<hr></blockquote>
Perhaps, but I still don't see Apple making a PDA after the Newton failure.
[quote]
As for AmigaDOS, let it go. It was a great system which deserves to rest in peace with Jay Miner, not be trivialised into set top box and phone OS.
<hr></blockquote>
Have I still have an Amiga 500 at home, my son likes to play the games on it.
<strong> The only advantage that OSX has over BeOS is that it can run Unix and Mac applications.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hardly worth mentioning. :cool:
<a href="http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/300502update.php"; target="_blank">http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/300502update.php</a>;
They have a G4 700Mhz version ready to go as soon as AmigaOS 4.0 comes out. It no longer needs an Amiga 1200 as a host, it is a stand alone computer now. If only they had the marketing and the dealers, they could challenge Apple.
[ 07-07-2002: Message edited by: Cable ]</p>