I'm to the point where I don't even want a G4-based Powerbook. Go ahead Apple, take another 3 months and throw a G5 in there, hell, I don't care if you wait until the 90nm process provides an ample number of chips. I am going to try to survive with this iBook until PBG5 comes out, no more of my money is going into a Moto product. Goodbye Moto...
I think that there was an arrogance and a real lack of understanding by the decision makers in the company to how bad things were.
For example: The newly hired CTO immediately (without any review) sweeps out all platforms in favor of WinTel, in order to "make [his] mark on the company." He could have just taken a leak on a shrub in the landscaping, but no.
That singular act of hubris cost Mot untold amounts in terms of company-wide disruption, running their business on a competitor's product, etc. But the CTO got to leave his mark on the business, all right.
Be more brutal, callous . . . "pain" and "suffering" are to be called upon for Moto . . . as long as it does not affect Apple, ie. after IBM developes an Altivec enabled G3 and a secondary supplier can be found to "replace" Moto.
"pain" and "suffering" are to be called upon for Moto . . . as long as it does not affect Apple
What do you think Mot has been going through the last few years?
And it does affect Apple: Even if IBM comes up with a G4 replacement, Apple has all their eggs in one basket.
So, while their management has made some astonishingly stupid decisions and allowed the company to lose ground in every single one of its core markets, we should not wish for the death of Motorola. We should wish for its redemption - which, of course, they'll have to earn. Maybe they can recruit some of the senior engineers abandoning Fiorina's HP in numbers...
...Maybe they can recruit some of the senior engineers abandoning Fiorina's HP in numbers...
Unfortunately, Motorola is too busy laying off people to recruit anyone. They are now laying off extremely core people to their programs. Institutional knowledge and experience is leaving out the door - they think they can recover these by moving development to India and China...
Motorola is like a guy stranded on a desert island who thinks he has made a brilliant discovery when he satiates ( sp? ) his hunger by cutting his own arm off, cooking it, and eating it... the only problem is that several hours later his other arm, or maybe a leg, begin to look appetizing...
Who has told analyst ( when asked ) that he will never leave the company. I get a visual of Ahab stabbing a white whale and going down to a watery grave.
Here's some anectdotes of Mot's incompetance.
When competing standards TDMA and CDMA came on the scene ( GSM was known but considered a "European" technology), Motorola refused to take the lead on either technology but wanted to wait to let the "market" decide. The only problem with this was that the market was uneducated about the risks and differences between the two standards and would need to be educated about the technologies. Motorola was in a perfect place to guide the market. They dropped the ball and it was taken from them.
There are more... my fingers grow weary!
( edited for spelling )
Another spin on your comments. When GSM started, Motorola pooh poohed it as not going to go anywhere as they arrogantly thought world standards can only be established by American firms. Years later they had no choice but move into the GSM business but by then too late. For years I can travel to Europe, all over Asia (except Japan) and South America with GSM roaming and not in the US. The same for Americans, phones just didn't roam anywhere in the world. Now its clear GSM has been the dominant force world wide.
Then they make another mistake of the same genre, on the "walkie talkies". They dominated the world on the analogue version. As the business moves to digital versions, the Europeans established a new standard called Tetra, invited Moto to join. Moto decided not to and again wanted to be like MS and establish its own standard called IDEN- Moto proprietary system. Now Tetra has again became the new main stream world standard with IDEN only going to some minor markets.
The latest fiasco again involves MS- Moto dropping out of the Symbian Group to line up with MS on Smart phone . Symbian is the mobile phone operating system consortium including Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung and others. Basically the who is who in mobile phones. They will die with MS "Smart" phone as phone users don't want to see the blue screen of death on their phones. You want to be able to turn it on and make and receive calls - period. Symbian does that for you with PDA functions added.
Oh, there was the Iridium fiasco as well.
Don't think the future bodes well for Moto, fast moving to become a subsidiary of M$ it seems.
Always the same: Some rumor site post a "Steve shouts at MOT" story and the same persons as usual post their same "die moto" stuff. Isn't that getting boring? If a rumor say MOT is bad, is it automatically the truth? Strange that O'Grady says something completely different, isn't it. Could we please get back to take rumors for that what they are: just rumors!
The latest fiasco again involves MS- Moto dropping out of the Symbian Group to line up with MS on Smart phone . Symbian is the mobile phone operating system consortium including Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung and others. Basically the who is who in mobile phones. They will die with MS "Smart" phone as phone users don't want to see the blue screen of death on their phones. You want to be able to turn it on and make and receive calls - period. Symbian does that for you with PDA functions added.
They really had very little choice here. They were going to die if they stayed with Symbian it's just a matter of if they will die faster now. I rather think Microsoft will have given them some generous offerings to lure them to this given their size and share in the US market though.
Microsoft actually has a habit of going after companies in poor positions then teaming up with them to push a product they want to take off. Down the line they then screw the hell out the company they teamed with but that's life.
They really had very little choice here. They were going to die if they stayed with Symbian it's just a matter of if they will die faster now. I rather think Microsoft will have given them some generous offerings to lure them to this given their size and share in the US market though.
Me thinks that we're letting SJ off easily. Since when do we start blaming the suppliers when the store ain't able to deliver. Mc Donald's is out of burgers: we'll damn them f***ing cows for growing so slowly. What the howl is Jobs being paid for but to see to it that he delivers good products in good time! The one that takes the credit should also take the blame (when it's due)...
I'll be howling with the rest of the wolves when there's no PB update at Paris.
Motorola hasn't only been going backwards in the semiconductor market they've been struggling and losing ground in a lot of their traditional markets, including the mobile phone market where it has lost a lot of ground to Samsung. When Samsung signed as a Symbian partner Motorola basically had to change tact or run he risk of going nowhere.
They've really managed to fail repeatedly lately in the mobile arena and by teaming up with Microsoft they become a key supplier for a company that will be willing to throw a lot of money in to see success. It keeps Motorola stable for a while and gives them a chance to rebuild. Of course there's a chance nobody wants Microsoft phones that crash and that Motorola will just keep shrinking but Motorola was going to lose more market if they did nothing anyway.
Always fun to wade through the various "your processor are all belong to Motorola and last to the kind not of before" kind of phrases that on-the-fly translators provide.
Not translators - but unedited Machine Translation!
Isn't that getting boring? If a rumor say MOT is bad, is it automatically the truth?
Kicking Moto' around a gravely car park never loses its novelty.
Who cares about the rumour?
I know Moto' are bad. In my eyes it is automatically the truth. I've witnessed the last four years of Moto' cpu development. Not good for Apple's marketshare. Wonder where those Powerbooks got to? Could it be yields on Moto's 'new' G4 processor? (Just how many times can one cpu get revised...) Poor Apple get to have a 1 gig G4 while PC owners get the hellish Xp but a blazingly fast 3 gig Pentium 4 for the same money.
There's rumours and what you can buy in the shop. Going by that, OS aside, I'd have to say Intel did their job and Moto didn't.
Moto' couldn't get it up. IBM's G5 only highlights the hilarity of the G4 updates which are miniscule and pathetic. Two 'top end' g4s are nowhere near the top end Pentium single processor. Even the 'humble' 1.6 G5 (unoptimised) gives the dual G4s all kinds of pain...
Thank gawd the G5 is here. 'Tonka Cpu'? IF Steve is rumoured to have said it then that is good enough for me.
I'll take his (rumoured) word for it.
Lemon Bon Bon
8)
'Die extremely slowly and painfully...Moto...whilst becoming...erm...a 'mere' subsiduary of M$ 'Subsiduary'...ie some level within the bowls Dantes Inferno...' (Well, I had to post some original content to keep this thread active...)
Here is an interesting post about Motorola on the IGM board:
Well, I believe if anybody had read the press release put out by Motorola, they would see that the 7457 will enter full production in the 4th quarter of 2003. That translates to October through December and new PowerBooks using this chip appearing in late October, early November, at the earliest, unless they've managed to get a few thousand during the sampling runs.
Sampling runs will always carry the stigma of process problems with them. Which is probably why the G5 has better yields. So the next question is, "Why the late timing for the production run?"
This time it's not really process problems that are keeping huge numbers of 7457s from being manufactured, but intangibles concerning Motorola's long term manufacturing capabilities. Technically, Motorola is being caught between upgrading their current facilities and suddenly rising chip orders from other customers. The MOS-13 plant at the Ed Bluestein campus in Austin,TX, where they make the current 7455, is currently being upgraded to a 90nm process from the current 130nm and won't be fully operational until spring 2004.
To take up the slack they have the MOS-12 plant at the Oak Hills campus and a MOS-12 plant in Chadler, Arizona. The Oak Hills plant is stuck at the 180nm process for the time being, mostly catching up with some huge cutomer orders. The Chandler plant just finished the changeover from 180nm to 130nm processing and is the likely candidate for 7457 manufacturing. However, it too is showing competitive pressure from other customers's orders including continuing to fill Apple's own 7455 orders. And none of these plants are 300mm wafer plants which means the 7457 will be a relatively expensive chip.
What do you think Mot has been going through the last few years?
True, they've been going through "pain", but Apple has suffered too. That's why I qualified my response to incorporate "after IBM releases the Altivec enhanced G3 and a secondary supplier is found to replace Moto".
Quote:
And it does affect Apple: Even if IBM comes up with a G4 replacement, Apple has all their eggs in one basket.
Not if, as I mentioned above, another secondary supplier replaces Moto. . . the impact on Apple "may" be minimal.
Quote:
So, while their management has made some astonishingly stupid decisions and allowed the company to lose ground in every single one of its core markets, we should not wish for the death of Motorola. We should wish for its redemption - which, of course, they'll have to earn. Maybe they can recruit some of the senior engineers abandoning Fiorina's HP in numbers...
Apple likes options, remember.
Ahh, I do agree with you, and even concede that Moto the company shouldn't be punished. The employees can't help it if their upper management is inept. Thanks for helping me change my mind from watching Moto agonize, to watching the Moto management, responsible for the debacle, agonize (and I qualify the change of mind statement by saying that I don't want either Moto or Apple to suffer due to the "pain" inflicted upon those responsible).
I still think Apple should get another supplier, in addition to IBM and Moto (AMD maybe?? and I'm not talking about running WinBlos, but OSX on a PPC based chip).
Comments
Originally posted by tink
My $0.02 on MOT.
I think that there was an arrogance and a real lack of understanding by the decision makers in the company to how bad things were.
For example: The newly hired CTO immediately (without any review) sweeps out all platforms in favor of WinTel, in order to "make [his] mark on the company." He could have just taken a leak on a shrub in the landscaping, but no.
That singular act of hubris cost Mot untold amounts in terms of company-wide disruption, running their business on a competitor's product, etc. But the CTO got to leave his mark on the business, all right.
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
Die Moto Die!
Lemon Bon Bon
"Die" is too good for Moto, too quick.
Be more brutal, callous . . . "pain" and "suffering" are to be called upon for Moto . . . as long as it does not affect Apple, ie. after IBM developes an Altivec enabled G3 and a secondary supplier can be found to "replace" Moto.
Originally posted by MacJedai
"pain" and "suffering" are to be called upon for Moto . . . as long as it does not affect Apple
What do you think Mot has been going through the last few years?
And it does affect Apple: Even if IBM comes up with a G4 replacement, Apple has all their eggs in one basket.
So, while their management has made some astonishingly stupid decisions and allowed the company to lose ground in every single one of its core markets, we should not wish for the death of Motorola. We should wish for its redemption - which, of course, they'll have to earn. Maybe they can recruit some of the senior engineers abandoning Fiorina's HP in numbers...
Apple likes options, remember.
Originally posted by Amorph
...Maybe they can recruit some of the senior engineers abandoning Fiorina's HP in numbers...
Unfortunately, Motorola is too busy laying off people to recruit anyone. They are now laying off extremely core people to their programs. Institutional knowledge and experience is leaving out the door - they think they can recover these by moving development to India and China...
Motorola is like a guy stranded on a desert island who thinks he has made a brilliant discovery when he satiates ( sp? ) his hunger by cutting his own arm off, cooking it, and eating it... the only problem is that several hours later his other arm, or maybe a leg, begin to look appetizing...
Originally posted by chazmox
Who has told analyst ( when asked ) that he will never leave the company. I get a visual of Ahab stabbing a white whale and going down to a watery grave.
Here's some anectdotes of Mot's incompetance.
When competing standards TDMA and CDMA came on the scene ( GSM was known but considered a "European" technology), Motorola refused to take the lead on either technology but wanted to wait to let the "market" decide. The only problem with this was that the market was uneducated about the risks and differences between the two standards and would need to be educated about the technologies. Motorola was in a perfect place to guide the market. They dropped the ball and it was taken from them.
There are more... my fingers grow weary!
( edited for spelling )
Another spin on your comments. When GSM started, Motorola pooh poohed it as not going to go anywhere as they arrogantly thought world standards can only be established by American firms. Years later they had no choice but move into the GSM business but by then too late. For years I can travel to Europe, all over Asia (except Japan) and South America with GSM roaming and not in the US. The same for Americans, phones just didn't roam anywhere in the world. Now its clear GSM has been the dominant force world wide.
Then they make another mistake of the same genre, on the "walkie talkies". They dominated the world on the analogue version. As the business moves to digital versions, the Europeans established a new standard called Tetra, invited Moto to join. Moto decided not to and again wanted to be like MS and establish its own standard called IDEN- Moto proprietary system. Now Tetra has again became the new main stream world standard with IDEN only going to some minor markets.
The latest fiasco again involves MS- Moto dropping out of the Symbian Group to line up with MS on Smart phone . Symbian is the mobile phone operating system consortium including Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung and others. Basically the who is who in mobile phones. They will die with MS "Smart" phone as phone users don't want to see the blue screen of death on their phones. You want to be able to turn it on and make and receive calls - period. Symbian does that for you with PDA functions added.
Oh, there was the Iridium fiasco as well.
Don't think the future bodes well for Moto, fast moving to become a subsidiary of M$ it seems.
Always the same: Some rumor site post a "Steve shouts at MOT" story and the same persons as usual post their same "die moto" stuff. Isn't that getting boring? If a rumor say MOT is bad, is it automatically the truth? Strange that O'Grady says something completely different, isn't it. Could we please get back to take rumors for that what they are: just rumors!
thx in advance
End of Line
Originally posted by BJer
The latest fiasco again involves MS- Moto dropping out of the Symbian Group to line up with MS on Smart phone . Symbian is the mobile phone operating system consortium including Ericsson, Nokia, Samsung and others. Basically the who is who in mobile phones. They will die with MS "Smart" phone as phone users don't want to see the blue screen of death on their phones. You want to be able to turn it on and make and receive calls - period. Symbian does that for you with PDA functions added.
They really had very little choice here. They were going to die if they stayed with Symbian it's just a matter of if they will die faster now. I rather think Microsoft will have given them some generous offerings to lure them to this given their size and share in the US market though.
Microsoft actually has a habit of going after companies in poor positions then teaming up with them to push a product they want to take off. Down the line they then screw the hell out the company they teamed with but that's life.
Originally posted by machem
BTW, macbippy says they are getting out of the rumors biz (just posted there). 2) they might lose access to Apple events b/c of the wrath of SJ.
In my opinion he should use all of his wrath on Moto..
Originally posted by Telomar
They really had very little choice here. They were going to die if they stayed with Symbian it's just a matter of if they will die faster now. I rather think Microsoft will have given them some generous offerings to lure them to this given their size and share in the US market though.
Why do you say this Telomar?
I'll be howling with the rest of the wolves when there's no PB update at Paris.
Originally posted by Pandoering
Mc Donald's is out of burgers: we'll damn them f***ing cows for growing so slowly.
I am not sure cows are produced by MacD employees f u c k i n g cows
They've really managed to fail repeatedly lately in the mobile arena and by teaming up with Microsoft they become a key supplier for a company that will be willing to throw a lot of money in to see success. It keeps Motorola stable for a while and gives them a chance to rebuild. Of course there's a chance nobody wants Microsoft phones that crash and that Motorola will just keep shrinking but Motorola was going to lose more market if they did nothing anyway.
Originally posted by pscates
I can't even read that post!
Always fun to wade through the various "your processor are all belong to Motorola and last to the kind not of before" kind of phrases that on-the-fly translators provide.
Not translators - but unedited Machine Translation!
Isn't that getting boring? If a rumor say MOT is bad, is it automatically the truth?
Kicking Moto' around a gravely car park never loses its novelty.
Who cares about the rumour?
I know Moto' are bad. In my eyes it is automatically the truth. I've witnessed the last four years of Moto' cpu development. Not good for Apple's marketshare. Wonder where those Powerbooks got to? Could it be yields on Moto's 'new' G4 processor? (Just how many times can one cpu get revised...) Poor Apple get to have a 1 gig G4 while PC owners get the hellish Xp but a blazingly fast 3 gig Pentium 4 for the same money.
There's rumours and what you can buy in the shop. Going by that, OS aside, I'd have to say Intel did their job and Moto didn't.
Moto' couldn't get it up. IBM's G5 only highlights the hilarity of the G4 updates which are miniscule and pathetic. Two 'top end' g4s are nowhere near the top end Pentium single processor. Even the 'humble' 1.6 G5 (unoptimised) gives the dual G4s all kinds of pain...
Thank gawd the G5 is here. 'Tonka Cpu'? IF Steve is rumoured to have said it then that is good enough for me.
I'll take his (rumoured) word for it.
Lemon Bon Bon
'Die extremely slowly and painfully...Moto...whilst becoming...erm...a 'mere' subsiduary of M$ 'Subsiduary'...ie some level within the bowls Dantes Inferno...' (Well, I had to post some original content to keep this thread active...)
Well, I believe if anybody had read the press release put out by Motorola, they would see that the 7457 will enter full production in the 4th quarter of 2003. That translates to October through December and new PowerBooks using this chip appearing in late October, early November, at the earliest, unless they've managed to get a few thousand during the sampling runs.
Sampling runs will always carry the stigma of process problems with them. Which is probably why the G5 has better yields. So the next question is, "Why the late timing for the production run?"
This time it's not really process problems that are keeping huge numbers of 7457s from being manufactured, but intangibles concerning Motorola's long term manufacturing capabilities. Technically, Motorola is being caught between upgrading their current facilities and suddenly rising chip orders from other customers. The MOS-13 plant at the Ed Bluestein campus in Austin,TX, where they make the current 7455, is currently being upgraded to a 90nm process from the current 130nm and won't be fully operational until spring 2004.
To take up the slack they have the MOS-12 plant at the Oak Hills campus and a MOS-12 plant in Chadler, Arizona. The Oak Hills plant is stuck at the 180nm process for the time being, mostly catching up with some huge cutomer orders. The Chandler plant just finished the changeover from 180nm to 130nm processing and is the likely candidate for 7457 manufacturing. However, it too is showing competitive pressure from other customers's orders including continuing to fill Apple's own 7455 orders. And none of these plants are 300mm wafer plants which means the 7457 will be a relatively expensive chip.
Originally posted by Amorph
What do you think Mot has been going through the last few years?
True, they've been going through "pain", but Apple has suffered too. That's why I qualified my response to incorporate "after IBM releases the Altivec enhanced G3 and a secondary supplier is found to replace Moto".
And it does affect Apple: Even if IBM comes up with a G4 replacement, Apple has all their eggs in one basket.
Not if, as I mentioned above, another secondary supplier replaces Moto. . . the impact on Apple "may" be minimal.
So, while their management has made some astonishingly stupid decisions and allowed the company to lose ground in every single one of its core markets, we should not wish for the death of Motorola. We should wish for its redemption - which, of course, they'll have to earn. Maybe they can recruit some of the senior engineers abandoning Fiorina's HP in numbers...
Apple likes options, remember.
Ahh, I do agree with you, and even concede that Moto the company shouldn't be punished. The employees can't help it if their upper management is inept. Thanks for helping me change my mind from watching Moto agonize, to watching the Moto management, responsible for the debacle, agonize (and I qualify the change of mind statement by saying that I don't want either Moto or Apple to suffer due to the "pain" inflicted upon those responsible).
I still think Apple should get another supplier, in addition to IBM and Moto (AMD maybe?? and I'm not talking about running WinBlos, but OSX on a PPC based chip).
Thanks Amorph