Matsu, I completely agree with you. The Macintosh is the best computer for almost everything out there...home use, digital video, 2D illustration and design, etc. Sadly, gaming is not one of those things.
Apple will never be able to beat the x86 world in hardcore gaming because of their marketshare and just the way the Macintosh is designed and the vision that Steve has for Apple. If Apple tried to change that, they'd lose money and customers.
<strong>Yeah...according to MacWorld, in a November 2001 article (Product review of the Power Mac G4/800 Dual Processor), the 867MHz Power Mac can do 107 FPS in quake, and thats with a stock video card. The dual 800 does 95. Just imagine those things with a GeForce3..mmmm.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have an 867 w geforce3, and you wont hear any complaints from me.
The lights dim. A figure walks out onto the stage.
Bill Gates.
He explains that, to placate the states that want Office for Macintosh guaranteed indefinitely, he bought Apple and turned it over to a trustworthy party. It takes him 20 minutes of droning to get this across. Finally, he introduces Apple's new CEO:
Mike Dell takes the stage, sipping from a Starbuck's cup.
Mike explains that the platform is being retired, which doesn't matter because it was so insignificant anyway. He will keep the brand around, though: Any models that Dell discontinues will be spraypainted bright colors ("Apple's only real innovation," sneers Gates) and marketed as a Macintosh - at the old Apple price points ("You guys are used to that price/performance ratio anyway," Dell harrumphs).
Gates notes that it will now be very easy for MS to offer Office for Macintosh into the foreseeable future, and spends the next three hours droning on about COM and DCOM and .NET.
What happened to Steve? The big screen darkens, then shows Jobs in a beige padded cell, straitjacketed, while Steve Ballmer shouts "Give it up for me!" and runs around the room.
Bill Gates reappears, and spends six more hours droning on about Windows XP.
(Actually, this probably wouldn't make me switch. It would make me give computers up altogether. )
[quote]Apple will never be able to beat the x86 world in hardcore gaming because of their marketshare and just the way the Macintosh is designed and the vision that Steve has for Apple. If Apple tried to change that, they'd lose money and customers.<hr></blockquote>
Why not?
Hardcore gamers wants frames/sec which is based on GPU speed, AGP bus throughput, CPU speed and CPU-memory throughput--all of which when improved on the Mac would make it good for gaming, and by strange coincidence anyone else who gives a damn about performance. Hint the PM core market is supposed to graphics pros and power users. If thats not in Steve's vision then Apple has a problem.
Fred Anderson (Apple's CFO) walks out on stage, picks up the microphone:
"Hello. I'll try to make this brief. It turns out that Mike Dell was right. After consultation with the Board of Directors, we have decided that the best use of Apple's resources for the benefit of the shareholders is to dissolve the company, sell the assets, and return the money directly back to the shareholders.
While we understand that this appears to strand our large user base, we have prepared what we believe to be an appropriate migration path towards Microsoft. Allow me to please introduce Bill Gates."
And after that, I migrate my home machines to Linux.
Too bad my flashing of the PC Geoforce II didnt work, looks like all I have now is a radeon option </strong><hr></blockquote>
You tried to flash a regular GeForce 2? It will never work. You need a GeForce 2 MX or a GeForce 3, and they *have* to follow the nVidia reference design. Asus and Hercules are a good bet.
The reason a Geforce 2 won't work is that the Mac and the PC communicate with the PCI/AGP bus in different directions. Big-endian vs. Little-endian, or something like that. Basically, the Geforce2 MX is the first nVidia card that could interpret both little- and big-endian busses.
That's the basic jist of it, anyways. I used to know this very well, but I haven't been paying close attention to this stuff any more.
I'd like to try flashing a GF2MX (mmm...64MB video card), but I don't have a PC to do it on. And all of my friends are weenies and would never let me crack open the case.
it's a month BEFORE macworld and people are already complaining about the products......geesh
can we just think a little more positively? please? i know this thread is supposed to be neg, but do you really think apple's going to bring out a 500Mhz PM?
macs are a little slower than PCs....ok....but apple's selling point is not speed, but quality products. PM are about trying to be as fast as they can be, but you can't blame them......it's really hard to keep up with AMD and Intel......
To the people who are bitching a moaning about future products being too slow, I urge you to find an 867 MHz or Dual 800 MHz G4, sit down, and try things on it. It's fast. Faster would be nice, but, seriously, what's a 20 second wait compared to a 15 second wait? It's not going to change that drastically, so don't get your hopes up. I'd be happy if I had an 867 MHz G4, but I don't. I have a 500 MHz iBook and a 400 MHz PowerBook G3, and you know what? They work. And they're not that slow either.
<strong>what's with all the bitching and negativity??
it's a month BEFORE macworld and people are already complaining about the products......geesh
can we just think a little more positively? please? i know this thread is supposed to be neg, but do you really think apple's going to bring out a 500Mhz PM?
macs are a little slower than PCs....ok....but apple's selling point is not speed, but quality products. PM are about trying to be as fast as they can be, but you can't blame them......it's really hard to keep up with AMD and Intel......
so can we all just relax a little?
[end of pointless rant........]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, you can do much more out of the box with a Mac than you can with a PC. This is what Apple's whole advertising campaign is trying to show. It's all about having the best consumer oriented software solutions. Hardware buffs need not apply. I own a Mac because I enjoy using OS X, iMovie, and iTunes. Apple needs more agressive marketing, but I don't think they need to tout superior hardware to succeed.
Steve Jobs stomps on stage, dragging a table with a Quicksilver case and an imac behind him...
Jobs: Well, first the good news. Adobe Photoshop 6.5 for OS X is here. And we are going to release Mac OS X 10.2 and Mac OS 9.3.
::Crowd cheers::
Thats about it for good news. Heres the bad news. We aren't selling a whole lot of PM G4's, so to reduce price, we are now upgrading it to a G3 processor @ 350MHz because those ****ing pricks at Moto have their heads up their ***es. Also, we are now including the Rage Pro as standard graphics card, it only has space for one drive, so no more internal zip, and we are wiping out our line of lcd monitors, since everyone bought third party displays anyway. Plus there is no more firewire, only 1 adb port for our recycle old keyboards and mice program. And its now at the low, low price of $3,399. Only one model.
::Several people in crowd start to draw guns, and fire at the stage::
As for the iMac, well, thats our new cheap display. Were going to stop putting in most of the componets including the processor and you can hook it directly to the new G4.
::The rest of the people, except the ones carrying around laptops, start to draw guns and fire at the stage::
Now about the iPod. Since it was priced so high, we are now introducing the iPod LC, @ $35. It includes, among other things:
-A standard cacluator display.
-A serial port (cant be used with any current macs)
-A 550 mb ata hard drive.
-A random, unlabeled assortment of buttons.
-Some kind of euorpean sound port. Did we mention it cant play mp3's anymore?
New marketing slogan: 100 of your favorite songs, now able to fit in your backpack.
For portables, we are upgrading to theG3 processor @ 233MHz. Also, we are recyclying old adb keyboards and mice, as well as 14 inch applevision displays, and including these, so they now all weigh 50 pounds and take up about as much space as the new display (imac). On a side note, the ibook now comes with an lcd watch, since we couldnt get the ****ing pram to work right. Oh well.
Now for airport. No one bought it. Too ****ing expensive. So we are duct taping them to the g4's as a present.
::Crowd cheers::
[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: James Flowers ]</p>
<strong>Here?s the horror MWSF that would truly drive me away for good:
The ?Revolutionary? New LCD iMac:
800 MHz G3
Same old 8x4x24 CDRW
Same old PC100 RAM
16MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
60 Gig HD
15? LCD
$1499 (Fastest; I don?t even want to think about Fast and Faster?)
I start learning Linux.
-mithral</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, good luck with that, pal.
What in the hell kind of iMac are you expecting?!? You're not one of these snapperheads actually thinking the iMac is going to magically jump up to a 17" 1GHz G4 with SuperDrive and a TwinView video card, all for $1099, are you?
Jeez.
There's NOTHING wrong with the specs you listed. As a matter of fact, replace the CD-R drive with a DVD/CD-R combo drive and I'm there!
You sound like a total G4 candidate. But I imagine if they're not up to 2.2GHz come next month, you're not interested, right?
Oddly enough, this is probably the most realistic and probable outcome of MWSF. Just watch. Maybe the prices will be a LITTLE less...but just a little.
Of course, no one will abandon the Apple platform. Steve will get you all with this evergrowing RDF (Reality Distortion Feild)
-Moazam
[quote]Originally posted by Mithral:
<strong>Here?s the horror MWSF that would truly drive me away for good:
The ?Revolutionary? New LCD iMac:
800 MHz G3
Same old 8x4x24 CDRW
Same old PC100 RAM
16MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
60 Gig HD
15? LCD
$1499 (Fastest; I don?t even want to think about Fast and Faster?)
The All-New PowerMac G4:
1.0 GHz G4 / Dual 933 MHz G4
SuperDrive (whee.)
PC 133 RAM (still)
32MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
80Gig HD / 100 Gig HD (ooh, a 20 Gig boost. Each. Ooh.)
$2499 / $3499 (the low end machine is too dreary to mention)
Photoshop for OSX: Shipping in March!! Or April!!
\t(Actually ships on April 27th , performs so slowly you?d think it was a beta)
Mini-Lecture About the MHz Myth
Ensuing Bakeoff
\tTwelve Photoshop filters that only 3% of the population uses
\t$3500 G4 wipes the floor with a $1500 P4 1.8 GHz (monitor included, probably)
\t
Displays:
\t15? ? same old resolution, $449
\t17? ? 1280x1024 (same), $799
\t19? ? same resolution as 17? , $1399
\t22? ? same resolution, $2399 (?we dropped the price! $100!!)
Oh, and one more thing:
\t?We brought back the Cube. Introducing, the SuperCube2K2!!?
[quote]macs are a little slower than PCs<hr></blockquote>
heeeheeee. you funny man.
[quote]To the people who are bitching a moaning about future products being too slow, I urge you to find an 867 MHz or Dual 800 MHz G4, sit down, and try things on it. It's fast. Faster would be nice, but, seriously, what's a 20 second wait compared to a 15 second wait? It's not going to change that drastically, so don't get your hopes up.<hr></blockquote>
Been there done that. Not fast enough. Try an 8-hour render vs. a 2-hour render. Or 20 seconds vs. 10 seconds forty or fifty times over an eight hour day. Dude people actually use these things for work, and a 400mhz jump over two+ years don't cut it anymore. Nor does the lack of DDR--this would help those slow G4 speeds more than anything else.
People [pros] are desperate for decent Apple hardware. If Apple were to release anything resembling a faster G4 watch the flood of upgrades. I try to upgrade business machines every 2 years, but I now have a G4/500 cube, a sort of "sidegrade" from a 9600/350 cause I just couldn't buy a PM tower. When I bought the 9600/350 I went from a 120mhz 601 to a 350mhz 604e. Man that 9600 spun my head it was so freaking fast. Haven't had the same feeling sitting in front of an 867 or a DP800. Still waiting to be impressed.
Comments
Apple will never be able to beat the x86 world in hardcore gaming because of their marketshare and just the way the Macintosh is designed and the vision that Steve has for Apple. If Apple tried to change that, they'd lose money and customers.
<strong>Yeah...according to MacWorld, in a November 2001 article (Product review of the Power Mac G4/800 Dual Processor), the 867MHz Power Mac can do 107 FPS in quake, and thats with a stock video card. The dual 800 does 95. Just imagine those things with a GeForce3..mmmm.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have an 867 w geforce3, and you wont hear any complaints from me.
While I get 35 (outside) and 50 (inside) using my G4/400 AGP ATI-RAGE 128.
Too bad my flashing of the PC Geoforce II didnt work, looks like all I have now is a radeon option
Sigh.
The lights dim. A figure walks out onto the stage.
Bill Gates.
He explains that, to placate the states that want Office for Macintosh guaranteed indefinitely, he bought Apple and turned it over to a trustworthy party. It takes him 20 minutes of droning to get this across. Finally, he introduces Apple's new CEO:
Mike Dell takes the stage, sipping from a Starbuck's cup.
Mike explains that the platform is being retired, which doesn't matter because it was so insignificant anyway. He will keep the brand around, though: Any models that Dell discontinues will be spraypainted bright colors ("Apple's only real innovation," sneers Gates) and marketed as a Macintosh - at the old Apple price points ("You guys are used to that price/performance ratio anyway," Dell harrumphs).
Gates notes that it will now be very easy for MS to offer Office for Macintosh into the foreseeable future, and spends the next three hours droning on about COM and DCOM and .NET.
What happened to Steve? The big screen darkens, then shows Jobs in a beige padded cell, straitjacketed, while Steve Ballmer shouts "Give it up for me!" and runs around the room.
Bill Gates reappears, and spends six more hours droning on about Windows XP.
(Actually, this probably wouldn't make me switch. It would make me give computers up altogether.
Why not?
Hardcore gamers wants frames/sec which is based on GPU speed, AGP bus throughput, CPU speed and CPU-memory throughput--all of which when improved on the Mac would make it good for gaming, and by strange coincidence anyone else who gives a damn about performance. Hint the PM core market is supposed to graphics pros and power users. If thats not in Steve's vision then Apple has a problem.
Curtain opens on stage.
Fred Anderson (Apple's CFO) walks out on stage, picks up the microphone:
"Hello. I'll try to make this brief. It turns out that Mike Dell was right. After consultation with the Board of Directors, we have decided that the best use of Apple's resources for the benefit of the shareholders is to dissolve the company, sell the assets, and return the money directly back to the shareholders.
While we understand that this appears to strand our large user base, we have prepared what we believe to be an appropriate migration path towards Microsoft. Allow me to please introduce Bill Gates."
And after that, I migrate my home machines to Linux.
-HOS
<strong>
Too bad my flashing of the PC Geoforce II didnt work, looks like all I have now is a radeon option
You tried to flash a regular GeForce 2? It will never work. You need a GeForce 2 MX or a GeForce 3, and they *have* to follow the nVidia reference design. Asus and Hercules are a good bet.
The reason a Geforce 2 won't work is that the Mac and the PC communicate with the PCI/AGP bus in different directions. Big-endian vs. Little-endian, or something like that. Basically, the Geforce2 MX is the first nVidia card that could interpret both little- and big-endian busses.
That's the basic jist of it, anyways. I used to know this very well, but I haven't been paying close attention to this stuff any more.
----------------------------
Here?s the horror MWSF that would truly drive me away for good:
The ?Revolutionary? New LCD iMac:
800 MHz G3
Same old 8x4x24 CDRW
Same old PC100 RAM
16MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
60 Gig HD
15? LCD
$1499 (Fastest; I don?t even want to think about Fast and Faster?)
The All-New PowerMac G4:
1.0 GHz G4 / Dual 933 MHz G4
SuperDrive (whee.)
PC 133 RAM (still)
32MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
80Gig HD / 100 Gig HD (ooh, a 20 Gig boost. Each. Ooh.)
$2499 / $3499 (the low end machine is too dreary to mention)
I really think that it is what is going to happen... If so I switch to the PC side
You see where I'm going...
it's a month BEFORE macworld and people are already complaining about the products......geesh
can we just think a little more positively? please? i know this thread is supposed to be neg, but do you really think apple's going to bring out a 500Mhz PM?
macs are a little slower than PCs....ok....but apple's selling point is not speed, but quality products. PM are about trying to be as fast as they can be, but you can't blame them......it's really hard to keep up with AMD and Intel......
so can we all just relax a little?
[end of pointless rant........]
<strong>I really think that it is what is going to happen... If so I switch to the PC side</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let's just hope it doesn't happen.
Thank you for your time.
<strong>what's with all the bitching and negativity??
it's a month BEFORE macworld and people are already complaining about the products......geesh
can we just think a little more positively? please? i know this thread is supposed to be neg, but do you really think apple's going to bring out a 500Mhz PM?
macs are a little slower than PCs....ok....but apple's selling point is not speed, but quality products. PM are about trying to be as fast as they can be, but you can't blame them......it's really hard to keep up with AMD and Intel......
so can we all just relax a little?
[end of pointless rant........]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree, you can do much more out of the box with a Mac than you can with a PC. This is what Apple's whole advertising campaign is trying to show. It's all about having the best consumer oriented software solutions. Hardware buffs need not apply. I own a Mac because I enjoy using OS X, iMovie, and iTunes. Apple needs more agressive marketing, but I don't think they need to tout superior hardware to succeed.
Jobs: Well, first the good news. Adobe Photoshop 6.5 for OS X is here. And we are going to release Mac OS X 10.2 and Mac OS 9.3.
::Crowd cheers::
Thats about it for good news. Heres the bad news. We aren't selling a whole lot of PM G4's, so to reduce price, we are now upgrading it to a G3 processor @ 350MHz because those ****ing pricks at Moto have their heads up their ***es. Also, we are now including the Rage Pro as standard graphics card, it only has space for one drive, so no more internal zip, and we are wiping out our line of lcd monitors, since everyone bought third party displays anyway. Plus there is no more firewire, only 1 adb port for our recycle old keyboards and mice program. And its now at the low, low price of $3,399. Only one model.
::Several people in crowd start to draw guns, and fire at the stage::
As for the iMac, well, thats our new cheap display. Were going to stop putting in most of the componets including the processor and you can hook it directly to the new G4.
::The rest of the people, except the ones carrying around laptops, start to draw guns and fire at the stage::
Now about the iPod. Since it was priced so high, we are now introducing the iPod LC, @ $35. It includes, among other things:
-A standard cacluator display.
-A serial port (cant be used with any current macs)
-A 550 mb ata hard drive.
-A random, unlabeled assortment of buttons.
-Some kind of euorpean sound port. Did we mention it cant play mp3's anymore?
New marketing slogan: 100 of your favorite songs, now able to fit in your backpack.
For portables, we are upgrading to theG3 processor @ 233MHz. Also, we are recyclying old adb keyboards and mice, as well as 14 inch applevision displays, and including these, so they now all weigh 50 pounds and take up about as much space as the new display (imac). On a side note, the ibook now comes with an lcd watch, since we couldnt get the ****ing pram to work right. Oh well.
Now for airport. No one bought it. Too ****ing expensive. So we are duct taping them to the g4's as a present.
::Crowd cheers::
[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: James Flowers ]</p>
<strong>Here?s the horror MWSF that would truly drive me away for good:
The ?Revolutionary? New LCD iMac:
800 MHz G3
Same old 8x4x24 CDRW
Same old PC100 RAM
16MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
60 Gig HD
15? LCD
$1499 (Fastest; I don?t even want to think about Fast and Faster?)
I start learning Linux.
-mithral</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, good luck with that, pal.
What in the hell kind of iMac are you expecting?!? You're not one of these snapperheads actually thinking the iMac is going to magically jump up to a 17" 1GHz G4 with SuperDrive and a TwinView video card, all for $1099, are you?
Jeez.
There's NOTHING wrong with the specs you listed. As a matter of fact, replace the CD-R drive with a DVD/CD-R combo drive and I'm there!
You sound like a total G4 candidate. But I imagine if they're not up to 2.2GHz come next month, you're not interested, right?
Of course, no one will abandon the Apple platform. Steve will get you all with this evergrowing RDF (Reality Distortion Feild)
-Moazam
[quote]Originally posted by Mithral:
<strong>Here?s the horror MWSF that would truly drive me away for good:
The ?Revolutionary? New LCD iMac:
800 MHz G3
Same old 8x4x24 CDRW
Same old PC100 RAM
16MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
60 Gig HD
15? LCD
$1499 (Fastest; I don?t even want to think about Fast and Faster?)
The All-New PowerMac G4:
1.0 GHz G4 / Dual 933 MHz G4
SuperDrive (whee.)
PC 133 RAM (still)
32MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
80Gig HD / 100 Gig HD (ooh, a 20 Gig boost. Each. Ooh.)
$2499 / $3499 (the low end machine is too dreary to mention)
Photoshop for OSX: Shipping in March!! Or April!!
\t(Actually ships on April 27th , performs so slowly you?d think it was a beta)
Mini-Lecture About the MHz Myth
Ensuing Bakeoff
\tTwelve Photoshop filters that only 3% of the population uses
\t$3500 G4 wipes the floor with a $1500 P4 1.8 GHz (monitor included, probably)
\t
Displays:
\t15? ? same old resolution, $449
\t17? ? 1280x1024 (same), $799
\t19? ? same resolution as 17? , $1399
\t22? ? same resolution, $2399 (?we dropped the price! $100!!)
Oh, and one more thing:
\t?We brought back the Cube. Introducing, the SuperCube2K2!!?
\t
\t800 MHz G4
\tCDRW
\t40 Gig HD
\tPC 133 RAM
\t16 MB nVidia GeForce 2MX
\t$1499
Audience goes nuts.
I start learning Linux.
-mithral</strong><hr></blockquote>
heeeheeee. you funny man.
[quote]To the people who are bitching a moaning about future products being too slow, I urge you to find an 867 MHz or Dual 800 MHz G4, sit down, and try things on it. It's fast. Faster would be nice, but, seriously, what's a 20 second wait compared to a 15 second wait? It's not going to change that drastically, so don't get your hopes up.<hr></blockquote>
Been there done that. Not fast enough. Try an 8-hour render vs. a 2-hour render. Or 20 seconds vs. 10 seconds forty or fifty times over an eight hour day. Dude people actually use these things for work, and a 400mhz jump over two+ years don't cut it anymore. Nor does the lack of DDR--this would help those slow G4 speeds more than anything else.
People [pros] are desperate for decent Apple hardware. If Apple were to release anything resembling a faster G4 watch the flood of upgrades. I try to upgrade business machines every 2 years, but I now have a G4/500 cube, a sort of "sidegrade" from a 9600/350 cause I just couldn't buy a PM tower. When I bought the 9600/350 I went from a 120mhz 601 to a 350mhz 604e. Man that 9600 spun my head it was so freaking fast. Haven't had the same feeling sitting in front of an 867 or a DP800. Still waiting to be impressed.
ps. I'm with mithral on this one
[ 12-09-2001: Message edited by: cowerd ]</p>