iDave - Why then, do Apple offer contextual menus at all?
Ernest, as far as I'm concerned, I don't know. A better answer is that they provide them for those who think they're convenient and helpful. I don't deny that contextual menus can be helpful if you're used to them and that's the way you like to work. Having to use them would be a bummer for folks like me who don't find them that useful. Perhaps I'm stuck in my ways; I would admit to that. I certainly wouldn't object if Apple started making a two-button mouse for those who want to buy one but I don't believe they should, or ever will include one standard with Macs.
Luca, having more contextual menus all over the place might be a good thing. Not being able to do certain things without using them would be bad. The Mac interface is designed so that all of your crucial menus are at the top of the screen, and (most) people like it that way.
You are a tiny minority even among Mac users. In addition to paying extra for a Mac we have to pay extra for a real mouse. One word: craptacular.
The only reason Windows has many and confusing contextual menus is because windows itself has many bewildering options, they are need for a user to know "contextually" where the hell they are! Let's face it, Mac developers are just better. PC ports will always suck if done by PC people. But my hat goes off to Mac devs, even when we all have two button scrollers (come on who else besides iDave doesn't, esp on a desktop), they maintain wysiwyg interfaces. Contextual menus sometimes make sense as a primary interface but usually it's nice to have it as a 2nd or 3rd way of doing something. The quickest way, usually.
Is it really that hard for a user to use a mouse with two more buttons and a wheel? Why isn't it natural? I think you just got used to it. You'll get to used to a better mouse real quick. It made sense in the 1980s but no longer does. Most people cite "you can only have 1 button" when not buying Macs. If they came out with a real mouse I bet a lot of browsers in Apple Stores would on that alone be swayed to buy a Mac instead of walk out. Many people don't know that you can add a real mouse to a Mac. Most users leave their computer as they buy it remember. They do not know what RAM is and they don't know you can buy another mouse for the Mac, they use what it comes with. And so if they do buy they'll berate the mouse when they use it, if they even buy. It is time to move on. How can you support such a radical departure from the norm such as OS X and not support a real Pro Mouse?
Yes a docking bay like Logitech has would have been cool. That is the kind of thing Apple is supposed to do!
The only reason Windows has many and confusing contextual menus is because windows itself has many bewildering options, they are need for a user to know "contextually" where the hell they are! Let's face it, Mac developers are just better. PC ports will always suck if done by PC people. But my hat goes off to Mac devs, even when we all have two button scrollers (come on who else besides iDave doesn't, esp on a desktop), they maintain wysiwyg interfaces. Contextual menus sometimes make sense as a primary interface but usually it's nice to have it as a 2nd or 3rd way of doing something. The quickest way, usually.
Developers are lazy. I know this, because I am one. Good software planning and development methods are even pitched as "intelligent laziness" because following them means doing less work. Cocoa's whole appeal lies in the amount of work it saves you from doing. Now, it's true that there are Mac developers out there who pride themselves in good interface design, and there are Mac developers who sweat out good design because their customers will riot if they don't. There are also (increasingly) Mac ports of PC applications, and these should all be welcome. After all, we've been clamoring for them for years now. The one button mouse, among other things, serves to keep everyone honest - including the influx of PC and UNIX developers that OS X has attracted, but also the Mac developers.
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Is it really that hard for a user to use a mouse with two more buttons and a wheel? Why isn't it natural? I think you just got used to it. You'll get to used to a better mouse real quick.
I use a two-button scroll wheel mouse every weekday (and some weekends) at work. I have used a two-button mouse weekdaily for about 8 years now (it sprouted a scroll wheel a few years ago). I actually have one at home, on my desk, that I bought for Neverwinter Nights, but I've found myself using the Apple mouse and the option (not control *grumble*) key instead. So it sits there. Why? Because it's fussy, uncomfortable, and it feels flimsy and cheap next to the Apple mouse. (It's a Logitech Cordless MouseMan Optical.)
Now, I'd never try to use a one-button mouse with Windows, partly because it's so damn hard to get around efficiently in Windows without leaning heavily on contextual menus. That doesn't mean I miss them when I get home, though, because OS X doesn't require me to context-click all the time just to do basic work with any degree of efficiency. Contextual menus are a nice enhancement that I use from time to time - preferably by click-and-hold, although I use the control key a lot as well (and I could wish for more consistency here, frankly). So it's not at all a matter of what I'm used to, because on my Windows box I don't even think about which button to click - it just happens. (I hardly use the scroll wheel, though, because I can feel the strain on my wrist from crooking a finger that way.) But although I've adapted, I still prefer the Apple way. It's more elegant, more intuitive, and much more comfortable.
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Most people cite "you can only have 1 button" when not buying Macs.
Funny, I haven't heard that once. Most of the people I talk to still don't know that Macs can run Word, or browse the Web. Must be an age thing.
At any rate, it's simply false. You can have as many buttons as you want, and I daresay that adding a new mouse to OS X is much simpler than adding one to Windows. I just plugged in the Logitech, and everything worked right then and there.
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If they came out with a real mouse I bet a lot of browsers in Apple Stores would on that alone be swayed to buy a Mac instead of walk out.
Considering that Apple offers a pretty good selection of Windows and UNIX mice and other more exotic rodents at their online store, I think the problem lies in correcting the misconception that you're stuck with the one button mouse, and more fundamentally the misconception that it's a disadvantage. It would be on Windows, sure, but OS X isn't Windows. If you're switching, it's probably in search of something simpler, right?
...come on who else besides iDave doesn't [have a two-button mouse] esp on a desktop?...
I wish I could somehow get real statistics on that because I tend to disagree. I believe the two-button folks are simply a VERY VOCAL minority (among Mac users). Of course, PowerBook and iBook users have only one button, unless they choose to work at a desk, with a mouse (which I don't). I know, I know, notebooks should have two buttons too, right? Wrong.
It is simply more desirable in my opinion to have an interface that works great with only one button. Argue until you're blue in the face and you won't change my mind on that point. Apple including two-button mice with Macs would ruin it, and they know it.
Ha, now I'm thoroughly convinced iDave is a masochist. You mean you only use your trackpad on your computer? Not even a plain one button mouse? Oh man... I'd rather have a Pro Mouse than a many-buttoned trackpad.
Ha, now I'm thoroughly convinced iDave is a masochist. You mean you only use your trackpad on your computer? Not even a plain one button mouse?
When using my PowerBook, I most often use it on my lap, in a comfortable chair or on the couch. It's impossible to use a mouse while doing that. So, I trained myself how to use a trackpad, much like you guys have trained yourselves to use a two-button mouse and contextual menus. "It's really very easy."
I use a one buttoned mouse by choice. I've gone into the reasons on this board many times, but primarily for me it's ergonomics. I suffer from RSI, and a two button mouse aggravates that much more than a one button one.
the one button mouse is perfect for people buying imacs, emacs and maybe ibooks. there should be an option for professional level hardware, but there is. buy 3rd party. of course, i'd rather have a 2 button mouse made by apple, but if they don't want to, i'll spend elsewhere. but i do think there needs to be a scrollwheel in every design. it's just too damn useful at this point not to be included. i can use my arrow keys on my ibook, but when using a desktop it's too much effort to go to my keyboard.
i'm actually kinda depressed i read this thread......
the one button mouse is perfect for people buying imacs, emacs and maybe ibooks. there should be an option for professional level hardware, but there is. buy 3rd party. of course, i'd rather have a 2 button mouse made by apple, but if they don't want to, i'll spend elsewhere. but i do think there needs to be a scrollwheel in every design. it's just too damn useful at this point not to be included. i can use my arrow keys on my ibook, but when using a desktop it's too much effort to go to my keyboard.
why is the 2 button mouse the greatest thing since sliced bread??
some folks prefer trackballs or use tablets...is Apple supposed to make those, too?
Apple makes the right choice and includes the simplest input to do the job that is consistent w/ its laptops...and please, no arguments that you have to "learn" a 2 button mouse like a no button apple...
I thought I'd point out that my wireless mouse's batteries died today. Since my computer was in for service for a week, that means the mouse has about 3 weeks worth of use. Not too good on batteries. Admittedly, I spend a slightly ridiculous amount of time using my computer, so most users should see much better battery life.
I'm definitely going to get some rechargeable batteries, also extras, so I can rotate, and not have my mouse "down" in between.
If you've got an Apple Bluetooth Mouse, you know you can't use rechargable batteries, right...?
Where did you get this information from? It says right in my Apple Wireless Mouse documentation: "Your Apple Wireless Mouse comes with two nonrechargeable AA lithium batteries. (You can also use alkaline or rechargeable AA batteries in the mouse.)"
I haven't tried this, but Apple says I can and they should know. I don't necessarily expect them to last as long between each change as a lithium battery, but since I'd rather not be throwing batteries away every month it is still preferable.
I have two Logitech MX700's, two Microsoft Intelemouse Explorers, a Kensington wireless Studio mouse and a MacAlley mouse, not to mention three Apple Pro Mice but the one I like the best by far is the Apple Bluetooth Mouse.
I like the one button bluetooth mouse as well. I like it for a couple of reasons. One, I know it is going to work when I turn on bluetooth and put batteries in the mouse (no driver to install) and two, I do like the feel of clicking the whole mouse with one, or multiple finger tips instead of using one finger on a two-button mouse. Call me a whimp, but with a two button mouse my finger gets tired (mostly from repeatedly clicking from trying to kill someone in Unreal Tournament)
I haven't tried this, but Apple says I can and they should know. I don't necessarily expect them to last as long between each change as a lithium battery, but since I'd rather not be throwing batteries away every month it is still preferable.[/B]
Okay, I got some rechargeable batteries. They definitely work. Unfortunately they (NIMH) are quite a bit heavier than the Lithium nonrechargeable batteries. It's not a big deal, but I didn't notice the weight of the mouse before, and now I do.
What hacks me off (and I rarely whine...check my history), is that the bluetooth adapter that apple has been shoving down my throat (and that I bought for my Nokia phone) for over a year doesn't work with the mouse and keyboard. Nice. Thanks. I know there are probably valid technical reasons but dang...
Jason
That is valid, Why doesn't bluetooth work with bluetooth? It would be cool if it WOULD work with your nokia phone, if it doesn't, then bluetooth isn't very adaptable and therefore sucks.
I'd throw out this version, good try, but if it can't work with other devices of it's kind, then suck to that. It would be like a firewire hard drive not working with the connector on the side of the computer...it just isn't a good idea.
Comments
Originally posted by Ernest eMac
iDave - Why then, do Apple offer contextual menus at all?
Ernest, as far as I'm concerned, I don't know. A better answer is that they provide them for those who think they're convenient and helpful. I don't deny that contextual menus can be helpful if you're used to them and that's the way you like to work. Having to use them would be a bummer for folks like me who don't find them that useful. Perhaps I'm stuck in my ways; I would admit to that. I certainly wouldn't object if Apple started making a two-button mouse for those who want to buy one but I don't believe they should, or ever will include one standard with Macs.
Luca, having more contextual menus all over the place might be a good thing. Not being able to do certain things without using them would be bad. The Mac interface is designed so that all of your crucial menus are at the top of the screen, and (most) people like it that way.
Not me. Not mine.
You are a tiny minority even among Mac users. In addition to paying extra for a Mac we have to pay extra for a real mouse. One word: craptacular.
The only reason Windows has many and confusing contextual menus is because windows itself has many bewildering options, they are need for a user to know "contextually" where the hell they are! Let's face it, Mac developers are just better. PC ports will always suck if done by PC people. But my hat goes off to Mac devs, even when we all have two button scrollers (come on who else besides iDave doesn't, esp on a desktop), they maintain wysiwyg interfaces. Contextual menus sometimes make sense as a primary interface but usually it's nice to have it as a 2nd or 3rd way of doing something. The quickest way, usually.
Is it really that hard for a user to use a mouse with two more buttons and a wheel? Why isn't it natural? I think you just got used to it. You'll get to used to a better mouse real quick. It made sense in the 1980s but no longer does. Most people cite "you can only have 1 button" when not buying Macs. If they came out with a real mouse I bet a lot of browsers in Apple Stores would on that alone be swayed to buy a Mac instead of walk out. Many people don't know that you can add a real mouse to a Mac. Most users leave their computer as they buy it remember. They do not know what RAM is and they don't know you can buy another mouse for the Mac, they use what it comes with. And so if they do buy they'll berate the mouse when they use it, if they even buy. It is time to move on. How can you support such a radical departure from the norm such as OS X and not support a real Pro Mouse?
Yes a docking bay like Logitech has would have been cool. That is the kind of thing Apple is supposed to do!
Originally posted by Aquatic
The only reason Windows has many and confusing contextual menus is because windows itself has many bewildering options, they are need for a user to know "contextually" where the hell they are! Let's face it, Mac developers are just better. PC ports will always suck if done by PC people. But my hat goes off to Mac devs, even when we all have two button scrollers (come on who else besides iDave doesn't, esp on a desktop), they maintain wysiwyg interfaces. Contextual menus sometimes make sense as a primary interface but usually it's nice to have it as a 2nd or 3rd way of doing something. The quickest way, usually.
Developers are lazy. I know this, because I am one.
Is it really that hard for a user to use a mouse with two more buttons and a wheel? Why isn't it natural? I think you just got used to it. You'll get to used to a better mouse real quick.
I use a two-button scroll wheel mouse every weekday (and some weekends) at work. I have used a two-button mouse weekdaily for about 8 years now (it sprouted a scroll wheel a few years ago). I actually have one at home, on my desk, that I bought for Neverwinter Nights, but I've found myself using the Apple mouse and the option (not control *grumble*) key instead. So it sits there. Why? Because it's fussy, uncomfortable, and it feels flimsy and cheap next to the Apple mouse. (It's a Logitech Cordless MouseMan Optical.)
Now, I'd never try to use a one-button mouse with Windows, partly because it's so damn hard to get around efficiently in Windows without leaning heavily on contextual menus. That doesn't mean I miss them when I get home, though, because OS X doesn't require me to context-click all the time just to do basic work with any degree of efficiency. Contextual menus are a nice enhancement that I use from time to time - preferably by click-and-hold, although I use the control key a lot as well (and I could wish for more consistency here, frankly). So it's not at all a matter of what I'm used to, because on my Windows box I don't even think about which button to click - it just happens. (I hardly use the scroll wheel, though, because I can feel the strain on my wrist from crooking a finger that way.) But although I've adapted, I still prefer the Apple way. It's more elegant, more intuitive, and much more comfortable.
Most people cite "you can only have 1 button" when not buying Macs.
Funny, I haven't heard that once. Most of the people I talk to still don't know that Macs can run Word, or browse the Web. Must be an age thing.
At any rate, it's simply false. You can have as many buttons as you want, and I daresay that adding a new mouse to OS X is much simpler than adding one to Windows. I just plugged in the Logitech, and everything worked right then and there.
If they came out with a real mouse I bet a lot of browsers in Apple Stores would on that alone be swayed to buy a Mac instead of walk out.
Considering that Apple offers a pretty good selection of Windows and UNIX mice and other more exotic rodents at their online store, I think the problem lies in correcting the misconception that you're stuck with the one button mouse, and more fundamentally the misconception that it's a disadvantage. It would be on Windows, sure, but OS X isn't Windows. If you're switching, it's probably in search of something simpler, right?
Originally posted by Aquatic
You are a tiny minority even among Mac users.
...come on who else besides iDave doesn't [have a two-button mouse] esp on a desktop?...
I wish I could somehow get real statistics on that because I tend to disagree. I believe the two-button folks are simply a VERY VOCAL minority (among Mac users). Of course, PowerBook and iBook users have only one button, unless they choose to work at a desk, with a mouse (which I don't). I know, I know, notebooks should have two buttons too, right? Wrong.
It is simply more desirable in my opinion to have an interface that works great with only one button. Argue until you're blue in the face and you won't change my mind on that point. Apple including two-button mice with Macs would ruin it, and they know it.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
Ha, now I'm thoroughly convinced iDave is a masochist. You mean you only use your trackpad on your computer? Not even a plain one button mouse?
When using my PowerBook, I most often use it on my lap, in a comfortable chair or on the couch. It's impossible to use a mouse while doing that. So, I trained myself how to use a trackpad, much like you guys have trained yourselves to use a two-button mouse and contextual menus. "It's really very easy."
Amorya
i'm actually kinda depressed i read this thread......
Originally posted by voodoodle
the one button mouse is perfect for people buying imacs, emacs and maybe ibooks. there should be an option for professional level hardware, but there is. buy 3rd party. of course, i'd rather have a 2 button mouse made by apple, but if they don't want to, i'll spend elsewhere. but i do think there needs to be a scrollwheel in every design. it's just too damn useful at this point not to be included. i can use my arrow keys on my ibook, but when using a desktop it's too much effort to go to my keyboard.
why is the 2 button mouse the greatest thing since sliced bread??
some folks prefer trackballs or use tablets...is Apple supposed to make those, too?
Apple makes the right choice and includes the simplest input to do the job that is consistent w/ its laptops...and please, no arguments that you have to "learn" a 2 button mouse like a no button apple...
I thought I'd point out that my wireless mouse's batteries died today. Since my computer was in for service for a week, that means the mouse has about 3 weeks worth of use. Not too good on batteries. Admittedly, I spend a slightly ridiculous amount of time using my computer, so most users should see much better battery life.
I'm definitely going to get some rechargeable batteries, also extras, so I can rotate, and not have my mouse "down" in between.
-Spyky
Originally posted by Spyky
I'm definitely going to get some rechargeable batteries, also extras, so I can rotate, and not have my mouse "down" in between.
If you've got an Apple Bluetooth Mouse, you know you can't use rechargable batteries, right...?
Originally posted by SonOfSylvanus
If you've got an Apple Bluetooth Mouse, you know you can't use rechargable batteries, right...?
Where did you get this information from? It says right in my Apple Wireless Mouse documentation: "Your Apple Wireless Mouse comes with two nonrechargeable AA lithium batteries. (You can also use alkaline or rechargeable AA batteries in the mouse.)"
I haven't tried this, but Apple says I can and they should know. I don't necessarily expect them to last as long between each change as a lithium battery, but since I'd rather not be throwing batteries away every month it is still preferable.
-Spyky
I have two Logitech MX700's, two Microsoft Intelemouse Explorers, a Kensington wireless Studio mouse and a MacAlley mouse, not to mention three Apple Pro Mice but the one I like the best by far is the Apple Bluetooth Mouse.
Originally posted by Spyky
I haven't tried this, but Apple says I can and they should know. I don't necessarily expect them to last as long between each change as a lithium battery, but since I'd rather not be throwing batteries away every month it is still preferable.[/B]
Okay, I got some rechargeable batteries. They definitely work. Unfortunately they (NIMH) are quite a bit heavier than the Lithium nonrechargeable batteries. It's not a big deal, but I didn't notice the weight of the mouse before, and now I do.
-Spyky
Originally posted by djbmac
One button...seven button...I don't really care.
What hacks me off (and I rarely whine...check my history), is that the bluetooth adapter that apple has been shoving down my throat (and that I bought for my Nokia phone) for over a year doesn't work with the mouse and keyboard. Nice. Thanks. I know there are probably valid technical reasons but dang...
Jason
That is valid, Why doesn't bluetooth work with bluetooth? It would be cool if it WOULD work with your nokia phone, if it doesn't, then bluetooth isn't very adaptable and therefore sucks.
I'd throw out this version, good try, but if it can't work with other devices of it's kind, then suck to that. It would be like a firewire hard drive not working with the connector on the side of the computer...it just isn't a good idea.
walloo