At this point, I don;t see how anyone can tell me with any intellectual honesty that the Democratic Party at the national level is in anything less than total crisis. Please take that as a mere statement of fact...not an attack. Allow me to summarize:
--They lost Medicare, one of their biggest issues for 40 years.
--They do not control the White House
--They do not control Congress
--They do not control the majorty of Governorships
--They do not control the majority of state legislatures
--They got slaughtered inthe CA Recall. More than 60% votes republican
--Despite all historical precedent, they got creamed in the 2002 mid terms. Bush and Co. accomplised what no one had in 100 years... actually GAINING seats in the house (and Senate) with a same party
President.
--They cannot run on the economy. "We WERE in a recession" isn't
going to fly.
--They will have trouble capatilizing on Iraq problems
--They are going to run a Leftist, anti-war candidate who thinks most
people in the South drive pick ups and display confederate flags.
--They will outspent at least two to one.
--They will kill each other in the primaries.
--Most importantly: Where is the agenda? Where is the alternative plan?
The medicare issue is prime example. The bill may not be great. It may not even be good. But, the party who presented the plan one because they HAD a plan.
If you want to be the most powerful party in the union...spend, spend, spend. And then when a candidate tries to do the same...distort, distort, distort. Claim there's a liberal bias in the media and then create a mega-empire of talk show liars and distortionists. Once you've done that, the country is yours.
And what do the Repub's have to show for it?
Unification? No.
Prosperity? No.
Peace? No.
Jobs? No.
National Security. Not.
H U G E debt? Big yes.
Codification of laws against minorities? Yes.
Handouts to drug companies for seniors that won't kick in for two years so Bush can re-elected? Priceless (big yes).
Power grabs in CA? Yes.
Power grabs in Texas? Yes.
Pointing the finger at 50% of the population and saying they're un-American? Yes.
And given EVERYTHING that Republicans control, why are they still whining and complaining about Democrats like a bunch of bitches? You have the power. What's the problem? Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
Yes, the Democratic party is a mess right now. But, I truly believe that we are in a transitional period within the party. The old-school Democrats (McAuliffe) are doing their fair share of fear-mongering when it comes to Dean. There's a grassroots movement brewing and you can scoff and stick your head in the sand if you want, but I believe it's the real deal and it will single-handedly transform the Democratic party into something new.
At any rate, given the fact the Dems have been outspent and distorted into numerous key losses, aren't Democrats due one? Just the game of odds dictates that the Dems will win one eventually. And it probably will be the big one...the white house.
You claim Democrats don't have a message, or a plan, or ideas. Yet, they're out there in abundance. Dean, Kerry, Gep, et al, have numerous papers, articles and dissertations about what their vision of the future is. The ideas are there. You just choose to ignore them or not look for them (or repeat what you hear from the distortion machines).
Let me get this straight. The economy falls through the f*cking floor, and Bush is now taking credit for 8% growth?
That's like a stock falling from $100 to $1, then going up to $2 and the company bragging that it's stock has increased 100%
Give me a break.
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
Actually, it's more like mortgaging your house to buy a Big Mac.
You two are hilarous. Yes we went from historically low unemployment during a huge dot com balloon to what.. 6.1% unemployment? You two make it sound like a major depression. They had trouble even finding the two consecutive quarters of negative growth to call it a recession.
This is the mildest downturn I have ever witnessed or even read about. I don't mean that in a callous manner for those who have lost something in it. However when measured against other recessions/downturns which occur periodically no matter who is elected, this one has had just about everything possible tossed at it to make it as shallow and short as possible.
If you want to be the most powerful party in the union...spend, spend, spend. And then when a candidate tries to do the same...distort, distort, distort. Claim there's a liberal bias in the media and then create a mega-empire of talk show liars and distortionists. Once you've done that, the country is yours.
And what do the Repub's have to show for it?
Unification? No.
Prosperity? No.
Peace? No.
Jobs? No.
National Security. Not.
H U G E debt? Big yes.
Codification of laws against minorities? Yes.
Handouts to drug companies for seniors that won't kick in for two years so Bush can re-elected? Priceless (big yes).
Power grabs in CA? Yes.
Power grabs in Texas? Yes.
Pointing the finger at 50% of the population and saying they're un-American? Yes.
And given EVERYTHING that Republicans control, why are they still whining and complaining about Democrats like a bunch of bitches? You have the power. What's the problem? Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
Yes, the Democratic party is a mess right now. But, I truly believe that we are in a transitional period within the party. The old-school Democrats (McAuliffe) are doing their fair share of fear-mongering when it comes to Dean. There's a grassroots movement brewing and you can scoff and stick your head in the sand if you want, but I believe it's the real deal and it will single-handedly transform the Democratic party into something new.
At any rate, given the fact the Dems have been outspent and distorted into numerous key losses, aren't Democrats due one? Just the game of odds dictates that the Dems will win one eventually. And it probably will be the big one...the white house.
You claim Democrats don't have a message, or a plan, or ideas. Yet, they're out there in abundance. Dean, Kerry, Gep, et al, have numerous papers, articles and dissertations about what their vision of the future is. The ideas are there. You just choose to ignore them or not look for them (or repeat what you hear from the distortion machines).
Actually in true Democrat fashion, when your party is getting beat in party fund raising, you change the rules and the definitions and just keep playing the game while calling names.
The Democrats are getting killed since they can't raise the soft money they opposed as "corrupting." So of course they create a new group and won't call it a political party. It will spend every single dime on the Democratic Party while being controlled by that party and every single dime will be raised as soft money. Attempts to criticize it are already being portrayed as Republicans attempting to chill free speech/criticism, etc. However it is blatently against the law in every way possible. As usual with the Democrats, if you don't like the rules, just change them.
If you want to be the most powerful party in the union...spend, spend, spend. And then when a candidate tries to do the same...distort, distort, distort. Claim there's a liberal bias in the media and then create a mega-empire of talk show liars and distortionists. Once you've done that, the country is yours.
And what do the Repub's have to show for it?
Unification? No.
Prosperity? No.
Peace? No.
Jobs? No.
National Security. Not.
H U G E debt? Big yes.
Codification of laws against minorities? Yes.
Handouts to drug companies for seniors that won't kick in for two years so Bush can re-elected? Priceless (big yes).
Power grabs in CA? Yes.
Power grabs in Texas? Yes.
Pointing the finger at 50% of the population and saying they're un-American? Yes.
And given EVERYTHING that Republicans control, why are they still whining and complaining about Democrats like a bunch of bitches? You have the power. What's the problem? Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
Yes, the Democratic party is a mess right now. But, I truly believe that we are in a transitional period within the party. The old-school Democrats (McAuliffe) are doing their fair share of fear-mongering when it comes to Dean. There's a grassroots movement brewing and you can scoff and stick your head in the sand if you want, but I believe it's the real deal and it will single-handedly transform the Democratic party into something new.
At any rate, given the fact the Dems have been outspent and distorted into numerous key losses, aren't Democrats due one? Just the game of odds dictates that the Dems will win one eventually. And it probably will be the big one...the white house.
You claim Democrats don't have a message, or a plan, or ideas. Yet, they're out there in abundance. Dean, Kerry, Gep, et al, have numerous papers, articles and dissertations about what their vision of the future is. The ideas are there. You just choose to ignore them or not look for them (or repeat what you hear from the distortion machines).
Yes, yes. The country is a mess. I know. We're less secure and less unified and less rich and less whatever. Bush is Satan and an idiot war monger and all of that...
Now, what are these positions you speak of? Funny, all I seem to hear is "Bush lost...." "Bush invaded..." "Bush, Bush, Bush..."
The public hears nothing but attacks. As for the party, they are going to have to change their positions and get away from the extreme left base. It's the only way.
Yes, yes. The country is a mess. I know. We're less secure and less unified and less rich and less whatever. Bush is Satan and an idiot war monger and all of that...
Who knows...it's an unanswerable question. Was it right to credit Clinton' for presiding over the biggest boom in US history? Conservatives will tell you no way....it was a delayed effect of the Reagan-Bush Sr. years.
I agree with Scott's post (the third one in this thread): for the most part, presidents can only induce short-term action and affect long-term consequences. Combine that person with the always-ignored chicken-coop of the legislature and an incredibly complex system emerges.
Wait 20 years and let economists dispassionately dissect the era we're living in now. Only then will you be able to begin to determine just what exactly it is that's happening RIGHT NOW.
Man, it sounds like the liberals actually want the economy to tank just so Bush will lose. And you wonder why some question your patriotism. The truth is that Democrats used to support tax cuts for economic growth. Kennedy, in fact, spoke quite frequently regarding the positive impact of tax cuts...right before he enacted them. This was before the dems had to pork barrel and wage class wars for votes, of course. Now that the tax cuts are doing their job, we need to cut spending proportionately. But what to cut first?
that's a nice thought, but consider that all of the New deal work, which is more extreme than any other public works I can think of, still didn't exactly end the depression. . . not even after several years.
Not the New Deal but WWII ended the depression. Massive government spending there - far beyond anything the New Deal did. And, of course, government policy helped create the depression in the first place.
Scott IS right but it is also true that this recession should have been much deeper. Trillions were lost in the equity markets and when they started to come back several financial scandals created a strong headwind... When people look to the Great Depression they usually trace its start to the Black Friday crash of the Dow. It was more complex than that but the evaporation of that much paper wealth certainly was a large factor. And when the Depression ended, it wasn't due solely to the rhythms of the business cycle... Back to today, when the federal government is taking two trillion dollars every year there's no way it's not a big player in the economy. That's a BIG drag. On the plus side, Bush's tax cut couldn't have been timed better and interest rates are still very low. What am I missing? Probably boatloads of data - most of it ephemeral and hard to nail down. Economics is often as much art as science.
Comments
Originally posted by bunge
Why do you claim that you're not partisan? Dishonesty isn't nice.
LOL you think I am partisan?
Fellows
Originally posted by the cool gut
Let me get this straight. The economy falls through the f*cking floor, and Bush is now taking credit for 8% growth?
That's like a stock falling from $100 to $1, then going up to $2 and the company bragging that it's stock has increased 100%
Give me a break.
Except the economy began its descent in March of 2000. Who was President then, I wonder?
Originally posted by the cool gut
Let me get this straight. The economy falls through the f*cking floor, and Bush is now taking credit for 8% growth?
That's like a stock falling from $100 to $1, then going up to $2 and the company bragging that it's stock has increased 100%
Give me a break.
Actually, it's more like mortgaging your house to buy a Big Mac.
At this point, I don;t see how anyone can tell me with any intellectual honesty that the Democratic Party at the national level is in anything less than total crisis. Please take that as a mere statement of fact...not an attack. Allow me to summarize:
--They lost Medicare, one of their biggest issues for 40 years.
--They do not control the White House
--They do not control Congress
--They do not control the majorty of Governorships
--They do not control the majority of state legislatures
--They got slaughtered inthe CA Recall. More than 60% votes republican
--Despite all historical precedent, they got creamed in the 2002 mid terms. Bush and Co. accomplised what no one had in 100 years... actually GAINING seats in the house (and Senate) with a same party
President.
--They cannot run on the economy. "We WERE in a recession" isn't
going to fly.
--They will have trouble capatilizing on Iraq problems
--They are going to run a Leftist, anti-war candidate who thinks most
people in the South drive pick ups and display confederate flags.
--They will outspent at least two to one.
--They will kill each other in the primaries.
--Most importantly: Where is the agenda? Where is the alternative plan?
The medicare issue is prime example. The bill may not be great. It may not even be good. But, the party who presented the plan one because they HAD a plan.
Originally posted by Argento
This coming from you?
That's right, Dario.
Originally posted by SDW2001
They will [be] outspent at least two to one.
That says it all.
If you want to be the most powerful party in the union...spend, spend, spend. And then when a candidate tries to do the same...distort, distort, distort. Claim there's a liberal bias in the media and then create a mega-empire of talk show liars and distortionists. Once you've done that, the country is yours.
And what do the Repub's have to show for it?
Unification? No.
Prosperity? No.
Peace? No.
Jobs? No.
National Security. Not.
H U G E debt? Big yes.
Codification of laws against minorities? Yes.
Handouts to drug companies for seniors that won't kick in for two years so Bush can re-elected? Priceless (big yes).
Power grabs in CA? Yes.
Power grabs in Texas? Yes.
Pointing the finger at 50% of the population and saying they're un-American? Yes.
And given EVERYTHING that Republicans control, why are they still whining and complaining about Democrats like a bunch of bitches? You have the power. What's the problem? Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
Yes, the Democratic party is a mess right now. But, I truly believe that we are in a transitional period within the party. The old-school Democrats (McAuliffe) are doing their fair share of fear-mongering when it comes to Dean. There's a grassroots movement brewing and you can scoff and stick your head in the sand if you want, but I believe it's the real deal and it will single-handedly transform the Democratic party into something new.
At any rate, given the fact the Dems have been outspent and distorted into numerous key losses, aren't Democrats due one? Just the game of odds dictates that the Dems will win one eventually. And it probably will be the big one...the white house.
You claim Democrats don't have a message, or a plan, or ideas. Yet, they're out there in abundance. Dean, Kerry, Gep, et al, have numerous papers, articles and dissertations about what their vision of the future is. The ideas are there. You just choose to ignore them or not look for them (or repeat what you hear from the distortion machines).
Originally posted by Northgate
Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
That one is simple. All the Republicans seem to care about is Iraq and reversing abortion rights.
Originally posted by the cool gut
Let me get this straight. The economy falls through the f*cking floor, and Bush is now taking credit for 8% growth?
That's like a stock falling from $100 to $1, then going up to $2 and the company bragging that it's stock has increased 100%
Give me a break.
Originally posted by Northgate
Actually, it's more like mortgaging your house to buy a Big Mac.
You two are hilarous. Yes we went from historically low unemployment during a huge dot com balloon to what.. 6.1% unemployment? You two make it sound like a major depression. They had trouble even finding the two consecutive quarters of negative growth to call it a recession.
This is the mildest downturn I have ever witnessed or even read about. I don't mean that in a callous manner for those who have lost something in it. However when measured against other recessions/downturns which occur periodically no matter who is elected, this one has had just about everything possible tossed at it to make it as shallow and short as possible.
Nick
Originally posted by Northgate
That says it all.
If you want to be the most powerful party in the union...spend, spend, spend. And then when a candidate tries to do the same...distort, distort, distort. Claim there's a liberal bias in the media and then create a mega-empire of talk show liars and distortionists. Once you've done that, the country is yours.
And what do the Repub's have to show for it?
Unification? No.
Prosperity? No.
Peace? No.
Jobs? No.
National Security. Not.
H U G E debt? Big yes.
Codification of laws against minorities? Yes.
Handouts to drug companies for seniors that won't kick in for two years so Bush can re-elected? Priceless (big yes).
Power grabs in CA? Yes.
Power grabs in Texas? Yes.
Pointing the finger at 50% of the population and saying they're un-American? Yes.
And given EVERYTHING that Republicans control, why are they still whining and complaining about Democrats like a bunch of bitches? You have the power. What's the problem? Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
Yes, the Democratic party is a mess right now. But, I truly believe that we are in a transitional period within the party. The old-school Democrats (McAuliffe) are doing their fair share of fear-mongering when it comes to Dean. There's a grassroots movement brewing and you can scoff and stick your head in the sand if you want, but I believe it's the real deal and it will single-handedly transform the Democratic party into something new.
At any rate, given the fact the Dems have been outspent and distorted into numerous key losses, aren't Democrats due one? Just the game of odds dictates that the Dems will win one eventually. And it probably will be the big one...the white house.
You claim Democrats don't have a message, or a plan, or ideas. Yet, they're out there in abundance. Dean, Kerry, Gep, et al, have numerous papers, articles and dissertations about what their vision of the future is. The ideas are there. You just choose to ignore them or not look for them (or repeat what you hear from the distortion machines).
Actually in true Democrat fashion, when your party is getting beat in party fund raising, you change the rules and the definitions and just keep playing the game while calling names.
Political speech isn't money is it?
The Democrats are getting killed since they can't raise the soft money they opposed as "corrupting." So of course they create a new group and won't call it a political party. It will spend every single dime on the Democratic Party while being controlled by that party and every single dime will be raised as soft money. Attempts to criticize it are already being portrayed as Republicans attempting to chill free speech/criticism, etc. However it is blatently against the law in every way possible. As usual with the Democrats, if you don't like the rules, just change them.
Nick
Originally posted by Northgate
That says it all.
If you want to be the most powerful party in the union...spend, spend, spend. And then when a candidate tries to do the same...distort, distort, distort. Claim there's a liberal bias in the media and then create a mega-empire of talk show liars and distortionists. Once you've done that, the country is yours.
And what do the Repub's have to show for it?
Unification? No.
Prosperity? No.
Peace? No.
Jobs? No.
National Security. Not.
H U G E debt? Big yes.
Codification of laws against minorities? Yes.
Handouts to drug companies for seniors that won't kick in for two years so Bush can re-elected? Priceless (big yes).
Power grabs in CA? Yes.
Power grabs in Texas? Yes.
Pointing the finger at 50% of the population and saying they're un-American? Yes.
And given EVERYTHING that Republicans control, why are they still whining and complaining about Democrats like a bunch of bitches? You have the power. What's the problem? Why's the country in such a f*cking mess?
Yes, the Democratic party is a mess right now. But, I truly believe that we are in a transitional period within the party. The old-school Democrats (McAuliffe) are doing their fair share of fear-mongering when it comes to Dean. There's a grassroots movement brewing and you can scoff and stick your head in the sand if you want, but I believe it's the real deal and it will single-handedly transform the Democratic party into something new.
At any rate, given the fact the Dems have been outspent and distorted into numerous key losses, aren't Democrats due one? Just the game of odds dictates that the Dems will win one eventually. And it probably will be the big one...the white house.
You claim Democrats don't have a message, or a plan, or ideas. Yet, they're out there in abundance. Dean, Kerry, Gep, et al, have numerous papers, articles and dissertations about what their vision of the future is. The ideas are there. You just choose to ignore them or not look for them (or repeat what you hear from the distortion machines).
Yes, yes. The country is a mess. I know. We're less secure and less unified and less rich and less whatever. Bush is Satan and an idiot war monger and all of that...
Now, what are these positions you speak of? Funny, all I seem to hear is "Bush lost...." "Bush invaded..." "Bush, Bush, Bush..."
The public hears nothing but attacks. As for the party, they are going to have to change their positions and get away from the extreme left base. It's the only way.
However, such GDP growth is illusory. If you binge, you will suffer the consquences...sooner or latter.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Yes, yes. The country is a mess. I know. We're less secure and less unified and less rich and less whatever. Bush is Satan and an idiot war monger and all of that...
Calling all strawmen....
Originally posted by bunge
Calling all strawmen....
Well that's pretty much the jist of what he said. Go back and read his preceeding post.
was Bush right?
Who knows...it's an unanswerable question. Was it right to credit Clinton' for presiding over the biggest boom in US history? Conservatives will tell you no way....it was a delayed effect of the Reagan-Bush Sr. years.
Wait 20 years and let economists dispassionately dissect the era we're living in now. Only then will you be able to begin to determine just what exactly it is that's happening RIGHT NOW.
Unless of course THEY are in charge.
Whoever THEY are.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
that's a nice thought, but consider that all of the New deal work, which is more extreme than any other public works I can think of, still didn't exactly end the depression. . . not even after several years.
Not the New Deal but WWII ended the depression. Massive government spending there - far beyond anything the New Deal did. And, of course, government policy helped create the depression in the first place.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Who knows...it's an unanswerable question...
Scott IS right but it is also true that this recession should have been much deeper. Trillions were lost in the equity markets and when they started to come back several financial scandals created a strong headwind... When people look to the Great Depression they usually trace its start to the Black Friday crash of the Dow. It was more complex than that but the evaporation of that much paper wealth certainly was a large factor. And when the Depression ended, it wasn't due solely to the rhythms of the business cycle... Back to today, when the federal government is taking two trillion dollars every year there's no way it's not a big player in the economy. That's a BIG drag. On the plus side, Bush's tax cut couldn't have been timed better and interest rates are still very low. What am I missing? Probably boatloads of data - most of it ephemeral and hard to nail down. Economics is often as much art as science.
Originally posted by Michael Wilkie
Now that the tax cuts are doing their job....
What 'job' are the tax cuts doing? They certainly haven't had a positive effect on the economy. Even SDW will admit that.
Originally posted by bunge
What 'job' are the tax cuts doing? They certainly haven't had a positive effect on the economy. Even SDW will admit that.
Did you not read about the econ growth, GDP growth, and all those other things that haven't had a "Postitive effect on the economy?"