[[[Does Linux even take advantage of vector (altivec) processing? If not why would anyone even think of IBM using it in their own boxes? ]]]
Good point. I brought up that question a few posts back. Not only that, where are the developer tools? who will maintain them? Where are the *mainstream* LINUX apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Office, Lightwave, Maya? Who's gonna go through the trouble of producing them for a completely new platform that has 0% market share right now. And let's say if a company did in fact decide to port their wares to it, a company that chose NOT to port to OS X BECAUSE of installed base or market share would be suspect IMHO. How can you produce a product for Unix or Linux and not be on the #1 Unix -- volume AND GUI (OS X)? So, All signs point to Apple. The apps are out there, AltiVec optimized and quite common -- they are robust and mature (usable) and they are attached to a familiar name. Remember IBM's desktop division is still taking a hammering. coming out with a new desktop platform of their own would be silly in this economy.
<strong>[[[Does Linux even take advantage of vector (altivec) processing? If not why would anyone even think of IBM using it in their own boxes? ]]]
Good point. I brought up that question a few posts back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yellow Dog Linux has been busily integrating AltiVec acceleration into their distro. I haven't checked, but I assume that their work is going right back into the main code tree, Linux being what it is.
If not, IBM has sunk eye-popping amounts of money getting Linux going on hardware that it wouldn't have dreamed of running on a couple of years ago; I can't imagine why they wouldn't cheerfully put a team of engineers to the task of optimizing it for a GPUL if it was part of a larger push, and if the YDL code was unavailable or for some reason undesirable.
[quote]Not only that, where are the developer tools? who will maintain them?<hr></blockquote>
The developer tools are the GNU tools. Same as on other platforms. They're maintained by a mixture of volunteers, enthusiasts, and corporations, Apple & IBM among them.
[quote] Where are the *mainstream* LINUX apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Office, Lightwave, Maya? Who's gonna go through the trouble of producing them for a completely new platform that has 0% market share right now. <hr></blockquote>
Uh, Maya is out for Linux... Both Complete & Unlimited (Only Complete is available on the Mac). Where are you getting 0% market share from? Some estimates of desktop Linux use put it at about the same as Macs...
<strong>Where are the *mainstream* LINUX apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Office, Lightwave, Maya? Who's gonna go through the trouble of producing them for a completely new platform that has 0% market share right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who f'ing cares? IBM services sells boxes for solutions that they deliver. They don't give a shit about any of those apps (maybe AutoCAD and Office, but barely.) If you need Office, you need Windows, and IBM will sell you that. If you need a MCCA, then anything is potentially on the table, and if anything, Windows is a liability at that point, since it doesn't play nice. This is where linux, and Mac OS X to a lesser degree comes in. This is what IBM does. They don't need wares, they make wares.
..and why would they write for 'only 3%' of the market when most people can just as well buy a cheap PC? The economics of it...well...can't make sense, can it?
<hr></blockquote>
Please don't use the word "economics" in such a quote Lemon bon bon. I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.
Economics is about the study of choices people/entities make, and their reasons for it. Not be brain dead people following the leader.
I'm trying hard not to outright say how wrong you are.
Suffice to say, your question to me, is like-
"Why aren't all resturants like Mcdonalds, since they are so big, so efficient and so cheap"
TO which I reply as my old ecco teacher did,
"I don't trust 50cents *beef* "
Back to topic. I really doubt there is any need for 64bit addressing even in high end apps, in terms of consumers. That's the whole reasons we have workstations. They are meant for heavy work and only heavy work.
It's much more likely that no consumer will spend so much time and size of project that would require it.
Thus to us consumers, we don't care. Our current system will keep us happily chucking for a good couple of year. and computer depreiation isn't getting any longer.
nah.. couldn't have to do with this near recession we are going thru?
nah. nor the fact the computers are reaching a certain level of saturation?
nor the fact that today's computer do what most people need (internet, email word proc) so there is no need to upgrade...
nahhhhhh. it can _only_ be because of the price...<cough></strong><hr></blockquote>
Stop being such a tool. It's price, goofy rolleyes or not, PRICE PRICE PRICE!!! None of what you mention is stopping the laptop market from growing, yet Apple's portable sales still fell? Why is that? Apple's market share was shrinking during the booming 80's, it was shrinking during the high flying dot.com 90's, and it's shrinking now. Yeah, it must be that recession <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Try to understand what a recession is and what implications it carries before you go out and swallow every bit of BS Steve Jobs throws out at a keynote. You really expect any CEO not to shift the blame to something/someone else? Recession or not, the pricing and sales performance of macs has been constant. Draw proper conclusions, not RDF fantasies.
Ya know trying to hit below the belt *Lemon bon bon* isn't going to make you sound any more smarter.
Your childish remarks just tells me not to waste my time to say that those cheap things that give people heart attacks goes with your nick too, so bleh~ to you too.
[[[Yellow Dog Linux has been busily integrating AltiVec acceleration into their distro. I haven't checked, but I assume that their work is going right back into the main code tree, Linux being what it is. If not, IBM has sunk eye-popping amounts of money getting Linux going on hardware that it wouldn't have dreamed of running on a couple of years ago; I can't imagine why they wouldn't cheerfully put a team of engineers to the task of optimizing it for a GPUL if it was part of a larger push, and if the YDL code was unavailable or for some reason undesirable. ]]]
You are missing my point. Who are the developers that are embracing "Linux for the desktop"? Forget the fact that Linux was NEVER intended for the masses (i.e., common, everyday users like Joe-six-pack) and forget the DISMAL desktop computer market. What software will people be able to use on this new platform? You're not going to see Office running on Linux. You're not going to see Photoshop running on Linux... No AutoCAD, no Illustrator et. al. But OK, let's run with the ball for a while.... Let's say an app will be written for Linux by some developer, which FLAVOR of Linux will it be compatible with? Who's interface standard will it comply with? Unless Linux comes up with a STANDARD/COMMON UI and falls under a single vendor I don;t think it stands a chance. There hasn't even been a shakedown period to determine *these* simple things yet. What I'm saying is that Linux isn't mature or refined enough for the desktop-masses. And if IBM develops a contender, are they going to custom tailor a system/solution for the desktop masses or does the term "desktop" imply something less broad than the "everyday masses" like aunt Sally?
[[[Uh, Maya is out for Linux... Both Complete & Unlimited (Only Complete is available on the Mac). Where are you getting 0% market share from? Some estimates of desktop Linux use put it at about the same as Macs... ]]]
\t
Uh, that's fine within the "geek" circles. I don't think it will fly for the mainstream, everyday user. and where is the "FOCUS" behind Linux?
As for 0%.... There you go lumping the rest of the ENTIRE Linux base into the mix. Which version of Linux does Maya run on? Does it run on EVERY flavor? I doubt it. So now users will be forced to go through the trouble of picking a flavor that is compliant with whatever application they choose to run. This is something that users shouldn't really have to worry about.
The 0% was referring to IBM's market share with respect to *this* particular platform. It will most likely be a proprietary Linux if anything. And how far along do you suppose OS X will be in another year? All I'm saying is that if you think Apple has a lot of "catch-up" to do in terms of regaining market share, Linux has a lifetimes worth. Remember, what does Linux give you that Mac OS X doesn't already give you? Then ask yourself if that answer is important to the mainstream user-base or better yet, the 95% of the people using Windows.
Matsu:
[[[Stop being such a tool. It's price, goofy rolleyes or not, PRICE PRICE PRICE!!! None of what you mention is stopping the laptop market from growing, yet Apple's portable sales still fell? Why is that? Apple's market share was shrinking during the booming 80's, it was shrinking during the high flying dot.com 90's, and it's shrinking now. Yeah, it must be that recession ]]]
[[[Recession or not, the pricing and sales performance of macs has been constant.]]]
Your hokey math just doesn't add up. Or should I say subtract. Sheesh!
Shouldn't Apple have faded away into nothingness by now (according to your reasoning)? How much longer do you suppose they have left?
I mean this argument is getting tired dude. Let's look at how many PC vendors came after Apple and went down in flames, merged or were acquired before Apple. Apple isn't going anywhere as long as they are selling machines and have focus. Period. Sheesh! I'm still trying to figure out your point. Let me ask you something... Do you use the "cheapest" of everything you come across? If not, then let's end this absurd discussion here. Otherwise, the soup kitchen is passing out Salisbury Steak dinners with a side of corn bread. And the best part is that it's FREE. it doesn't get any cheaper than that. Better hurry before it's all gone. ;-)
so you are saying that a recession has nothing to do with computer purchases?!!!
so you are saying that a person that only needs to do email,word proc, and the internet always needs have the most powerful computer on the planet?!!
take a reality pill. beucase you are living in a joke of a dreamworld.
matsu if you think none of the three items I mentioned in my previous post have __nothing__ to do with lack of growth in the mac(and non mac) computer industry then you are beyond help.
as to responding to you by calling you a name back, I'll pause and let the other members decide who is the "tool". why do i get the feeling it won't be me?
Holy Sh*t Thanks for the link Outsider Look at those prices!!! Do IBM really want a Mac using the same processor as these babies replacement at about half (or less) the price. I realise they have amazing 3D performance but $47000 !!! Ouch! No wonder Apple want to muscle into this arena....
<strong>Holy Sh*t Thanks for the link Outsider Look at those prices!!! Do IBM really want a Mac using the same processor as these babies replacement at about half (or less) the price. I realise they have amazing 3D performance but $47000 !!! Ouch! No wonder Apple want to muscle into this arena.... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Look at the low end. It has a 250MHz 604e (Apple hasn't used this for years) going for over $8800! It's not the technology. It's the fact IBM can get away with charging these amounts. For $8800 they could still sell a POWER4-lite system running at 1.6GHz and make tons of money. I can't see them selling more than a few a week at these prices.
Can people use normal UBB QUOTE code [quote] instead of the stupid [[[[[ this guy said ]]]] stuff? Damn annoying...
if you don't know how to do it, the are links "What is UBB code" when you reply, and fer chrissake there are even buttons for the disabled who can't type a simple [quote]
/OFF TOPIC
PS Kuku and co... personal attacks belong nowhere around here... and if you really must, take it to Fireside Chat
Outsider, If I remember correctly, the Power4-lite / GPUL or whatever is being designed for the desktop. Therefore, it begs the question of "what defines a desktop"? I just don't believe that IBM defines "desktop" as "workstation"
[quote] Look at the low end. It has a 250MHz 604e (Apple hasn't used this for years) going for over $8800! It's not the technology. It's the fact IBM can get away with charging these amounts. For $8800 they could still sell a POWER4-lite system running at 1.6GHz and make tons of money. I can't see them selling more than a few a week at these prices.
<hr></blockquote>
Heheheh yup. It's the Software. I got cussed out for saying Software is more important than hardware but look at most Workstations and you see that the Margins are very nice because these computers are running big software apps. Apple will be there soon now with apps like Shake and whatever is coming down the pipe.
Comments
Good point. I brought up that question a few posts back. Not only that, where are the developer tools? who will maintain them? Where are the *mainstream* LINUX apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Office, Lightwave, Maya? Who's gonna go through the trouble of producing them for a completely new platform that has 0% market share right now. And let's say if a company did in fact decide to port their wares to it, a company that chose NOT to port to OS X BECAUSE of installed base or market share would be suspect IMHO. How can you produce a product for Unix or Linux and not be on the #1 Unix -- volume AND GUI (OS X)? So, All signs point to Apple. The apps are out there, AltiVec optimized and quite common -- they are robust and mature (usable) and they are attached to a familiar name. Remember IBM's desktop division is still taking a hammering. coming out with a new desktop platform of their own would be silly in this economy.
--
Ed M.
<strong>[[[Does Linux even take advantage of vector (altivec) processing? If not why would anyone even think of IBM using it in their own boxes? ]]]
Good point. I brought up that question a few posts back.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yellow Dog Linux has been busily integrating AltiVec acceleration into their distro. I haven't checked, but I assume that their work is going right back into the main code tree, Linux being what it is.
If not, IBM has sunk eye-popping amounts of money getting Linux going on hardware that it wouldn't have dreamed of running on a couple of years ago; I can't imagine why they wouldn't cheerfully put a team of engineers to the task of optimizing it for a GPUL if it was part of a larger push, and if the YDL code was unavailable or for some reason undesirable.
The developer tools are the GNU tools. Same as on other platforms. They're maintained by a mixture of volunteers, enthusiasts, and corporations, Apple & IBM among them.
[quote] Where are the *mainstream* LINUX apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Office, Lightwave, Maya? Who's gonna go through the trouble of producing them for a completely new platform that has 0% market share right now. <hr></blockquote>
Uh, Maya is out for Linux... Both Complete & Unlimited (Only Complete is available on the Mac). Where are you getting 0% market share from? Some estimates of desktop Linux use put it at about the same as Macs...
<strong>Where are the *mainstream* LINUX apps like Photoshop, AutoCAD, Office, Lightwave, Maya? Who's gonna go through the trouble of producing them for a completely new platform that has 0% market share right now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who f'ing cares? IBM services sells boxes for solutions that they deliver. They don't give a shit about any of those apps (maybe AutoCAD and Office, but barely.) If you need Office, you need Windows, and IBM will sell you that. If you need a MCCA, then anything is potentially on the table, and if anything, Windows is a liability at that point, since it doesn't play nice. This is where linux, and Mac OS X to a lesser degree comes in. This is what IBM does. They don't need wares, they make wares.
..and why would they write for 'only 3%' of the market when most people can just as well buy a cheap PC? The economics of it...well...can't make sense, can it?
<hr></blockquote>
Please don't use the word "economics" in such a quote Lemon bon bon. I don't know whether to laugh or cringe.
Economics is about the study of choices people/entities make, and their reasons for it. Not be brain dead people following the leader.
I'm trying hard not to outright say how wrong you are.
Suffice to say, your question to me, is like-
"Why aren't all resturants like Mcdonalds, since they are so big, so efficient and so cheap"
TO which I reply as my old ecco teacher did,
"I don't trust 50cents *beef* "
Back to topic. I really doubt there is any need for 64bit addressing even in high end apps, in terms of consumers. That's the whole reasons we have workstations. They are meant for heavy work and only heavy work.
It's much more likely that no consumer will spend so much time and size of project that would require it.
Thus to us consumers, we don't care. Our current system will keep us happily chucking for a good couple of year. and computer depreiation isn't getting any longer.
~Kuku
[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Kuku ]</p>
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>>price
nah.. couldn't have to do with this near recession we are going thru?
nah. nor the fact the computers are reaching a certain level of saturation?
nor the fact that today's computer do what most people need (internet, email word proc) so there is no need to upgrade...
nahhhhhh. it can _only_ be because of the price...<cough></strong><hr></blockquote>
Stop being such a tool. It's price, goofy rolleyes or not, PRICE PRICE PRICE!!! None of what you mention is stopping the laptop market from growing, yet Apple's portable sales still fell? Why is that? Apple's market share was shrinking during the booming 80's, it was shrinking during the high flying dot.com 90's, and it's shrinking now. Yeah, it must be that recession <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Try to understand what a recession is and what implications it carries before you go out and swallow every bit of BS Steve Jobs throws out at a keynote. You really expect any CEO not to shift the blame to something/someone else? Recession or not, the pricing and sales performance of macs has been constant. Draw proper conclusions, not RDF fantasies.
Your childish remarks just tells me not to waste my time to say that those cheap things that give people heart attacks goes with your nick too, so bleh~ to you too.
~Kuku
[ 09-18-2002: Message edited by: Kuku ]</p>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
This is too funny!
[[[Yellow Dog Linux has been busily integrating AltiVec acceleration into their distro. I haven't checked, but I assume that their work is going right back into the main code tree, Linux being what it is. If not, IBM has sunk eye-popping amounts of money getting Linux going on hardware that it wouldn't have dreamed of running on a couple of years ago; I can't imagine why they wouldn't cheerfully put a team of engineers to the task of optimizing it for a GPUL if it was part of a larger push, and if the YDL code was unavailable or for some reason undesirable. ]]]
You are missing my point. Who are the developers that are embracing "Linux for the desktop"? Forget the fact that Linux was NEVER intended for the masses (i.e., common, everyday users like Joe-six-pack) and forget the DISMAL desktop computer market. What software will people be able to use on this new platform? You're not going to see Office running on Linux. You're not going to see Photoshop running on Linux... No AutoCAD, no Illustrator et. al. But OK, let's run with the ball for a while.... Let's say an app will be written for Linux by some developer, which FLAVOR of Linux will it be compatible with? Who's interface standard will it comply with? Unless Linux comes up with a STANDARD/COMMON UI and falls under a single vendor I don;t think it stands a chance. There hasn't even been a shakedown period to determine *these* simple things yet. What I'm saying is that Linux isn't mature or refined enough for the desktop-masses. And if IBM develops a contender, are they going to custom tailor a system/solution for the desktop masses or does the term "desktop" imply something less broad than the "everyday masses" like aunt Sally?
[[[Uh, Maya is out for Linux... Both Complete & Unlimited (Only Complete is available on the Mac). Where are you getting 0% market share from? Some estimates of desktop Linux use put it at about the same as Macs... ]]]
\t
Uh, that's fine within the "geek" circles. I don't think it will fly for the mainstream, everyday user. and where is the "FOCUS" behind Linux?
As for 0%.... There you go lumping the rest of the ENTIRE Linux base into the mix. Which version of Linux does Maya run on? Does it run on EVERY flavor? I doubt it. So now users will be forced to go through the trouble of picking a flavor that is compliant with whatever application they choose to run. This is something that users shouldn't really have to worry about.
The 0% was referring to IBM's market share with respect to *this* particular platform. It will most likely be a proprietary Linux if anything. And how far along do you suppose OS X will be in another year? All I'm saying is that if you think Apple has a lot of "catch-up" to do in terms of regaining market share, Linux has a lifetimes worth. Remember, what does Linux give you that Mac OS X doesn't already give you? Then ask yourself if that answer is important to the mainstream user-base or better yet, the 95% of the people using Windows.
Matsu:
[[[Stop being such a tool. It's price, goofy rolleyes or not, PRICE PRICE PRICE!!! None of what you mention is stopping the laptop market from growing, yet Apple's portable sales still fell? Why is that? Apple's market share was shrinking during the booming 80's, it was shrinking during the high flying dot.com 90's, and it's shrinking now. Yeah, it must be that recession ]]]
[[[Recession or not, the pricing and sales performance of macs has been constant.]]]
Your hokey math just doesn't add up. Or should I say subtract. Sheesh!
Shouldn't Apple have faded away into nothingness by now (according to your reasoning)? How much longer do you suppose they have left?
I mean this argument is getting tired dude. Let's look at how many PC vendors came after Apple and went down in flames, merged or were acquired before Apple. Apple isn't going anywhere as long as they are selling machines and have focus. Period. Sheesh! I'm still trying to figure out your point. Let me ask you something... Do you use the "cheapest" of everything you come across? If not, then let's end this absurd discussion here. Otherwise, the soup kitchen is passing out Salisbury Steak dinners with a side of corn bread. And the best part is that it's FREE. it doesn't get any cheaper than that. Better hurry before it's all gone. ;-)
--
Ed
That and their lower end servers.
so you are saying that a person that only needs to do email,word proc, and the internet always needs have the most powerful computer on the planet?!!
take a reality pill. beucase you are living in a joke of a dreamworld.
matsu if you think none of the three items I mentioned in my previous post have __nothing__ to do with lack of growth in the mac(and non mac) computer industry then you are beyond help.
as to responding to you by calling you a name back, I'll pause and let the other members decide who is the "tool". why do i get the feeling it won't be me?
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>Holy Sh*t Thanks for the link Outsider Look at those prices!!! Do IBM really want a Mac using the same processor as these babies replacement at about half (or less) the price. I realise they have amazing 3D performance but $47000 !!! Ouch! No wonder Apple want to muscle into this arena....
Look at the low end. It has a 250MHz 604e (Apple hasn't used this for years) going for over $8800! It's not the technology. It's the fact IBM can get away with charging these amounts. For $8800 they could still sell a POWER4-lite system running at 1.6GHz and make tons of money. I can't see them selling more than a few a week at these prices.
Can people use normal UBB QUOTE code [quote] instead of the stupid [[[[[ this guy said ]]]] stuff? Damn annoying...
if you don't know how to do it, the are links "What is UBB code" when you reply, and fer chrissake there are even buttons for the disabled who can't type a simple [quote]
/OFF TOPIC
PS Kuku and co... personal attacks belong nowhere around here... and if you really must, take it to Fireside Chat
--
Ed
<hr></blockquote>
Heheheh yup. It's the Software. I got cussed out for saying Software is more important than hardware but look at most Workstations and you see that the Margins are very nice because these computers are running big software apps. Apple will be there soon now with apps like Shake and whatever is coming down the pipe.