There would be riots in the streets well before that. We'll simply never have an Islamic president.
Why, because Americans are not as tolerant and diverse as you claim? Because alignment to some unproven person belief is more important than capability?
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I never claimed we are tolerant nor diverse. Read, don't presume.
I said I wouldn't care if a Muslim president (as unlikely as it may be) were to finish off with some religious term of good will so long as the majority of his speech wasn't religious.
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And stifling a majority isn't offensive?
who are you stifling, by not uttering the words?
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No....I said that you attempting to silence, restrict, censor a majority is offensive.
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You have the right to say "There is no God, and if there were I doubt he'd bless us anyway" at the ends of your speeches, should you even get into office.
But I wouldn't, because my personal unproven belief has exacly nothing whatsoever to do with how capable I am in running a country
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It's just one person's expression of good wishes for the people he leads. Has nothing to do with running the country. It's a frigging salutation. If anything, it's use becomes desensitizing and it becomes trite making it even less religious...effectively nothing more than "see ya later".
...
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good, i hope we do. But, should we be fighting Radical-Islamists, or terrorism. Not every radical-islamist is a terrorist, and the peaceful one's think were on a crusade
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Then the peaceful ones that think that are wrong and need to drop the cynicism and pick up a non-conspiratorial/tabloid/Radical Islamic newspaper.
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WHATEVER! No, I wouldn't. Are you implying that I am a likely terrorist?
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If you are as anti-religious as you seem, then it is just another radical ideology. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were a hundred like you eventually some statues would be pulled down, references to God chiseled off of monuments etc.
Not terrorism, since I reserve that for grand scale attacks involving loss of life, but certainly thuggish, intimidation. You want people to not be able to express themselves. Even at work or in office expression of personal belief of any kind should be tolerated.
I'll protest a Muslim being silenced.
I'll protest a person like you being silenced
I'll protest a Christian being silenced
I'll protest a (religion x) being silenced.
The onus is on the listener to understand that a person in office does not speak for the entirety of the people being served by that person. That would be impossible. Last I heard, the way democracy works is the majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority. Thus, the winner tends to reflect the attributes of the majority. This doesn't translate into death camps and expulsion of all the other types of people as much as you might like to pretend it does (not in America anyway). I'd turn the cynicism onto Europe first if I were you. Seems to me every few decades there is a genocide there.
I nearly started a thread on this a little while ago, but I figured it my be considered too 'baity' but basically, my question was "can you support a war(any war) and be Christian?"
Seeing GWB use god and christianity so much particularly when talking about the war on terror, saddens me greatly, how un-christian of him.
Slightly off topic, It doesn't suprise me. In my working life, I have met two evangilistic Christians. I forget which Brand the first one was, he was our system IT man. He lied, deceived, held the company to randsom, ran up huge company bills, downloaded porn on the system by coming back to work after everyone had gone home, and finally, ordered a new computer to be our server, of which over 75% of the order was actually for his own home computer. Then I shopped him and he was fired!
This was while telling me I was a sinner and I could go to hell if I didn't change my ways.
My immediate boss, at my present company, is of the Creationist 'strain' of Christianity. He likes to tell me how hes been saved, because he has let the lord into his life, he tells me I am blinded, deceived by satan. He has told me Satan put fossils into the ground to fool us into thinking the Earth is more than 3000 years old. He likes to tell me how evolution can only produce mutations of death. So what' is he like?
He lies, deceives, stitches up co-workers, is extremely lazy, holds the company to randsom if he doesn't get his own way, creates situations which only he can save, whilst making someone else look stupid, goes home, or shopping when his boss is away, etc...etc
I got him good lately. He was sent out to view some software the boss is thinking of buying. The meeting was to end at 12.30 thereabouts. The trip was <50 miles back. He got back to the office at 4.55pm, just in time to go home. When he got in we had this cock and bull story about how there was this big accident like 30 miles away and the army were out to clear up the mess. However it had seriously started snowing at 3oclock, by 4.30, there was 4" of snow on my car. Strangely there was exactly 4" of snow on his car too when he turned up.
As I left, I just said "Funny snow these days, even sticks to your car when doing 60!". There was like this 5 seconds of eery silence, then everyone knew he has been sitting at home since at least 3pm.
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
If you are talking about when people sign off at the end of speeches, I'm for the speaker saying whatever personal thing they want to . If it happens to be a Christian that wants to say God bless America etc. so what, because the implicit freedom is that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, whatever, can say whatever they want at the end of their speeches.
It's a little something called tact. When millions of people perceive us as executing a religious war it's probably not a good idea to sign off with god bless america. It is no different than Praise Allah may he protect Iraq.
I never claimed we are tolerant nor diverse. Read, don't presume.
I said I wouldn't care if a Muslim president (as unlikely as it may be) were to finish off with some religious term of good will so long as the majority of his speech wasn't religious.
Good, but why does any of the speech need to be religious? In your opinion - why, if in 'fantasy America', if the most competent politician happened to be Muslim running for the 'big job' would stand little chance?, In your opinion, where would you draw the line between too much religious talk in a speech. Is it acceptable to say 'God bless America' + 1 other religious statement. 2,3,4 others?
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And stifling a majority isn't offensive?
who are you stifling, by not uttering the words?
--
No....I said that you attempting to silence, restrict, censor a majority is offensive.
Is not that the president is standing there thinking, I would like to say 'God Bless America' but it might piss off a minority but Why is he wanting to say that, when it has no relevance to his speech.
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You have the right to say "There is no God, and if there were I doubt he'd bless us anyway" at the ends of your speeches, should you even get into office.
But I wouldn't, because my personal unproven belief has exacly nothing whatsoever to do with how capable I am in running a country
--
It's just one person's expression of good wishes for the people he leads. Has nothing to do with running the country. It's a frigging salutation. If anything, it's use becomes desensitizing and it becomes trite making it even less religious...effectively nothing more than "see ya later".
...
so it actually means jack?
a) why bother then
b) does it encompass everyone he leads, or just a select few?
c) Is it not really a subtle psychological trick to say ' Yeah Im one of you, im in your club, therefore you can trust me, Im doing it for you. Run with me"
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good, i hope we do. But, should we be fighting Radical-Islamists, or terrorism. Not every radical-islamist is a terrorist, and the peaceful one's think were on a crusade
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Then the peaceful ones that think that are wrong and need to drop the cynicism and pick up a non-conspiratorial/tabloid/Radical Islamic newspaper.
a) like they have access.
b) so in your opinion, radicalism is wrong, even if peaceful? Not as tolerant as you claim perhaps?
If you are as anti-religious as you seem, then it is just another radical ideology. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were a hundred like you eventually some statues would be pulled down, references to God chiseled off of monuments etc.
I am pretty anti-religious across the board granted, certainly I used to be more vocal in the distant past. But I've learned a few things since then, and constantly consider my world view. I cant speak for the other 99 of me, but I would not be going around doing these things, nor would I, if I was in the position, devote any money to restore these things when they fell down through natural decay, unless someone could argue that it must be preserved for the good of humanity. IMO, religion has had its place, while I could be persuaded religion has actually helped humanity (for the wrong reasons), I think its about time people (as in the whole world) saw it for what it is. It really has lived past its shelf-life. Its is now more destructive, than it is good, and as IMO, it is based upon falsehoods, we should put it to rest. It certainly should not be used by politicians to further their own agenda. You really seem to jump to some a pretty nasty conclusions about me. I guess Im like 99% of the people on this board in 99% of the way.
Not terrorism, since I reserve that for grand scale attacks involving loss of life, but certainly thuggish, intimidation. You want people to not be able to express themselves. Even at work or in office expression of personal belief of any kind should be tolerated.
so im a thuggish, intimidator, i'll let that pass, I let many people express more to me than I wish to hear, I dont respond in any other way than gracefully, usually. But I think it is important that some people (ie you prez, or my Tony Blair) realise that they are in a very responsible position, and should act accordingly. They were put there to do a very important job, so I do not want them to add their own trite, especially if they cannot prove it.
I'll protest a Muslim being silenced.
I'll protest a person like you being silenced
I'll protest a Christian being silenced
I'll protest a (religion x) being silenced.
so would I, but certain people need to address the world in the proper context of their position. World leaders, can be whatever religion they want for all I care, but when carrying out official duty, they behaviour must reflect their responsibility.
The onus is on the listener to understand that a person in office does not speak for the entirety of the people being served by that person. That would be impossible. Last I heard, the way democracy works is the majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority.
According to Gore, thats not quite how it works in your country though. Though don't get me wrong, I couldn't give a toss who your prez is.
Thus, the winner tends to reflect the attributes of the majority. This doesn't translate into death camps and expulsion of all the other types of people as much as you might like to pretend it does
Thats quite an assumption!
I'd turn the cynicism onto Europe first if I were you. Seems to me every few decades there is a genocide there.
Cheap shot. But, is most of this not due to the fact that one set of people driven by an fear ridden figurehead are duped into believing that such a person is such an immediate threat that they must be eliminated at all cost. Gees, I see a few parallels here!
Slightly off topic, It doesn't suprise me. In my working life, I have met two evangilistic Christians. I forget which Brand the first one was, he was our system IT man. He lied, deceived, held the company to randsom, ran up huge company bills, downloaded porn on the system by coming back to work after everyone had gone home, and finally, ordered a new computer to be our server, of which over 75% of the order was actually for his own home computer. Then I shopped him and he was fired!
This was while telling me I was a sinner and I could go to hell if I didn't change my ways.
My immediate boss, at my present company, is of the Creationist 'strain' of Christianity. He likes to tell me how hes been saved, because he has let the lord into his life, he tells me I am blinded, deceived by satan. He has told me Satan put fossils into the ground to fool us into thinking the Earth is more than 3000 years old. He likes to tell me how evolution can only produce mutations of death. So what' is he like?
He lies, deceives, stitches up co-workers, is extremely lazy, holds the company to randsom if he doesn't get his own way, creates situations which only he can save, whilst making someone else look stupid, goes home, or shopping when his boss is away, etc...etc
I got him good lately. He was sent out to view some software the boss is thinking of buying. The meeting was to end at 12.30 thereabouts. The trip was <50 miles back. He got back to the office at 4.55pm, just in time to go home. When he got in we had this cock and bull story about how there was this big accident like 30 miles away and the army were out to clear up the mess. However it had seriously started snowing at 3oclock, by 4.30, there was 4" of snow on my car. Strangely there was exactly 4" of snow on his car too when he turned up.
As I left, I just said "Funny snow these days, even sticks to your car when doing 60!". There was like this 5 seconds of eery silence, then everyone knew he has been sitting at home since at least 3pm.
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
You know,,, I know this Black person,,,, you know,,,, and he is really different than us white folk.....
He is really lazy, and he lies,
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Black people?
MarkUK you need to learn not to fall into a trap of bigotry.
I might get flamed for this, but I wonder to myself, what would happen if we spent $100 billion being genuinely nice, friendly and understanding. It seems most of the large terrorist threats come from impoverished countries, where a few with the $, can lead a whole army of uneducated idealistic peasants. If they had homes, jobs, education, prospects, responsibilities, commitments, would they feel the need to blow the shit out of us?
JOHNQ...
Im quoting myself from much earlier, before I got into this discussion,
Unfortunately I don't have much time but in regard to the giving lots of humanitarian support, this I think is a more worthy topic for discussion in the context of this particular thread. Ideologies do not just spring forth as if from nowhere. They are a direct product of the social, economic, cultural conditions of the societies that engender them.
A good example is the rise of Nazism. Every historian knows that this was directly related to the harsh peace treaty imposed on Germany at the end of WW1.
It's pretty simple really. Look at where democracy and respect for personal freedoms thrives. Look at where tyranny and terrorism thrive. Notice a pattern? If this was science, it would be regarded as extremely statistically significant.
Hope that makes some sense. I just don't have the time right now to argue it more cogently.
You know,,, I know this Black person,,,, you know,,,, and he is really different than us white folk.....
He is really lazy, and he lies,
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Black people?
MarkUK you need to learn not to fall into a trap of bigotry.
I am very serious.
Fellowship
Thankyou for bringing black people into it. let it be remembered that that was your imagination entirely, and nothing to do with me.
It is pretty obvious to me that there is something fundamentally wrong with how these two guys i know are interpretting the teachings of the Bible. Now I live in a small community in prosperous UK averageville. I really don't want to know what kind of shite is practised in the name of Christianity in more deprived, less tolerant, extremist areas.
There IS something fundamentally wrong with the practising of much of Christianity today(and all religions). I actually had a christian upbringing, and I know, most of what I see in the name of Christianity not what was taught to me by my parents.
I am perfectly capable of realising that there are still some good Christians, of which I am proud not to be one.
[edit] to add that most of my best friends were christians at school and they did not behave like this. Or maybe thats how they behave when they became adults.
I think the point I am trying to make, is that so many people use their Christianity as an automatic, "Hey trust me I go to Church" that it is sensible to regard anyone who uses this approach as less trustworthy than average. I think thats in context to a large proportion of this thread.
I dont (or didn't) mean to offend anyone, but I doubt that you can seriously argue about the conclusion I have made.
I think the point I am trying to make, is that so many people use their Christianity as an automatic, "Hey trust me I go to Church" that it is sensible to regard anyone who uses this approach as less trustworthy than average. I think thats in context to a large proportion of this thread.
I dont (or didn't) mean to offend anyone, but I doubt that you can seriously argue about the conclusion I have made.
You are welcome to generalize all you wish. Don't let me get in the way.
MarkUK I have admired you over the years here at AI. I truly have. You have been very balanced in the past here at AO / Fireside.
As of late I just hate to see you relegate all Christians as a certain thing because you bring up two examples of flawed so-called Christians.
I do not see why you feel it to be of importance because while in the process of gossip about your "Christian" co-workers in your circle of influence you seem to glow with a sort of "Yeah those are Christians for ya" kind of attitude.
You yourself said: Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
I just think it is sad to jump on any bandwagen as to paint any set of believers of a given religion as any one bigoted assessment.
Ya know, it's not entirely fair to simply replace christian with black person. Christianity is a set of rules and guidelines for your life, being black is just the way you look. You can't look christian, just as you can't live your life by the guidelines set out by black.
My gripe with 'christians' is when they support violence and killing, things that jesus would never support, and they use his name in justification for it. Obviously not ALL christians do this, I never said they did, but I come across more that do every single day.
MarkUK I have admired you over the years here at AI. I truly have. You have been very balanced in the past here at AO / Fireside.
As of late I just hate to see you relegate all Christians as a certain thing because you bring up two examples of flawed so-called Christians.
I do not see why you feel it to be of importance because while in the process of gossip about your "Christian" co-workers in your circle of influence you seem to glow with a sort of "Yeah those are Christians for ya" kind of attitude.
You yourself said: Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
I just think it is sad to jump on any bandwagen as to paint any set of believers of a given religion as any one bigoted assessment.
fellows
But isn't it true?
we have Christians on TV, on the radio, in newspapers, magazines, more disturbingly - leading the country, in the military, in large corporate business, in small business, in 2 of my last employments, every town, every country.
and they're all talking shit. Lies, deceit, spin, greed, corruption, etc etc
I don't believe that they are behaving in accordance with the teachings of the Bible, yet people hang on every world they say because they assume that they must be good because they go to church. Yet in reality, they are no better than mr average. IMO it makes them worse, because they hide behind the veil of rightousness.
I dont believe it is so hard to make a general statement - about a large proportion of so called Christians. I know, I really really do, that they are not all like that. Im not trying to attack you personally - I think I did that a couple of years ago. But I learned, and thanks to you I changed my worldview.
[edit] y'know, my 2 experiences, are relavent, because as I said before, I live almost in the middle of nowhere, a small community in the middle of prosperous agricultural southwest UK, and these types are turning up here also. Its like this place never ever, ever changes, but they're here also damnit.
I just wanted to make sure you were not labeling all Christians as any one thing in a bigoted manner. That was my only purpose in addressing your posts MarkUK.
I just wanted to make sure you were not labeling all Christians as any one thing in a bigoted manner. That was my only purpose in addressing your posts MarkUK.
fellows
just like you made sure that johnQ wasn't biggotting me personally (and every non-believer, all 99 of them!) as a terrorist, thug, intimidator, intolerant, asshole.? Eh?
Comments
There would be riots in the streets well before that. We'll simply never have an Islamic president.
Why, because Americans are not as tolerant and diverse as you claim? Because alignment to some unproven person belief is more important than capability?
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I never claimed we are tolerant nor diverse. Read, don't presume.
I said I wouldn't care if a Muslim president (as unlikely as it may be) were to finish off with some religious term of good will so long as the majority of his speech wasn't religious.
--
And stifling a majority isn't offensive?
who are you stifling, by not uttering the words?
--
No....I said that you attempting to silence, restrict, censor a majority is offensive.
--
You have the right to say "There is no God, and if there were I doubt he'd bless us anyway" at the ends of your speeches, should you even get into office.
But I wouldn't, because my personal unproven belief has exacly nothing whatsoever to do with how capable I am in running a country
--
It's just one person's expression of good wishes for the people he leads. Has nothing to do with running the country. It's a frigging salutation. If anything, it's use becomes desensitizing and it becomes trite making it even less religious...effectively nothing more than "see ya later".
...
--
good, i hope we do. But, should we be fighting Radical-Islamists, or terrorism. Not every radical-islamist is a terrorist, and the peaceful one's think were on a crusade
--
Then the peaceful ones that think that are wrong and need to drop the cynicism and pick up a non-conspiratorial/tabloid/Radical Islamic newspaper.
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WHATEVER! No, I wouldn't. Are you implying that I am a likely terrorist?
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If you are as anti-religious as you seem, then it is just another radical ideology. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were a hundred like you eventually some statues would be pulled down, references to God chiseled off of monuments etc.
Not terrorism, since I reserve that for grand scale attacks involving loss of life, but certainly thuggish, intimidation. You want people to not be able to express themselves. Even at work or in office expression of personal belief of any kind should be tolerated.
I'll protest a Muslim being silenced.
I'll protest a person like you being silenced
I'll protest a Christian being silenced
I'll protest a (religion x) being silenced.
The onus is on the listener to understand that a person in office does not speak for the entirety of the people being served by that person. That would be impossible. Last I heard, the way democracy works is the majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority. Thus, the winner tends to reflect the attributes of the majority. This doesn't translate into death camps and expulsion of all the other types of people as much as you might like to pretend it does (not in America anyway). I'd turn the cynicism onto Europe first if I were you. Seems to me every few decades there is a genocide there.
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
I nearly started a thread on this a little while ago, but I figured it my be considered too 'baity' but basically, my question was "can you support a war(any war) and be Christian?"
Seeing GWB use god and christianity so much particularly when talking about the war on terror, saddens me greatly, how un-christian of him.
Slightly off topic, It doesn't suprise me. In my working life, I have met two evangilistic Christians. I forget which Brand the first one was, he was our system IT man. He lied, deceived, held the company to randsom, ran up huge company bills, downloaded porn on the system by coming back to work after everyone had gone home, and finally, ordered a new computer to be our server, of which over 75% of the order was actually for his own home computer. Then I shopped him and he was fired!
This was while telling me I was a sinner and I could go to hell if I didn't change my ways.
My immediate boss, at my present company, is of the Creationist 'strain' of Christianity. He likes to tell me how hes been saved, because he has let the lord into his life, he tells me I am blinded, deceived by satan. He has told me Satan put fossils into the ground to fool us into thinking the Earth is more than 3000 years old. He likes to tell me how evolution can only produce mutations of death. So what' is he like?
He lies, deceives, stitches up co-workers, is extremely lazy, holds the company to randsom if he doesn't get his own way, creates situations which only he can save, whilst making someone else look stupid, goes home, or shopping when his boss is away, etc...etc
I got him good lately. He was sent out to view some software the boss is thinking of buying. The meeting was to end at 12.30 thereabouts. The trip was <50 miles back. He got back to the office at 4.55pm, just in time to go home. When he got in we had this cock and bull story about how there was this big accident like 30 miles away and the army were out to clear up the mess. However it had seriously started snowing at 3oclock, by 4.30, there was 4" of snow on my car. Strangely there was exactly 4" of snow on his car too when he turned up.
As I left, I just said "Funny snow these days, even sticks to your car when doing 60!". There was like this 5 seconds of eery silence, then everyone knew he has been sitting at home since at least 3pm.
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
Originally posted by johnq
If you are talking about when people sign off at the end of speeches, I'm for the speaker saying whatever personal thing they want to . If it happens to be a Christian that wants to say God bless America etc. so what, because the implicit freedom is that a Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, whatever, can say whatever they want at the end of their speeches.
It's a little something called tact. When millions of people perceive us as executing a religious war it's probably not a good idea to sign off with god bless america. It is no different than Praise Allah may he protect Iraq.
There is something fundamentally wrong with today's humans, period.
There are good and bad people in all societies, all religions.
I never claimed we are tolerant nor diverse. Read, don't presume.
I said I wouldn't care if a Muslim president (as unlikely as it may be) were to finish off with some religious term of good will so long as the majority of his speech wasn't religious.
Good, but why does any of the speech need to be religious? In your opinion - why, if in 'fantasy America', if the most competent politician happened to be Muslim running for the 'big job' would stand little chance?, In your opinion, where would you draw the line between too much religious talk in a speech. Is it acceptable to say 'God bless America' + 1 other religious statement. 2,3,4 others?
--
And stifling a majority isn't offensive?
who are you stifling, by not uttering the words?
--
No....I said that you attempting to silence, restrict, censor a majority is offensive.
Is not that the president is standing there thinking, I would like to say 'God Bless America' but it might piss off a minority but Why is he wanting to say that, when it has no relevance to his speech.
--
You have the right to say "There is no God, and if there were I doubt he'd bless us anyway" at the ends of your speeches, should you even get into office.
But I wouldn't, because my personal unproven belief has exacly nothing whatsoever to do with how capable I am in running a country
--
It's just one person's expression of good wishes for the people he leads. Has nothing to do with running the country. It's a frigging salutation. If anything, it's use becomes desensitizing and it becomes trite making it even less religious...effectively nothing more than "see ya later".
...
so it actually means jack?
a) why bother then
b) does it encompass everyone he leads, or just a select few?
c) Is it not really a subtle psychological trick to say ' Yeah Im one of you, im in your club, therefore you can trust me, Im doing it for you. Run with me"
--
good, i hope we do. But, should we be fighting Radical-Islamists, or terrorism. Not every radical-islamist is a terrorist, and the peaceful one's think were on a crusade
--
Then the peaceful ones that think that are wrong and need to drop the cynicism and pick up a non-conspiratorial/tabloid/Radical Islamic newspaper.
a) like they have access.
b) so in your opinion, radicalism is wrong, even if peaceful? Not as tolerant as you claim perhaps?
If you are as anti-religious as you seem, then it is just another radical ideology. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were a hundred like you eventually some statues would be pulled down, references to God chiseled off of monuments etc.
I am pretty anti-religious across the board granted, certainly I used to be more vocal in the distant past. But I've learned a few things since then, and constantly consider my world view. I cant speak for the other 99 of me, but I would not be going around doing these things, nor would I, if I was in the position, devote any money to restore these things when they fell down through natural decay, unless someone could argue that it must be preserved for the good of humanity. IMO, religion has had its place, while I could be persuaded religion has actually helped humanity (for the wrong reasons), I think its about time people (as in the whole world) saw it for what it is. It really has lived past its shelf-life. Its is now more destructive, than it is good, and as IMO, it is based upon falsehoods, we should put it to rest. It certainly should not be used by politicians to further their own agenda. You really seem to jump to some a pretty nasty conclusions about me. I guess Im like 99% of the people on this board in 99% of the way.
Not terrorism, since I reserve that for grand scale attacks involving loss of life, but certainly thuggish, intimidation. You want people to not be able to express themselves. Even at work or in office expression of personal belief of any kind should be tolerated.
so im a thuggish, intimidator, i'll let that pass, I let many people express more to me than I wish to hear, I dont respond in any other way than gracefully, usually. But I think it is important that some people (ie you prez, or my Tony Blair) realise that they are in a very responsible position, and should act accordingly. They were put there to do a very important job, so I do not want them to add their own trite, especially if they cannot prove it.
I'll protest a Muslim being silenced.
I'll protest a person like you being silenced
I'll protest a Christian being silenced
I'll protest a (religion x) being silenced.
so would I, but certain people need to address the world in the proper context of their position. World leaders, can be whatever religion they want for all I care, but when carrying out official duty, they behaviour must reflect their responsibility.
The onus is on the listener to understand that a person in office does not speak for the entirety of the people being served by that person. That would be impossible. Last I heard, the way democracy works is the majority of the people pick the winner, not the minority.
According to Gore, thats not quite how it works in your country though. Though don't get me wrong, I couldn't give a toss who your prez is.
Thus, the winner tends to reflect the attributes of the majority. This doesn't translate into death camps and expulsion of all the other types of people as much as you might like to pretend it does
Thats quite an assumption!
I'd turn the cynicism onto Europe first if I were you. Seems to me every few decades there is a genocide there.
Cheap shot. But, is most of this not due to the fact that one set of people driven by an fear ridden figurehead are duped into believing that such a person is such an immediate threat that they must be eliminated at all cost. Gees, I see a few parallels here!
Originally posted by MarcUK
Slightly off topic, It doesn't suprise me. In my working life, I have met two evangilistic Christians. I forget which Brand the first one was, he was our system IT man. He lied, deceived, held the company to randsom, ran up huge company bills, downloaded porn on the system by coming back to work after everyone had gone home, and finally, ordered a new computer to be our server, of which over 75% of the order was actually for his own home computer. Then I shopped him and he was fired!
This was while telling me I was a sinner and I could go to hell if I didn't change my ways.
My immediate boss, at my present company, is of the Creationist 'strain' of Christianity. He likes to tell me how hes been saved, because he has let the lord into his life, he tells me I am blinded, deceived by satan. He has told me Satan put fossils into the ground to fool us into thinking the Earth is more than 3000 years old. He likes to tell me how evolution can only produce mutations of death. So what' is he like?
He lies, deceives, stitches up co-workers, is extremely lazy, holds the company to randsom if he doesn't get his own way, creates situations which only he can save, whilst making someone else look stupid, goes home, or shopping when his boss is away, etc...etc
I got him good lately. He was sent out to view some software the boss is thinking of buying. The meeting was to end at 12.30 thereabouts. The trip was <50 miles back. He got back to the office at 4.55pm, just in time to go home. When he got in we had this cock and bull story about how there was this big accident like 30 miles away and the army were out to clear up the mess. However it had seriously started snowing at 3oclock, by 4.30, there was 4" of snow on my car. Strangely there was exactly 4" of snow on his car too when he turned up.
As I left, I just said "Funny snow these days, even sticks to your car when doing 60!". There was like this 5 seconds of eery silence, then everyone knew he has been sitting at home since at least 3pm.
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
You know,,, I know this Black person,,,, you know,,,, and he is really different than us white folk.....
He is really lazy, and he lies,
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Black people?
MarkUK you need to learn not to fall into a trap of bigotry.
I am very serious.
Fellowship
Originally posted by MarcUK
I might get flamed for this, but I wonder to myself, what would happen if we spent $100 billion being genuinely nice, friendly and understanding. It seems most of the large terrorist threats come from impoverished countries, where a few with the $, can lead a whole army of uneducated idealistic peasants. If they had homes, jobs, education, prospects, responsibilities, commitments, would they feel the need to blow the shit out of us?
JOHNQ...
Im quoting myself from much earlier, before I got into this discussion,
DO I THINK LIKE THE ASSHOLE YOU THINK I AM?
A good example is the rise of Nazism. Every historian knows that this was directly related to the harsh peace treaty imposed on Germany at the end of WW1.
It's pretty simple really. Look at where democracy and respect for personal freedoms thrives. Look at where tyranny and terrorism thrive. Notice a pattern? If this was science, it would be regarded as extremely statistically significant.
Hope that makes some sense. I just don't have the time right now to argue it more cogently.
Originally posted by Fellowship
You know,,, I know this Black person,,,, you know,,,, and he is really different than us white folk.....
He is really lazy, and he lies,
Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Black people?
MarkUK you need to learn not to fall into a trap of bigotry.
I am very serious.
Fellowship
Thankyou for bringing black people into it.
It is pretty obvious to me that there is something fundamentally wrong with how these two guys i know are interpretting the teachings of the Bible. Now I live in a small community in prosperous UK averageville. I really don't want to know what kind of shite is practised in the name of Christianity in more deprived, less tolerant, extremist areas.
There IS something fundamentally wrong with the practising of much of Christianity today(and all religions). I actually had a christian upbringing, and I know, most of what I see in the name of Christianity not what was taught to me by my parents.
I am perfectly capable of realising that there are still some good Christians, of which I am proud not to be one.
[edit] to add that most of my best friends were christians at school and they did not behave like this. Or maybe thats how they behave when they became adults.
Originally posted by MarcUK
Thankyou for bringing black people into it.
It had everything to do with you. I held the mirror to you and you did not like what you saw.
I just replaced the word Christian with Black people.
Take your head out of the sand and face up to the fact that bigotry is wrong no matter what stripe.
thank you
Fellows
I dont (or didn't) mean to offend anyone, but I doubt that you can seriously argue about the conclusion I have made.
Originally posted by Fellowship
It had everything to do with you. I held the mirror to you and you did not like what you saw.
I just replaced the word Christian with Black people.
thank you
Fellows
respectfully disagree entirely.
Originally posted by MarcUK
I think the point I am trying to make, is that so many people use their Christianity as an automatic, "Hey trust me I go to Church" that it is sensible to regard anyone who uses this approach as less trustworthy than average. I think thats in context to a large proportion of this thread.
I dont (or didn't) mean to offend anyone, but I doubt that you can seriously argue about the conclusion I have made.
You are welcome to generalize all you wish. Don't let me get in the way.
fellows
As of late I just hate to see you relegate all Christians as a certain thing because you bring up two examples of flawed so-called Christians.
I do not see why you feel it to be of importance because while in the process of gossip about your "Christian" co-workers in your circle of influence you seem to glow with a sort of "Yeah those are Christians for ya" kind of attitude.
You yourself said: Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
I just think it is sad to jump on any bandwagen as to paint any set of believers of a given religion as any one bigoted assessment.
fellows
My gripe with 'christians' is when they support violence and killing, things that jesus would never support, and they use his name in justification for it. Obviously not ALL christians do this, I never said they did, but I come across more that do every single day.
Originally posted by Fellowship
MarkUK I have admired you over the years here at AI. I truly have. You have been very balanced in the past here at AO / Fireside.
As of late I just hate to see you relegate all Christians as a certain thing because you bring up two examples of flawed so-called Christians.
I do not see why you feel it to be of importance because while in the process of gossip about your "Christian" co-workers in your circle of influence you seem to glow with a sort of "Yeah those are Christians for ya" kind of attitude.
You yourself said: Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with todays Christians?
I just think it is sad to jump on any bandwagen as to paint any set of believers of a given religion as any one bigoted assessment.
fellows
But isn't it true?
we have Christians on TV, on the radio, in newspapers, magazines, more disturbingly - leading the country, in the military, in large corporate business, in small business, in 2 of my last employments, every town, every country.
and they're all talking shit. Lies, deceit, spin, greed, corruption, etc etc
I don't believe that they are behaving in accordance with the teachings of the Bible, yet people hang on every world they say because they assume that they must be good because they go to church. Yet in reality, they are no better than mr average. IMO it makes them worse, because they hide behind the veil of rightousness.
I dont believe it is so hard to make a general statement - about a large proportion of so called Christians. I know, I really really do, that they are not all like that. Im not trying to attack you personally - I think I did that a couple of years ago. But I learned, and thanks to you I changed my worldview.
[edit] y'know, my 2 experiences, are relavent, because as I said before, I live almost in the middle of nowhere, a small community in the middle of prosperous agricultural southwest UK, and these types are turning up here also. Its like this place never ever, ever changes, but they're here also damnit.
Originally posted by MarcUK
But isn't it true?
I just wanted to make sure you were not labeling all Christians as any one thing in a bigoted manner. That was my only purpose in addressing your posts MarkUK.
fellows
Originally posted by Fellowship
I just wanted to make sure you were not labeling all Christians as any one thing in a bigoted manner. That was my only purpose in addressing your posts MarkUK.
fellows
just like you made sure that johnQ wasn't biggotting me personally (and every non-believer, all 99 of them!) as a terrorist, thug, intimidator, intolerant, asshole.? Eh?
Sod this, - fancy a beer Fellowship
WHATEVER! No, I wouldn't. Are you implying that I am a likely terrorist?
Sad.
reeeaaaaalllly
Originally posted by Fellowship
Ok neither of you are any such thing.
Did you miss that MarkUK?
and yes I would take a beer anytime
fellows