I was predicting WWDC for the Powerbook - but just noticed that MOSR are now as well!, Ouch, looks like it now wont be till MWSF05!.
That aside, does Apple have any G4's faster than 1.33G in volume for the PB's to be updated now?, I think Moto's 7447's have only just now gone into volume production. Oh, and its max 1.5G (still id be tempted).
2 hours TOPS? That really blows! What in the heck happened between Ti/Aluminum, besides the different CPU? Surely that couldn't tie up that much more energy!
The battery pack in the Ti 1Ghz is notably larger than the one on the Al. I think it's 60Wh down to 42Wh. I got one of the first 1Ghz Ti's in late 2002, and it still gets a bit more than 4 hours of charge during pretty steady use.
BTW: Performa 636CD, nice name, is that your first mac or what? Look at my name and what it was a Apple codename for
yup, i was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that. it was the first computer i learned on and its OS was System 7. ahhhh the days of Marathon, Star Wars: Rebel Assault, and WarCraft...
Between March 28, 2004, and June 26, 2004, purchase a Power Mac G5 and a 23-inch Cinema HD Display at the same time ? and get $500 back by mail.
If Apple were about to release PowerMacs with 970fx before WWDC, why give away money on such promotions? It really looks like the next revision of G5 PowerMacs is being delayed until WWDC.
Though I may be wrong, 970fx isn't going to PowerBooks before PowerMacs. You may argue that Xserve got it before PowerMacs. On the other hand, the cryptic recent delay of Xserves may point to some manufacturing problems. On the third hand (), there are rumours about some connection of new PowerMacs with yet-to-be-released cards from ATI/Nvidia, which might delay PowerMacs and not PowerBooks. Cooling issues surely exist which are caused by the system controller, rather than the CPU. Other problems can easily appear that we don't know about.
personally, i see the G5 powerbook anounced in january of 2005, powerbook G5s being shipped around march, and all the kinks worked out around summer 2005
Personally, I see it being announced Jan. 2005 with it actually shipping in September of 2005.
If new G4 based machines arrive this month, they will most likely persist untill the end of the year.
Maybe longer.
There may be a period when we have powerbook G4's and powerbook G5's.
A lot depends on heat/drain and the associated mass that could be needed to mitigate those.
Apple doesn't like to make 7lbs plus machines, but they may have to.
Everyone pointed to some obscure IBM figures hasn't actually used a chip, and likely doesn't have any inkling about what it takes to get a system down to the right consumption characteristics for a laptop. I don't either, but I trust trends, and they don't suggest imminent G5 powerbooks.
And who knows, Moto may be back before too long. 7447A is supposed to have some pretty neat powersaving.
If Apple can clock all the powerbooks in the 1.33-1.5Ghz range and simultaneously provide a meaningful boost in battery life, they'll stack up nicely against Centrino machines.
The way I see it, it would be relatively easy for Apple to get a 970FX into a powerbook if they wanted to - but the time delay before release really depends on the rest of the engineering. If they stuck a big battery in (like most wintels nowadays), then there's no reason why with the power consumption of the latest G5's a notebook with better battery life than the currrent crop couldn't be released now. Apple have had access to 970 and 970FX samples for a long time now- there's no reason to think that they put all their efforts into developing the powermacs without working on the 'books.
The thing is, Apple's most recent powerbooks don't follow this pattern - the batteries have been getting smaller - as noted in one of the posts above - and the product has got faster whilst remaining fundamentally the same size or getting even smaller. If Apple want to maintain this trend - which is really the USP of the latest powerbooks, things are more difficult - not because of the chips themselves, more because of the allround architecture.
The onger Apple holds off introducing G5 class powerbooks, the more likely it seems to me that a specific chip variant for notebooks is being developed- whether a g5 relative, a SoC based system, or a totally new processor.
It would nice tosee some architectural innovation in the notebook arena from Apple rather than simply cutting down the existing desktops to fit in a laptop
The longer Apple holds off introducing G5 class powerbooks, the more likely it seems to me that a specific chip variant for notebooks is being developed- whether a g5 relative, a SoC based system, or a totally new processor.
There was indeed a rumor, circulating around the end of 2003 and saying that IBM and Apple are working on a 64-bit mobile PPC chip for the Powerbooks, that is not expected to see the light of the day before 2005. If true, that would mean another two G4 updates until then.
Surely the 970FX low power, lower heat and "ready to drop into a notebook" (according to IBM) IS the notebook G5 chip?
The chip will run in a fairly small box, compared to the PowerMac anyway, in the Xserve. Here however it requires 8 fans (Just like the PM) and a copper heat sink to keep it cool at 2.0GHz.
On the plus side, this setup is designed to run in a rack mount enclosure, which isn't the greatest as far as ventilation is concerned, and this setup is sufficient to run two G5 chips in an Xserve.
The PBG5 is not to be used in a big rack, and does not require two chips.
(I know rumours have abounded about DP powerbooks, I'll get to those at the end of this post.)
Also, the PB would not really need to run at 2.0 GHz. Obviously it would be nice, but if a PBG4 is still considered a fair match for the Centrino/Pentium M (whatever its called this week), the a G5 running at same or lower speeds, should still comfortably wipe the floor with it.
I'd say the biggest obstacle to the PBG5 is now the system bus. Current G4 is only 167MHz, PM(1.6) is 800MHz, Xserve is 1GHz. Thats a big difference. (The PMG5s all run with a multiplier of 2. Not sure if there's any problem increasing that, but if there is, the G5 would only run at 333MHz in a PB.)
The 60-odd Watt high performance batteries available for G4s should be OK, given power figures quoted above for the 970FX. So again the chipset is likely to be causing the issues with power and heat (Heat = cooling=power). 8 fans in a powerbook is out of the question, of course.
Pity they can't convert some of that heat back into power. A 'laptop alternator'.
Dual Processor Powerbooks:
If the chipset is consuming too much power and emitting too much heat (I'm not the first to suggest this), putting two chipsets in is not gonna be top of the list as far as Apple are concerned.
If they did it, expect a substantial size increase in PB. And running two FXs is going to kill any battery in no time flat.
I don't see it.
They're more likely to do this with the 976 dual-core chip, and just tell everyone its a DP (With appropriate disclaimers in case Dell decide to complain about it a few years down the line).
If we're going to see a DP powerbook anytime sooner than that, it'll be a 7447A G4 DP. Now thats a whole lot more realistic:
I'd say the biggest obstacle to the PBG5 is now the system bus. Current G4 is only 167MHz, PM(1.6) is 800MHz, Xserve is 1GHz. Thats a big difference. (The PMG5s all run with a multiplier of 2. Not sure if there's any problem increasing that, but if there is, the G5 would only run at 333MHz in a PB.)
I'm not sure I know exactly which multipliers can be used, but I do know that other multipliers (3, 4 and 6 among them, I hazily recall) work with the G5. Something like 1.6 GHz G5 PB with a 400 MHz system bus would still be a great improvement over the current G4 PBs -- able to take full advantage of DDR400 RAM with that bus speed -- while perhaps being easier and cheaper to engineer than a G5 laptop with the same bus speed ratio as the G5 towers.
Really, the bus shouldn't be a problem either. Let's not forget that Wintel notebooks run with much faster busses than the G4, and they work fine. Even if the 2:1 ration of the current G5s is not suitable, there are a number of other ratios that IBM has said could be used with the G5 - it's not tied to that speed.
With the excellent power consumption/speed characteristics of the current 970FX, it will be a very poor show for Apple to not be able to release G5 based powerbooks this yeear, and hopefully sooner rather than later. Any further delay would suggest to me that either Apple's engineers are losing their grip, or secondly that they don't intend to use a G5 in powerbooks - hopefully because they have a more innovative solution available soon.
Whatever you think of Centrino and the Pentium M, it's undeniably a huge step forward over the pentium 4M for notebooks. I know the 970FX has powertune and runs cool and fast, but the benefit of a SoC based system (apart from perhaps the graphics card) would be greater. If Apple does not develop a more dedicated notebook chip and motherboard, they stand to lose out severly to Centrino and it's successors, particularly in terms of battery life for high performance laptops.
i agree with that G5 is too hot to be inside a laptop...
...the used PowerBook G4 that i'm gonna get gets pretty hot then resting on my lap(i've used it a few times).....and freezes or locks up shortly after the temperatures get unbearable...and imagine a G5 powered one ...THE NEW G5 PowerToaster...
i agree with that G5 is too hot to be inside a laptop...
...the used PowerBook G4 that i'm gonna get gets pretty hot then resting on my lap(i've used it a few times).....and freezes or locks up shortly after the temperatures get unbearable...and imagine a G5 powered one ...THE NEW G5 PowerToaster...
Really, the bus shouldn't be a problem either. Let's not forget that Wintel notebooks run with much faster busses than the G4 . . . .
Yes and no. The FSB of the latest Pentium 4's is 200Mhz. A lot of laptops still use the 133Mhz IIRC. The fact that it's "Quad pumped" doesn't mean a whole lot for a laptop without a memory architecture that supports it.
Comments
That aside, does Apple have any G4's faster than 1.33G in volume for the PB's to be updated now?, I think Moto's 7447's have only just now gone into volume production. Oh, and its max 1.5G (still id be tempted).
Originally posted by fred_lj
2 hours TOPS? That really blows! What in the heck happened between Ti/Aluminum, besides the different CPU? Surely that couldn't tie up that much more energy!
The battery pack in the Ti 1Ghz is notably larger than the one on the Al. I think it's 60Wh down to 42Wh. I got one of the first 1Ghz Ti's in late 2002, and it still gets a bit more than 4 hours of charge during pretty steady use.
Originally posted by Crusader
BTW: Performa 636CD, nice name, is that your first mac or what? Look at my name and what it was a Apple codename for
yup, i was wondering how long it would take for someone to ask that. it was the first computer i learned on and its OS was System 7. ahhhh the days of Marathon, Star Wars: Rebel Assault, and WarCraft...
Between March 28, 2004, and June 26, 2004, purchase a Power Mac G5 and a 23-inch Cinema HD Display at the same time ? and get $500 back by mail.
If Apple were about to release PowerMacs with 970fx before WWDC, why give away money on such promotions? It really looks like the next revision of G5 PowerMacs is being delayed until WWDC.
Though I may be wrong, 970fx isn't going to PowerBooks before PowerMacs. You may argue that Xserve got it before PowerMacs. On the other hand, the cryptic recent delay of Xserves may point to some manufacturing problems. On the third hand (
Who knows?
Originally posted by Performa636CD
personally, i see the G5 powerbook anounced in january of 2005, powerbook G5s being shipped around march, and all the kinks worked out around summer 2005
Personally, I see it being announced Jan. 2005 with it actually shipping in September of 2005.
Apple will set the bar again for longest delay.
Originally posted by PB
See also this Powerpage opinion.
Whoa this stinks. I so hope they are wrong. Two more G4 revisions? This would mean Apple is milking the G4 to death.
If new G4 based machines arrive this month, they will most likely persist untill the end of the year.
Maybe longer.
There may be a period when we have powerbook G4's and powerbook G5's.
A lot depends on heat/drain and the associated mass that could be needed to mitigate those.
Apple doesn't like to make 7lbs plus machines, but they may have to.
Everyone pointed to some obscure IBM figures hasn't actually used a chip, and likely doesn't have any inkling about what it takes to get a system down to the right consumption characteristics for a laptop. I don't either, but I trust trends, and they don't suggest imminent G5 powerbooks.
And who knows, Moto may be back before too long. 7447A is supposed to have some pretty neat powersaving.
If Apple can clock all the powerbooks in the 1.33-1.5Ghz range and simultaneously provide a meaningful boost in battery life, they'll stack up nicely against Centrino machines.
My G3 Lombard is still good for 2 hours on its original battery.
Originally posted by Waragainstsleep
My lecturer has a G4 Titanium, reckons he gets 20 minutes battery life these days.
My G3 Lombard is still good for 2 on its original battery.
He needs a new battery then.
The thing is, Apple's most recent powerbooks don't follow this pattern - the batteries have been getting smaller - as noted in one of the posts above - and the product has got faster whilst remaining fundamentally the same size or getting even smaller. If Apple want to maintain this trend - which is really the USP of the latest powerbooks, things are more difficult - not because of the chips themselves, more because of the allround architecture.
The onger Apple holds off introducing G5 class powerbooks, the more likely it seems to me that a specific chip variant for notebooks is being developed- whether a g5 relative, a SoC based system, or a totally new processor.
It would nice tosee some architectural innovation in the notebook arena from Apple rather than simply cutting down the existing desktops to fit in a laptop
The longer Apple holds off introducing G5 class powerbooks, the more likely it seems to me that a specific chip variant for notebooks is being developed- whether a g5 relative, a SoC based system, or a totally new processor.
There was indeed a rumor, circulating around the end of 2003 and saying that IBM and Apple are working on a 64-bit mobile PPC chip for the Powerbooks, that is not expected to see the light of the day before 2005. If true, that would mean another two G4 updates until then.
The chip will run in a fairly small box, compared to the PowerMac anyway, in the Xserve. Here however it requires 8 fans (Just like the PM) and a copper heat sink to keep it cool at 2.0GHz.
On the plus side, this setup is designed to run in a rack mount enclosure, which isn't the greatest as far as ventilation is concerned, and this setup is sufficient to run two G5 chips in an Xserve.
The PBG5 is not to be used in a big rack, and does not require two chips.
(I know rumours have abounded about DP powerbooks, I'll get to those at the end of this post.)
Also, the PB would not really need to run at 2.0 GHz. Obviously it would be nice, but if a PBG4 is still considered a fair match for the Centrino/Pentium M (whatever its called this week), the a G5 running at same or lower speeds, should still comfortably wipe the floor with it.
I'd say the biggest obstacle to the PBG5 is now the system bus. Current G4 is only 167MHz, PM(1.6) is 800MHz, Xserve is 1GHz. Thats a big difference. (The PMG5s all run with a multiplier of 2. Not sure if there's any problem increasing that, but if there is, the G5 would only run at 333MHz in a PB.)
The 60-odd Watt high performance batteries available for G4s should be OK, given power figures quoted above for the 970FX. So again the chipset is likely to be causing the issues with power and heat (Heat = cooling=power). 8 fans in a powerbook is out of the question, of course.
Pity they can't convert some of that heat back into power. A 'laptop alternator'.
Dual Processor Powerbooks:
If the chipset is consuming too much power and emitting too much heat (I'm not the first to suggest this), putting two chipsets in is not gonna be top of the list as far as Apple are concerned.
If they did it, expect a substantial size increase in PB. And running two FXs is going to kill any battery in no time flat.
I don't see it.
They're more likely to do this with the 976 dual-core chip, and just tell everyone its a DP (With appropriate disclaimers in case Dell decide to complain about it a few years down the line).
If we're going to see a DP powerbook anytime sooner than that, it'll be a 7447A G4 DP. Now thats a whole lot more realistic:
Sometime soon?:
12" [email protected], 512MB, 60GB;
15" [email protected], 512MB, 80GB;
17" [email protected] DP, 1GB, 100GB;
All with superdrives.
Last of the G4s?:
12" bumped to 1.5GHz,
15" bumped to DP 1.0GHz
17" bumped to DP 1.25GHz
Did the DP G4 PMs have a bus per CPU like the G5?
Or both share the same one?
Either way, they've had a lot longer to miniaturise these chipsets.....
Originally posted by Waragainstsleep
I'd say the biggest obstacle to the PBG5 is now the system bus. Current G4 is only 167MHz, PM(1.6) is 800MHz, Xserve is 1GHz. Thats a big difference. (The PMG5s all run with a multiplier of 2. Not sure if there's any problem increasing that, but if there is, the G5 would only run at 333MHz in a PB.)
I'm not sure I know exactly which multipliers can be used, but I do know that other multipliers (3, 4 and 6 among them, I hazily recall) work with the G5. Something like 1.6 GHz G5 PB with a 400 MHz system bus would still be a great improvement over the current G4 PBs -- able to take full advantage of DDR400 RAM with that bus speed -- while perhaps being easier and cheaper to engineer than a G5 laptop with the same bus speed ratio as the G5 towers.
With the excellent power consumption/speed characteristics of the current 970FX, it will be a very poor show for Apple to not be able to release G5 based powerbooks this yeear, and hopefully sooner rather than later. Any further delay would suggest to me that either Apple's engineers are losing their grip, or secondly that they don't intend to use a G5 in powerbooks - hopefully because they have a more innovative solution available soon.
Whatever you think of Centrino and the Pentium M, it's undeniably a huge step forward over the pentium 4M for notebooks. I know the 970FX has powertune and runs cool and fast, but the benefit of a SoC based system (apart from perhaps the graphics card) would be greater. If Apple does not develop a more dedicated notebook chip and motherboard, they stand to lose out severly to Centrino and it's successors, particularly in terms of battery life for high performance laptops.
i say not till late june or even late august as a great "back to school with apple" item
...the used PowerBook G4 that i'm gonna get gets pretty hot then resting on my lap(i've used it a few times).....and freezes or locks up shortly after the temperatures get unbearable...and imagine a G5 powered one
-Neø
Originally posted by Neø
i agree with that G5 is too hot to be inside a laptop...
...the used PowerBook G4 that i'm gonna get gets pretty hot then resting on my lap(i've used it a few times).....and freezes or locks up shortly after the temperatures get unbearable...and imagine a G5 powered one
-Neø
Originally posted by mortigi tempo
Really, the bus shouldn't be a problem either. Let's not forget that Wintel notebooks run with much faster busses than the G4 . . . .
Yes and no. The FSB of the latest Pentium 4's is 200Mhz. A lot of laptops still use the 133Mhz IIRC. The fact that it's "Quad pumped" doesn't mean a whole lot for a laptop without a memory architecture that supports it.
I'll wager my usual iTMS $10 gift certificate. The cockier - and more convinced - I get, it might go higher...