Sure, superkarate monkeydeathcar, like the christians that oppose the use of condoms, blow up abortion clinics, and think that homosexuals will go to hell?
Fundamentalist christians are just as bad as fundamentalist muslims.
I knew I shouldn't venture into AO...
Escher
well yeah, they still judge and condemn, they just no longer stone people
was what i was trying to get at.
and i know fundamentalist christians who are against killing of any kind. (amish folk come to mind)
i'm sure there are nonviolent fundamentalist muslims as well.
No no... I thought you were refering to batteries for a vibrator... I can only imagine what monstrosity D batteries fit into. Most of my friend's vibrators only need one or two AA, the odd one uses AAA.
Well I guess you were refering to vibrators at first, but then felt the need to compair penis sizes.
Edit: Now look what you made me do... in my own defence I mucked up a good between line joke. Damn.
well yeah, they still judge and condemn, they just no longer stone people
was what i was trying to get at.
and i know fundamentalist christians who are against killing of any kind. (amish folk come to mind)
i'm sure there are nonviolent fundamentalist muslims as well.
Here in Wisconsin there was a recent situation with some Amish folk. Seems that a young girl who's father had died several years back began to get regularly abused by a family that had been sort of gaurdians over her . . 'abused' meanng raped often, by several family membes -17 year old boy most often, and even at one point being choked till unconsciouse by the 59 year old patriarch.
When it came out what was going on, and had been going on for years, the Amish Community wanted to take justice into their own hands.
What did that mean?
That meant that those who were guilty of years of rape and abuse were going to be 'shunned from the church for several weeks' . . . .
And the Matriarch of the family who is guilty through aiding and abetting, would have gotten no 'sentencing"
She said to a journalist: "well that girl was the kind to bring it on with her lifestyle. . . after all she sometimes wore jeans!!!!"
This Imam will be expulsed back to his countrie : Algeria. The french secretary of state declared that this public speech was dangerous for the public peace, and was against human rights especially, women's ones.
Is there a free speech clause in France? I'm pretty sure that it's pretty limited if there is one -- given the history of those who criticize French political leaders -- but I'm just curious.
Verrrrrrry interesting, perhaps we can get a clarification from Powerdoc, but what I heard on Canadian radio tonight indicated that the imam's decree was that the Koran gives instructions to beat and stone adulterers... since Leviticus 20:10 states the same basic thing " And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.", I can believe that this is factually true in the Koran as well.
Now, whether he was saying that this should be actually *carried out* is another thing...
There are all sorts of nummy little nuggets like that in the Old Testament.
Is there a free speech clause in France? I'm pretty sure that it's pretty limited if there is one -- given the history of those who criticize French political leaders -- but I'm just curious.
There is free speech clause in France, wich is pretty limited. First it must be public speech, any private speech is not concerned by this restriction.
Second it must be hate speech. This limitation is the consequence of WW2 and the bad records of antisemitism who was tolerated by the laws and who leads to the deportation of the jews (very short and caricatural resume).
For the imam : here is a quote from a newspaper (traduction after) :
In the april edition of Lyon-Mag, Abdelkader Bouziane, Venissieux's imam, near Lyon, said that he is for the lapidation of women, polygamia. The chief of family " must stay right with his woman, don't beat without reason", but "beating his wife, is authorized by Quran (...) in some situations, especially if the wife commit adultery" he said
" but be carefull, the man do not have the right the woman everywhere" he add, " he did not have the right to hurt the face, but must target the lower side, the legs and the belly. And he can strike heavy, to scare his wife in order she did no do it again" . Interviewed tuesday before his interpellation, the Imam recocnized his speech, but said that he was only quoting religious texts.
"The law is one thing, the religion is another one" he explained at the exit of the mosque where he works " the religion teach that you can beat your wife when she commit adultery, but the law in France forbidd me to preach such things". " I always says in my preach, that in a countrie, where there is a law, you must respect the law" said the imam.
Verrrrrrry interesting, perhaps we can get a clarification from Powerdoc, but what I heard on Canadian radio tonight indicated that the imam's decree was that the Koran gives instructions to beat and stone adulterers... since Leviticus 20:10 states the same basic thing " And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.", I can believe that this is factually true in the Koran as well.
Now, whether he was saying that this should be actually *carried out* is another thing...
There are all sorts of nummy little nuggets like that in the Old Testament.
But wasn't that ruling later overturned by the Big Guy? He without sin cast the first stone and all that. I think he did that with a few of them, as I recall.
But wasn't that ruling later overturned by the Big Guy? He without sin cast the first stone and all that. I think he did that with a few of them, as I recall.
Yeah, pretty much the entire Old Testament. And yet, somehow, it hangs around to be used as justification for any old thing...
What I'd like to know though more generally is: what exactly was the crime that warranted deportation ?
Was he an illegal ? And if so what has this wife beating got to do with it ?
If he was a citizen then does this mean that no-one can quote a book that says wife beating is ok ? Will they deport Powerdoc for quoting the Imam ?
I think we should be told......
The Imam is not french, he is algerian, it's like the green card, it you don't follow the rules (read if you made a major offense) you can be "deported".
Saying that he just quoted a book is plain silly and pure hypocrisy. Do you think that the Quran discribe what part of a woman body should be beaten and other not ? . Many muslim women are beaten in France, this kind of speach is not tolerable.
However that's what think the french islam council who is for his bannishment.
Ah, so he was algerian. Good, that clears that up.
Still confused about the deportation - for being illegal or advocating wife beating ?
I'm not following this as I've given up watching the French news because it makes me too enraged and I don't have the right insurance if I needed medical care because of it....it seemed from your quote above that he was quoting the Qu'ran rather than admitting he was a wife beater.
There's a lot of Islamophobia in France these days isn't there ? I find it strange because right-wingers tend to think France is some kind of lefty paradise while really the opposite is the case and they'd feel right at home. Strange.
This Imam gave a bad opinion of Islam, and many others imams pointed out that the press should focus more on the good things of Islam rather than obscure imam exercising in garages (by their own words).
He vas deported for advocating wife beating. He is also a polygamist, but it does not broke french law. He was not illegal. but the french law, allow to fire someone if he commit major offense.
That's not the first time that this imam said such things. When he was interviewed he made his own words the "beat your wife thing" and did not say I just quote the Quran (wich is very imprecise, like the bible).
Some days ago, a husband and his brothers where arrested in the north of France. They where beaten badly a woman (her wife) because she refused to wear the veil. The neigbours heared this cries and call the police. The people who commited this said that it was their own private busisness, and that the police had nothing to do with this.
Many women in France are forced to stop their studies, and are send in algeria or elsewhere to be married with a husband that they don't know. For me it's not religion, but tradition and that's suck.
Even if i am not a perfect husband (my wife take more care of the house and my childs than me), I am advocating women rights.
Beating his wife is just a proof of weakness.
Beating his wife do not belong to any religion, or any social group (sociologic studies have demonstrated this point) , but taking the religion as an excuse of such behavioring is intolerable.
In some countries some women are killed, and the guilty people are never send in prison because of such silly behavioring .
Comments
Originally posted by Escher
Sure, superkarate monkeydeathcar, like the christians that oppose the use of condoms, blow up abortion clinics, and think that homosexuals will go to hell?
Fundamentalist christians are just as bad as fundamentalist muslims.
I knew I shouldn't venture into AO...
Escher
well yeah, they still judge and condemn, they just no longer stone people
was what i was trying to get at.
and i know fundamentalist christians who are against killing of any kind. (amish folk come to mind)
i'm sure there are nonviolent fundamentalist muslims as well.
Originally posted by \\/\\/ickes
"Oh, my... she's on to D batteries now? -- You must beat her often."
it helps if she would use them to power an appliance of some kind.
Originally posted by \\/\\/ickes
"Oh, my... she's on to D batteries now? -- You must beat her often."
What, they're too thick? OK, I'll admit to not actually having one in the house.
I guess I just looked down and made an assumption... you're packing more of a AA maybe?
No no... I thought you were refering to batteries for a vibrator... I can only imagine what monstrosity D batteries fit into. Most of my friend's vibrators only need one or two AA, the odd one uses AAA.
Well I guess you were refering to vibrators at first, but then felt the need to compair penis sizes.
Edit: Now look what you made me do... in my own defence I mucked up a good between line joke. Damn.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
well yeah, they still judge and condemn, they just no longer stone people
was what i was trying to get at.
and i know fundamentalist christians who are against killing of any kind. (amish folk come to mind)
i'm sure there are nonviolent fundamentalist muslims as well.
Here in Wisconsin there was a recent situation with some Amish folk. Seems that a young girl who's father had died several years back began to get regularly abused by a family that had been sort of gaurdians over her . . 'abused' meanng raped often, by several family membes -17 year old boy most often, and even at one point being choked till unconsciouse by the 59 year old patriarch.
When it came out what was going on, and had been going on for years, the Amish Community wanted to take justice into their own hands.
What did that mean?
That meant that those who were guilty of years of rape and abuse were going to be 'shunned from the church for several weeks' . . . .
And the Matriarch of the family who is guilty through aiding and abetting, would have gotten no 'sentencing"
She said to a journalist: "well that girl was the kind to bring it on with her lifestyle. . . after all she sometimes wore jeans!!!!"
Originally posted by Powerdoc
This Imam will be expulsed back to his countrie : Algeria. The french secretary of state declared that this public speech was dangerous for the public peace, and was against human rights especially, women's ones.
Is there a free speech clause in France? I'm pretty sure that it's pretty limited if there is one -- given the history of those who criticize French political leaders -- but I'm just curious.
Now, whether he was saying that this should be actually *carried out* is another thing...
There are all sorts of nummy little nuggets like that in the Old Testament.
Originally posted by Scott
Oh thank god. I was worried about the toads. Can we beat them and will the French excommunicate us for saying so?
As long as the French get to eat them
well . . . their legs that is.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
Is there a free speech clause in France? I'm pretty sure that it's pretty limited if there is one -- given the history of those who criticize French political leaders -- but I'm just curious.
There is free speech clause in France, wich is pretty limited. First it must be public speech, any private speech is not concerned by this restriction.
Second it must be hate speech. This limitation is the consequence of WW2 and the bad records of antisemitism who was tolerated by the laws and who leads to the deportation of the jews (very short and caricatural resume).
For the imam : here is a quote from a newspaper (traduction after) :
"dans l'édition d'avril de Lyon-Mag, Abdelkader Bouziane, imam Ã* Vénissieux, dans la banlieue de Lyon, se déclare favorable Ã* la lapidation des femmes et Ã* la polygamie. Le chef de famille "doit rester juste avec sa femme, ne pas la frapper sans raison" mais "battre sa femme, c'est autorisé par le Coran (...) dans certaines conditions, notamment si la femme trompe son mari", dit-il notamment.
In the april edition of Lyon-Mag, Abdelkader Bouziane, Venissieux's imam, near Lyon, said that he is for the lapidation of women, polygamia. The chief of family " must stay right with his woman, don't beat without reason", but "beating his wife, is authorized by Quran (...) in some situations, especially if the wife commit adultery" he said
"Mais attention, l'homme n'a pas le droit de frapper n'importe où", ajoute-t-il. "Il ne doit pas frapper au visage mais viser le bas, les jambes ou le ventre. Et il peut frapper fort pour faire peur Ã* sa femme afin qu'elle ne recommence plus." Interrogé mardi avant son interpellation, l'imam a revendiqué ses propos mais a précisé avoir cité des textes religieux
" but be carefull, the man do not have the right the woman everywhere" he add, " he did not have the right to hurt the face, but must target the lower side, the legs and the belly. And he can strike heavy, to scare his wife in order she did no do it again" . Interviewed tuesday before his interpellation, the Imam recocnized his speech, but said that he was only quoting religious texts.
"La loi, c'est une chose, la religion c'est une autre chose", a expliqué l'imam Ã* la sortie de la mosquée où il officie. "La religion dit qu'on peut frapper sa femme quand elle trompe son mari mais la loi en France m'interdit de prêcher de tels discours". "Je dis toujours dans mes prêches que, dans un pays où il y a une loi, il faut respecter la loi", a assuré l'imam.
"The law is one thing, the religion is another one" he explained at the exit of the mosque where he works " the religion teach that you can beat your wife when she commit adultery, but the law in France forbidd me to preach such things". " I always says in my preach, that in a countrie, where there is a law, you must respect the law" said the imam.
Originally posted by tonton
50% believe a man has the right to sex with his wife even when she refuses.
No means yes.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Verrrrrrry interesting, perhaps we can get a clarification from Powerdoc, but what I heard on Canadian radio tonight indicated that the imam's decree was that the Koran gives instructions to beat and stone adulterers... since Leviticus 20:10 states the same basic thing " And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.", I can believe that this is factually true in the Koran as well.
Now, whether he was saying that this should be actually *carried out* is another thing...
There are all sorts of nummy little nuggets like that in the Old Testament.
But wasn't that ruling later overturned by the Big Guy? He without sin cast the first stone and all that. I think he did that with a few of them, as I recall.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
the bible has just as many antiquated doctrines, probably more, but christians have managed to rise above them, even fundamentalist christians.
Yeah... that whole "love thy neighbor" and "Turn the other cheek" get followed daily. Oh and my favorite... "Thou shall not kill".
Gee.. I'm glad Christians have dumped these obviously outdated doctrines.
Originally posted by GardenOfEarthlyDelights
But wasn't that ruling later overturned by the Big Guy? He without sin cast the first stone and all that. I think he did that with a few of them, as I recall.
Yeah, pretty much the entire Old Testament. And yet, somehow, it hangs around to be used as justification for any old thing...
Originally posted by segovius
Frank - you don't recall correctly
What I'd like to know though more generally is: what exactly was the crime that warranted deportation ?
Was he an illegal ? And if so what has this wife beating got to do with it ?
If he was a citizen then does this mean that no-one can quote a book that says wife beating is ok ? Will they deport Powerdoc for quoting the Imam ?
I think we should be told......
The Imam is not french, he is algerian, it's like the green card, it you don't follow the rules (read if you made a major offense) you can be "deported".
Saying that he just quoted a book is plain silly and pure hypocrisy. Do you think that the Quran discribe what part of a woman body should be beaten and other not ? . Many muslim women are beaten in France, this kind of speach is not tolerable.
However that's what think the french islam council who is for his bannishment.
Originally posted by segovius
Ah, so he was algerian. Good, that clears that up.
Still confused about the deportation - for being illegal or advocating wife beating ?
I'm not following this as I've given up watching the French news because it makes me too enraged and I don't have the right insurance if I needed medical care because of it....it seemed from your quote above that he was quoting the Qu'ran rather than admitting he was a wife beater.
There's a lot of Islamophobia in France these days isn't there ? I find it strange because right-wingers tend to think France is some kind of lefty paradise while really the opposite is the case and they'd feel right at home. Strange.
This Imam gave a bad opinion of Islam, and many others imams pointed out that the press should focus more on the good things of Islam rather than obscure imam exercising in garages (by their own words).
He vas deported for advocating wife beating. He is also a polygamist, but it does not broke french law. He was not illegal. but the french law, allow to fire someone if he commit major offense.
That's not the first time that this imam said such things. When he was interviewed he made his own words the "beat your wife thing" and did not say I just quote the Quran (wich is very imprecise, like the bible).
Some days ago, a husband and his brothers where arrested in the north of France. They where beaten badly a woman (her wife) because she refused to wear the veil. The neigbours heared this cries and call the police. The people who commited this said that it was their own private busisness, and that the police had nothing to do with this.
Many women in France are forced to stop their studies, and are send in algeria or elsewhere to be married with a husband that they don't know. For me it's not religion, but tradition and that's suck.
Even if i am not a perfect husband (my wife take more care of the house and my childs than me), I am advocating women rights.
Beating his wife is just a proof of weakness.
Beating his wife do not belong to any religion, or any social group (sociologic studies have demonstrated this point) , but taking the religion as an excuse of such behavioring is intolerable.
In some countries some women are killed, and the guilty people are never send in prison because of such silly behavioring .