That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.
I have made friends for life in al'Qaeda. I admit that some of those lives will be shorter than others but we will all meet again, inshallah, in gardens full of kohl-eyed houris drinking lime juice and water.
Seriously, the time I spent in the camps in Afghanistan will stay with me for the rest of my life. (Whenever that may or may not end, I'm not really at liberty to say, suffice it to say that this may well be one of the last posts you will read from me.) I remember prom night, how I nervously took Jamilla (I think) to the well in the company of her brothers and uncles; my valedictorian speech treating with the correct method of sealing explosives into new Reeboks, oceans of Zionist blood, whether George Shaitan Bush was correctly a 'pig', a 'dog' or a 'monkey' ('monkey' I believe is correct.)
I have made friends for life in al'Qaeda. I admit that some of those lives will be shorter than others but we will all meet again, inshallah, in gardens full of kohl-eyed houris drinking lime juice and water.
Seriously, the time I spent in the camps in Afghanistan will stay with me for the rest of my life. (Whenever that may or may not end, I'm not really at liberty to say, suffice it to say that this may well be one of the last posts you will read from me.) I remember prom night, how I nervously took Jamilla (I think) to the well in the company of her brothers and uncles; my valedictorian speech treating with the correct method of sealing explosives into new Reeboks, oceans of Zionist blood, whether George Shaitan Bush was correctly a 'pig', a 'dog' or a 'monkey' ('monkey' I believe is correct.)
Happy days.
I am not sure what to make of this post...
But it definitely isn't humorous (i feel like crying actually)...
But it definitely isn't humorous (i feel like crying actually)...
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.
Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.
Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
You see, that's what happens when you parse words instead of taking the time to "...stive to comprehend..." the entire post.
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.
Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
Additionally, I don't think posting pictures here on AI will recruit more AQ operatives. I think the photos are more readily available from actual news sources. Wouldn't you agree Naples?
Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance.
[etc., etc.]
Regarding the "criminals and terrorists" angle, it is worth taking note that a recent international Red Cross report cites coalition intelligence officers? estimates that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake. Think of that when considering this whole matter. Consider, for example, how you would feel - picked up by mistake in the middle of the night - not seeing family or friends for months on end - not having any legal right or means to even question your detention - and being subject to such treatment.
Further, regarding the ?criminal and terrorists? angle, it is important to note, of course, that basic human rights to be free of torture and other abuse apply with respect to those detained even on well-founded suspicion. Those who violate such standards are themselves committing serious crimes.
The disturbing aspect of this thread, apart from the material itself, is the attitude of several of the board's conservatives, who imply approval of the abuse, act as apologists for those who did it, or deny that such stuff could happen in the first place.
The disturbing aspect of this thread, apart from the material itself, is the attitude of several of the board's conservatives, who imply approval of the abuse, act as apologists for those who did it, or deny that such stuff could happen in the first place.
sjo, I actually find most disturbing the fact that some of the posters (well, just Naples X, as he seems alone in this thread... the other Bush apologists, SDW, Scott, trumpt, et al are conspicuously absent ) seem to think that the Americans accused of this abuse are "innocent until proven guilty" and those being tortured/abused/raped/sodomized/murdered/whatever "deserved it."
I think this double standard is sickening and speaks to why much of the world dislikes the US.
I think this double standard is sickening and speaks to why much of the world dislikes the US.
I'm not sure they do. The Middle East is a lost cause, OK, but for the most part everyone dislikes your leaders, not the people who voted for them.
When Bush came to London last year, a newspaper poll found that something just less than %70 of Britons thought that the US was a 'force for good' (or something like that) and less than %50 of Britons thought that Bush should be made welcome. Can't remember the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate.
When [Rumsfeld] did [view the photos], they were ?hard to believe,? he said. ?There are other photos that depict . . . acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman.? Later, he said, ?It?s going to get still more terrible, I?m afraid.? Rumsfeld added, ?I failed to recognize how important it was.?
NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers ?severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and ?acting inappropriately with a dead body.? The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.?
Bear in mind that Naples is of the "time will tell if there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq" school.
Now he councels patience and open mindedness in the face of these attrocities.
I guess when reality intrudes on one's ideology, it is always possible to defer judgement forever, thereby striving to appear "reasonable" while refusing to face facts.
You know, like the Bush administration and its constant calls for "more evidence" in the face of things like ecological degradation.
When combined with a willingness to jump right in when the water suits you, ala the evidence thin attack on Iraq or Naples intimations of "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes to Iraqis, you get the moral incoherence and weirdly shifting rationales displayed here.
Now combine that with the self righteous "with us or against us" rhetoric of unquestioned American innocence and you get just plain old stupid, which would be kinda funny if it wasn't the dominate ideology of the day.
Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report.
First, let me say this and make it clear, I do not apologize for, condone, support or favor what these cowards and exploiters did to those prisoners. If you say that I do, you are a liar and coward of the worst kind. Make no mistake about it.
Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us. I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.
I have been very clear on my stance on this and other matters. You do not show any mental strength or debating ability or intellectual honesty by parsing tidbits of my or anybody's posts and projecting some special knowledge of my motivations.
I think that I always answer direct questions as to my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. So just ask me and when I check my email and have the time I will reply.
I thought that is how this whole thing was supposed to go.
First, let me say this and make it clear, I do not apologize for, condone, support or favor what these cowards and exploiters did to those prisoners. If you say that I do, you are a liar and coward of the worst kind. Make no mistake about it.
Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us. I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.
I have been very clear on my stance on this and other matters. You do not show any mental strength or debating ability or intellectual honesty by parsing tidbits of my or anybody's posts and projecting some special knowledge of my motivations.
I think that I always answer direct questions as to my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. So just ask me and when I check my email and have the time I will reply.
I thought that is how this whole thing was supposed to go.
Maybe I am wrong.
Naples, I generally stay out of political discussions here and I don't want to get into an inflamed argument with you about this. But, I'd like for you to reconcile couple things for me:
1) You preach "innocent until proven guilty" about the American soldiers allegedly engaging in this abuse yet you say "maybe he deserved it" regarding the dead Iraqi posted above.
and,
2) You favor "chilling" and waiting for "evidence to come out" yet you approved of a preemptive strike against Iraq rather than waiting for the weapons inspectors to do their job.
Could you help me out in understanding your beliefs regarding these inconsistencies? This is a direct question that I'd like for you to answer. Thank you very much.
a report completed in February by the International Committee of the Red Cross and leaked to media outlets Monday found that up to 90 percent of Iraqis held by U.S. and allied troops have been arrested by mistake.
So. Up to %90 of the people in this here prison might be there for no reason at all. The dead guy was probably a baker called Raed.
Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us.
Oh, hell - quick, someone lock this thread! I had no idea that we were helping terra-wrists by expressing our outrage at the behavior of American soldiers and their commanders (all the way up to the Chief one) that allowed (and in some cases encouraged) this behavior that even you, Naples, agree is very wrong.
Hey, do you think that maybe those soldiers and their commanders, are the ones helping the cause of the terra-wrists instead of us? Maybe it's their actions that are encouraging hatred and bad feelings for their country, instead of our reaction to them? NAAA - couldn't be!! The patriotic thing to do is to stick your head in the sand and ignore it!! I like your line of thinking Naples.
Quote:
I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.
You continue to speak out against those who have a problem with the actions of these soldiers and commanders, and those of us not wearing partisan blinders will continue to disagree with you. Feel free to "parse" my response (also known as "replying directly to specific points").
Bush says that the abuse is just "a few isolated cases"...but the Red Cross maintains that it is "widespread, routine" and up to 90% of the detainees had been arrested "by mistake".
There is a yawning chasm between the two stories: someone is lying.
Comments
War/no war, whatever, but how can you as a human do such a thing to another person...
Originally posted by NaplesX:
That picture shows a dead man, but does not point to how he died. If you think that flashing a picture of a dead arab is going to make anybody join AQ with you, you are fooling yourself.
I have made friends for life in al'Qaeda. I admit that some of those lives will be shorter than others but we will all meet again, inshallah, in gardens full of kohl-eyed houris drinking lime juice and water.
Seriously, the time I spent in the camps in Afghanistan will stay with me for the rest of my life. (Whenever that may or may not end, I'm not really at liberty to say, suffice it to say that this may well be one of the last posts you will read from me.) I remember prom night, how I nervously took Jamilla (I think) to the well in the company of her brothers and uncles; my valedictorian speech treating with the correct method of sealing explosives into new Reeboks, oceans of Zionist blood, whether George Shaitan Bush was correctly a 'pig', a 'dog' or a 'monkey' ('monkey' I believe is correct.)
Happy days.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
I have made friends for life in al'Qaeda. I admit that some of those lives will be shorter than others but we will all meet again, inshallah, in gardens full of kohl-eyed houris drinking lime juice and water.
Seriously, the time I spent in the camps in Afghanistan will stay with me for the rest of my life. (Whenever that may or may not end, I'm not really at liberty to say, suffice it to say that this may well be one of the last posts you will read from me.) I remember prom night, how I nervously took Jamilla (I think) to the well in the company of her brothers and uncles; my valedictorian speech treating with the correct method of sealing explosives into new Reeboks, oceans of Zionist blood, whether George Shaitan Bush was correctly a 'pig', a 'dog' or a 'monkey' ('monkey' I believe is correct.)
Happy days.
I am not sure what to make of this post...
But it definitely isn't humorous (i feel like crying actually)...
Originally posted by billybobsky
I am not sure what to make of this post...
But it definitely isn't humorous (i feel like crying actually)...
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.
Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.
Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
You see, that's what happens when you parse words instead of taking the time to "...stive to comprehend..." the entire post.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why do you parse my words from the whole post?
Originally posted by NaplesX
[Because] you are...forgetting the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing that we here pride ourselves in.
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah
NaplesX said I was posting pictures of "dead Arabs" to try and get people to join me in al'Qaeda. So I thought I'd reminisce about my times in the mountains.
Ignore these posts, people, sorry. Address the topic. I'm thread death right now.
Additionally, I don't think posting pictures here on AI will recruit more AQ operatives. I think the photos are more readily available from actual news sources. Wouldn't you agree Naples?
Originally posted by NaplesX
All of you people are ridiculous....
[...]
Noone in their right mind thought it was right to do those things to these prisoners, but the level of outrage over criminals and terrorists is a little off balance.
[etc., etc.]
Regarding the "criminals and terrorists" angle, it is worth taking note that a recent international Red Cross report cites coalition intelligence officers? estimates that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake. Think of that when considering this whole matter. Consider, for example, how you would feel - picked up by mistake in the middle of the night - not seeing family or friends for months on end - not having any legal right or means to even question your detention - and being subject to such treatment.
Further, regarding the ?criminal and terrorists? angle, it is important to note, of course, that basic human rights to be free of torture and other abuse apply with respect to those detained even on well-founded suspicion. Those who violate such standards are themselves committing serious crimes.
Originally posted by sammi jo
The disturbing aspect of this thread, apart from the material itself, is the attitude of several of the board's conservatives, who imply approval of the abuse, act as apologists for those who did it, or deny that such stuff could happen in the first place.
sjo, I actually find most disturbing the fact that some of the posters (well, just Naples X, as he seems alone in this thread... the other Bush apologists, SDW, Scott, trumpt, et al are conspicuously absent
I think this double standard is sickening and speaks to why much of the world dislikes the US.
Originally posted by torifile
I think this double standard is sickening and speaks to why much of the world dislikes the US.
I'm not sure they do. The Middle East is a lost cause, OK, but for the most part everyone dislikes your leaders, not the people who voted for them.
When Bush came to London last year, a newspaper poll found that something just less than %70 of Britons thought that the US was a 'force for good' (or something like that) and less than %50 of Britons thought that Bush should be made welcome. Can't remember the exact figures, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate.
When [Rumsfeld] did [view the photos], they were ?hard to believe,? he said. ?There are other photos that depict . . . acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman.? Later, he said, ?It?s going to get still more terrible, I?m afraid.? Rumsfeld added, ?I failed to recognize how important it was.?
NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers ?severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and ?acting inappropriately with a dead body.? The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.?
Now he councels patience and open mindedness in the face of these attrocities.
I guess when reality intrudes on one's ideology, it is always possible to defer judgement forever, thereby striving to appear "reasonable" while refusing to face facts.
You know, like the Bush administration and its constant calls for "more evidence" in the face of things like ecological degradation.
When combined with a willingness to jump right in when the water suits you, ala the evidence thin attack on Iraq or Naples intimations of "guilty until proven innocent" when it comes to Iraqis, you get the moral incoherence and weirdly shifting rationales displayed here.
Now combine that with the self righteous "with us or against us" rhetoric of unquestioned American innocence and you get just plain old stupid, which would be kinda funny if it wasn't the dominate ideology of the day.
Red Cross delegates saw U.S. military intelligence officers mistreating prisoners under interrogation at Abu Ghraib and collected allegations of abuse at more than 10 other detention facilities, including the military intelligence section at Camp Cropper at Baghdad International Airport and the Tikrit holding area, according to the report.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040510/D82FUT9O1.html
Systemic, not necessarily systematic.
First, let me say this and make it clear, I do not apologize for, condone, support or favor what these cowards and exploiters did to those prisoners. If you say that I do, you are a liar and coward of the worst kind. Make no mistake about it.
Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us. I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.
I have been very clear on my stance on this and other matters. You do not show any mental strength or debating ability or intellectual honesty by parsing tidbits of my or anybody's posts and projecting some special knowledge of my motivations.
I think that I always answer direct questions as to my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. So just ask me and when I check my email and have the time I will reply.
I thought that is how this whole thing was supposed to go.
Maybe I am wrong.
Originally posted by NaplesX
You people are funny, yet not in a ha ha way.
First, let me say this and make it clear, I do not apologize for, condone, support or favor what these cowards and exploiters did to those prisoners. If you say that I do, you are a liar and coward of the worst kind. Make no mistake about it.
Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us. I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.
I have been very clear on my stance on this and other matters. You do not show any mental strength or debating ability or intellectual honesty by parsing tidbits of my or anybody's posts and projecting some special knowledge of my motivations.
I think that I always answer direct questions as to my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. So just ask me and when I check my email and have the time I will reply.
I thought that is how this whole thing was supposed to go.
Maybe I am wrong.
Naples, I generally stay out of political discussions here and I don't want to get into an inflamed argument with you about this. But, I'd like for you to reconcile couple things for me:
1) You preach "innocent until proven guilty" about the American soldiers allegedly engaging in this abuse yet you say "maybe he deserved it" regarding the dead Iraqi posted above.
and,
2) You favor "chilling" and waiting for "evidence to come out" yet you approved of a preemptive strike against Iraq rather than waiting for the weapons inspectors to do their job.
Could you help me out in understanding your beliefs regarding these inconsistencies? This is a direct question that I'd like for you to answer. Thank you very much.
a report completed in February by the International Committee of the Red Cross and leaked to media outlets Monday found that up to 90 percent of Iraqis held by U.S. and allied troops have been arrested by mistake.
So. Up to %90 of the people in this here prison might be there for no reason at all. The dead guy was probably a baker called Raed.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Second, I as always am supporting that everyone chill and let the evidence come out. Time makes things clear. Too many of you jump to conclusions way too soon and help encourage hatred and bad feelings toward this country, and more impotently it's citizens IMO. I is also my opinion that those that do this are actually helping those wish to harm us.
Oh, hell - quick, someone lock this thread! I had no idea that we were helping terra-wrists by expressing our outrage at the behavior of American soldiers and their commanders (all the way up to the Chief one) that allowed (and in some cases encouraged) this behavior that even you, Naples, agree is very wrong.
Hey, do you think that maybe those soldiers and their commanders, are the ones helping the cause of the terra-wrists instead of us? Maybe it's their actions that are encouraging hatred and bad feelings for their country, instead of our reaction to them? NAAA - couldn't be!! The patriotic thing to do is to stick your head in the sand and ignore it!! I like your line of thinking Naples.
I for one, will speak out against it, for the sake of at least my wife and kids. So get used to it. Name calling and trying to marginalize me will not make me stop.
You continue to speak out against those who have a problem with the actions of these soldiers and commanders, and those of us not wearing partisan blinders will continue to disagree with you. Feel free to "parse" my response (also known as "replying directly to specific points").
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...soner_abuse_19
Bush says that the abuse is just "a few isolated cases"...but the Red Cross maintains that it is "widespread, routine" and up to 90% of the detainees had been arrested "by mistake".
There is a yawning chasm between the two stories: someone is lying.
I wonder who?