Nick, I too would love to hear about your sexist, militaristic universities where human rights are disdained, as are intellectuals and the arts.
Please expand, but don't forget to use the following as your reference as this is (you say) a 'perfect' description. At least, you're until called on it.
No problem Harald, since you did more than post a single dismissive sentence, or insinuation, your request is granted.
Quote:
1.)_ Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
Most universities have very powerful branding and make use of it everywhere. Many have fight songs associated with various events, especially athletic events. The have these logos placed all over the campuses, on sweatshirts, bumperstickers, even credit cards.
Quote:
2.)_ Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights_
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
Many universities have adopted "speech codes" that dictate what and who may speak. Because a "need" they have ignored equal rights and adopted race based affirmative action instead of economic based affirmative action. They have adopted long lists of sexual conduct codes that even govern sexual interactions between consenting adults. (Say for example a female professor of history wanted to date a male or female student studying engineering, this is against most university codes) Finally in judging these matters, most schools do not treat them as civil or criminal matters. They handle them as internal matters. Students are often put on "trial" before Deans, Department heads, and so forth with "judgements" that are often allowed no appeal. The students are not allowed representation and are not judged by a jury of any sort let alone one of their peers.
Quote:
3.)_ Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc._
A scared populace is a compliant populace.
The common threat or foe can be labeled as white males, western civilization (which is just a large code word for white males) or conservative/christian thought. (also code for white males)
Quote:
4.)_ Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
For universities, this would have to be student government and student unions. Even during extreme fiscal hard times you will not see attempt to cut students fees that go to these organizations. The organizations themselves often fund all manner of political speech and rallies.
Quote:
5.)_ Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
I would actually have to disagree with this being a fascist characteristic. Fascist support for abortion is very high when it is used to influence parties they deem "undesirable" to avoid procreating. Eugenics is a very popular theme within fascist regimes and you cannot be selective in your gene pool unless you have abortion.
With regard to universities there is rampant sexism in the regard that you are allowed to have women's studies and also homosexual studies departments but not a "male" studies department.
Quote:
6.)_ Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
Most universities have their own mass media. It is often (student) government sponsored and controlled. Most have newspapers, radio stations, sponsors speakers and events and quite a few have their own public access television stations as well. As for censorship, see the above mentioned speech codes.
Quote:
7.)_ Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
Most large universities are actually profoundly safe when compared statistically with cities of comparable sizes. Large numbers even have their own police departments. Yet fear over personal safety, especially with regard to sexual assault and rape and constantly emphasized. This is done to keep everyone aware that men, especially white men are all "potential rapists" and complicitly helping the enemy even if they declare they are no the enemy themselves.
Quote:
8.)_ Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
Schools/student governments will invited speakers and hold forums for religious speakers who ignore the teachings of their own churches. Any attempt to bring about the actual viewpoint of these organizations with a speaker who actually espouses the views held by said organizations is kept out with speech codes or by declaring the speakers are "promoting hate and intolerance." In this regard universities co-opt religion from the students and attach it to political ideology. Thus you can be a "pro-choice" Catholic for example.
Quote:
9.)_ Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Universities are one of the few aspects of life where the cost has been allowed to exceed inflation for more than two decades. Universities have used these cost increases to bring even more power to themselves. Now they can raise fees disproportionately and award the excess fees back to desired students in "financial aid" as a form a social justice. They can create endowment funds worth billions to insure their existance. They can receive government research grants, help students get grants and loans all while keeping the money for themselves.
Quote:
10.)_ Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed._
This is very true as well. While university fees have defied inflation for over 20 years, most still have not allowed the people who are non-teaching professionals to unionize.
I have to run some more errands for now, but you can chew on this for a bit. I'll get to the last four perhaps after the Laker game.
No, nick... actually none of those describe a university...
Sorry, try again...
A lot of them pretty well describe Princeton, at least in the past four years, when taken the way Trumpt hinted. And the rest of the Ivies are "worse," in the sense that they are run by less compromising leftists. If you don't believe me, come stay here for four years.
A lot of them pretty well describe Princeton, at least in the past four years, when taken the way Trumpt hinted. And the rest of the Ivies are "worse," in the sense that they are run by less compromising leftists. If you don't believe me, come stay here for four years.
i am in grad school at one of the "ivies"... i really see little of anything that nick claims there to be... maybe its just that the sciences are free from this sort of thing but the only political bias there (and lets be straight forward here, this is what nick is tongue in cheek implying) is the cronyism that the bush administration has brought to it... you don't become a scientific advisor nowadays unless you are politically conservative... and that my dear fellows is incredibly irrelevant to the task at hand as is the political affiliation of the professors and students unless they are teaching politics or some derivative of it...
the white male isn't under attack any more (just as the native cultures of south east asia aren't under attack nor the immigrant groups...each period has its target and it just so happens that nick and most of the people complaining are members of the most recent group as members of previous groups have complained -- so complain away nick, you aren't showing that there is a bias just an intellectual game that has run its course)... (really, the discussion in that realm has shifted to a far more deep analysis of individuals...)
i am in grad school at one of the "ivies"... i really see little of anything that nick claims there to be... maybe its just that the sciences are free from this sort of thing but the only political bias there (and lets be straight forward here, this is what nick is tongue in cheek implying) is the cronyism that the bush administration has brought to it... you don't become a scientific advisor nowadays unless you are politically conservative... and that my dear fellows is incredibly irrelevant to the task at hand as is the political affiliation of the professors and students unless they are teaching politics or some derivative of it...
the white male isn't under attack any more (just as the native cultures of south east asia aren't under attack nor the immigrant groups...each period has its target and it just so happens that nick and most of the people complaining are members of the most recent group as members of previous groups have complained -- so complain away nick, you aren't showing that there is a bias just an intellectual game that has run its course)... (really, the discussion in that realm has shifted to a far more deep analysis of individuals...)
I hate to nitpick about grammar, but really, if you are at the graduate level of an ivy league school, couldn't you at least use punctuation and capitalization?!? I would love to respond to you, but I just can't understand what this says.
Call it what you want, but heaven forbid you think about it instead of just dismiss it.
Nick
It wouldn't hurt for you to think about it either, Nick. You make some interesting points, but I think the fact that "left wing fascism" is a contradiction in terms undermines your whole argument. It's at least confusing. Whereas BuonRotto was too exclusive in his use of the word, you are being far too inclusive. I mean, affirmative action supposedly indicates some tenet of fascism? That's an argument not easily made. It's a strech to say the least. Your post is littered with largely unproven examples like that. I'd be glad to discuss one or two at a time.
I hate to nitpick about grammar, but really, if you are at the graduate level of an ivy league school, couldn't you at least use punctuation and capitalization?!? I would love to respond to you, but I just can't understand what this says.
Nick
Dude. He's not speaking gibberish. This is a flimsy excuse to just ignore what he said.
Which is the fascism from your perspective bunge? The booing of the author? Or the fact that the administration brought him in for a political speech under the guise of a commencement speech. The choice is listen to the author rant on about Bush for 20 minutes, when what he is supposed to be doing is inspiring and helping celebrate the fact that these people are graduating, or miss the graduation of your family member. (for the if you don't want to listen, don't go crowd)
Quote:
Doctorow, who spent virtually all of his 20-minute address in Hempstead criticizing Bush, told the crowd that like himself the president is a storyteller. But "sadly they are not good stories this president tells," he said. "They are not good stories because they are not true." That line provoked the first boos, along with scattered cheers.
Doesn't sound like they were booing over one joke, one line, or even one paragraph. It sounds like he was being booed for giving a political speech instead of a commencement address.
Quote:
Originally posted by BR
Dude. He's not speaking gibberish. This is a flimsy excuse to just ignore what he said.
Actually he is speaking gibberish. If I could have understood it, I would have addressed it. You are welcome to search for how many times I have made a comment about grammar. I know I make plenty of typos myself so I hate doing it for others. But his two paragraphs were two gigantic run on sentences. You can diagram them to find their true intent but I could not.
It wouldn't hurt for you to think about it either, Nick. You make some interesting points, but I think the fact that "left wing fascism" is a contradiction in terms undermines your whole argument. It's at least confusing. Whereas BuonRotto was too exclusive in his use of the word, you are being far too inclusive. I mean, affirmative action supposedly indicates some tenet of fascism? That's an argument not easily made. It's a strech to say the least. Your post is littered with largely unproven examples like that. I'd be glad to discuss one or two at a time.
I don't consider left wing fascism to be a contradiction. I'm sure that true leftist as yourself will claim that true communism has still never been attempted. The attempts at it have still not led to equality. They have not stopped the few from profiting from the many or provided for the common good.
I'll ask you this Shawn. Do you want me to take what has been done in Cuba, Russia and China and call it Socialism/Communism? Are you claiming that all three have had loads or women leaders? Are you claiming for example that China for example respects a woman's right to choose abortion when the force one on her against her will?
You don't like my term, give me the one you prefer, but then don't complain that your socialists act more like fascist and that you advocate true socialism. The Nazi party called itself Socialist but that doesn't mean you see them as such.
As for the examples being unproven. I have no doubt that you have read much of what I have posted here. Do you truly want me to go back and rehash the same old nonsense? I've posted about speech codes here for example. You are also welcome to cite which aspects you think are misleading or wrong. Then we can get down to the one or two that you mention.
For example you mention affirmative action. The definition was quite clear. You ignore equality and human rights for a perceived "need." If African-Americans are disproportionately poor, then they will disproportionately benefit from economic based affirmative action. Choosing simply because of skin color is racist. However racism is okay in this instance because of a "need." Fits the definition perfectly in my book.
The same crowd that claims Universities are fascist often does so because 'liberal' students boo 'conservative' speakers. If that's fascism, as I so often hear, then obviously so is the link I posted.
I will let my run on sentences stand. I am sorry to anyone whose reading comprehension level isn't up to the challenge of figuring out what I said, but it is my writing style when I am exhausted.
By definition fascism and libertarianism are fundamentally opposed; while the terms liberal and conservative generally are not directly applicable to these concepts of government, at the same time it is hard to envision a conservative libertarianism or a liberal fascism. Needless to say, there exists a possibility of a liberal fascist in the individualistic sense. A university which displays fascist tendencies would be, in my book, conservative, as any individual unwilling to hear the opposition is. But there are no universities that truly act as a unit in the sense to block all, for the sake of Nick's argument, conservative ideologies. It just doesn't happen.
What Nick should be more concerned with is how we are defining the terms in this little game. My undergraduate institution is perhaps one of the most liberal schools in the nation. Yet, the conservatives are out spoken, are successful in bringing in conservative speakers, and when all is said and done have never complained about the political bias that evidently exists in the faculty. They complain about the students, yes, but that again is merely indicative of this age group -- there are a lot of idiots who go around calling themselves liberal when the fall into the category of fascist way too easily...
Commencement addresses rarely have anything to do with going off into the world today. Every single one I have attended has had some bias, even the ones given by preeminent scientists. They are a bully pulpit, from which both conservatives talking heads and liberal talking heads try to make a point to the captive audience in front of them.
On the issue of Affirmative Action. I agree that the systems bias with regard to race is overlooking a more fundamental problem of simple economics. Indeed, academic institutions would do well to view each candidate in the light of their local (school or district) peer group. Just as an example: a person who gets a 1400 on the SAT and takes three APs, in a population that for the most part gets a 900 on the SAT and don't take APs, is probably a better candidate than a person who gets a 1400 on the SAT and takes three APs from a population that gets on average a 1350 on the SATs and takes 6 APs. That being said, there has been shown racial bias in these standardized tests for what ever reason; the question becomes is the bias sufficiently large to overwhelm the test's usefulness. I honestly don't believe so, but I would need to see the numbers. One issue that is covered up when talking about Affirmative Action are the biases that still exists in this population with regard to race and sex. Having had teachers that point out the bad behavior of only the black students in class, I am not certain that this is an insignificant factor in the ultimate academic performance of students. The sexual bias and racial bias is evident in the disproportionate numbers of men and women and varying races entering certain academic fields. I am not talking about simply the ratios compared to population (that is still expected to be off because of history)... Regardless, and in here somewhere is a rational and modifiable argument for maintaining some sort of racial/sexual aspect of affirmative action at least with regards to advanced schooling and academic careers. Also of note is the desire to maintain social diversity be it race, economics, regional or religious...
'Leftist Fascism' is one of those concepts that right-wing loons like John J. Ray have been attempting to push on Freeper sites and Frontpagemag. It's up there with the Jessica Simpsonesque contention that Hitler's National Socialism was a leftist ideology.
I do agree that there are neo-fascist trappings found on a lot of US College campuses (particularly during sporting events), but I fail to see how the left-leaning politics of some academic circles or student government bodies is in any way connected with this. US Colleges are not run by student government or politics professors with a Marx fixation. US Colleges are run by business-people. The strong emphasis on brand identity is as important as it is to Coca-Cola.
Sounds like the perfect explanation of most university campuses today. Of course the facism they project is entirely from the left, but it is indeed similar to the description here.
Nick
Hmmm...learning, meeting thousands of new people many from different cultures, having three annual vacations, and even partying (!!)....sounds like a nicer, gentler kind of fascism to me.
Even if "fascism" does describe university campuses, (and having attended one and finding your appraisal to be a stretch beyond absurd), students are only under the influence of such regimes for the duration of their courses (4 years mostly), which is not a lifetime. Universities do not wield power over peoples lives as does a government.
What is so bothersome to you about further education? Is your solution to disband the universities? Burn the books? Or make universities accountable to a code approved by a central government? You want everyone to become corporate drones, indoctrinated by convenience "christianity"? Now that sounds like fascism. And just what Bush and company crave.
I . But there are no universities that truly act as a unit in the sense to block all, for the sake of Nick's argument, conservative ideologies. It just doesn't happen.
Which is the fascism from your perspective bunge? The booing of the author? Or the fact that the administration brought him in for a political speech under the guise of a commencement speech. The choice is listen to the author rant on about Bush for 20 minutes, when what he is supposed to be doing is inspiring and helping celebrate the fact that these people are graduating, or miss the graduation of your family member. (for the if you don't want to listen, don't go crowd)
Let us cast our short memories back to a recent Cheney speech given at a University were he used the time to bash Kerry . . . . What a Fascist!!
Actually he is speaking gibberish. If I could have understood it, I would have addressed it. You are welcome to search for how many times I have made a comment about grammar. I know I make plenty of typos myself so I hate doing it for others. But his two paragraphs were two gigantic run on sentences. You can diagram them to find their true intent but I could not.
Nick
They may have run-on . . . but really, there seems to be only two commas keeping them from being "Grammatical" . . or nearly so.
as far as being incomprehensible, well, I think there are many "difficult" things that you pass by right . . . we understand, there-there trumpty, its ok.
Fascism is closer to a right-wing phenomena, in that it is power for an elite, and an elite that is comprised in part by corporate heads, only in part as the corporate heads are also subservient to the elites: a class of rulers who's goal it is simply to rule-over and maintain power. (Mussolini when asked what he planned to do for Italy "I plan to rule Italy") The corporations are given power through the apparatus of the state (subsidies, anyone?) including the license to do ordinarily illegal actions: i.e.: slave labor.
They are 'lefty' in that they utilize a fiction of the volk or 'the people'. However, historically, Fascism has used this in a rabid anti-Communistic and anti-socialistic approach. The name which the German Nazi party used is a further tactic to combat Communism and Socialism by co-opting the supposed benefits of a bound together 'folk' . . . except that they were bound by being a 'folk' of a particular 'nation' . . . so, it was not a socialism or communism but a racism of a 'people', where 'the people' meant a particular 'nation'; a particular 'race'.
Bound together by race and nation: fascia in Latin = to bind
But people who can only grasp simple things get caught up on the name 'National Socialism', and disregard the facts: the obvious dissimilarities between Fascism and Socialism and the historical and extreme enmity between them, and the enumerable qualities of Fascism that would relate it to other political formations ordinarily called 'Rightist'
But ones political alliances sometimes distort simple comprehension . . .
and sometimes makes people pursue pointless and absurd claims about higher education and political formations . . .
Comments
Originally posted by trumptman
Sounds like the perfect explanation of most university campuses today. Nick
How would you know?
Oh yeah . . . you get that from Rush
Originally posted by Harald
Nick, I too would love to hear about your sexist, militaristic universities where human rights are disdained, as are intellectuals and the arts.
Please expand, but don't forget to use the following as your reference as this is (you say) a 'perfect' description. At least, you're until called on it.
No problem Harald, since you did more than post a single dismissive sentence, or insinuation, your request is granted.
1.)_ Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
Most universities have very powerful branding and make use of it everywhere. Many have fight songs associated with various events, especially athletic events. The have these logos placed all over the campuses, on sweatshirts, bumperstickers, even credit cards.
2.)_ Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights_
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
Many universities have adopted "speech codes" that dictate what and who may speak. Because a "need" they have ignored equal rights and adopted race based affirmative action instead of economic based affirmative action. They have adopted long lists of sexual conduct codes that even govern sexual interactions between consenting adults. (Say for example a female professor of history wanted to date a male or female student studying engineering, this is against most university codes) Finally in judging these matters, most schools do not treat them as civil or criminal matters. They handle them as internal matters. Students are often put on "trial" before Deans, Department heads, and so forth with "judgements" that are often allowed no appeal. The students are not allowed representation and are not judged by a jury of any sort let alone one of their peers.
3.)_ Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc._
A scared populace is a compliant populace.
The common threat or foe can be labeled as white males, western civilization (which is just a large code word for white males) or conservative/christian thought. (also code for white males)
4.)_ Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
For universities, this would have to be student government and student unions. Even during extreme fiscal hard times you will not see attempt to cut students fees that go to these organizations. The organizations themselves often fund all manner of political speech and rallies.
5.)_ Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
I would actually have to disagree with this being a fascist characteristic. Fascist support for abortion is very high when it is used to influence parties they deem "undesirable" to avoid procreating. Eugenics is a very popular theme within fascist regimes and you cannot be selective in your gene pool unless you have abortion.
With regard to universities there is rampant sexism in the regard that you are allowed to have women's studies and also homosexual studies departments but not a "male" studies department.
6.)_ Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
Most universities have their own mass media. It is often (student) government sponsored and controlled. Most have newspapers, radio stations, sponsors speakers and events and quite a few have their own public access television stations as well. As for censorship, see the above mentioned speech codes.
7.)_ Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
Most large universities are actually profoundly safe when compared statistically with cities of comparable sizes. Large numbers even have their own police departments. Yet fear over personal safety, especially with regard to sexual assault and rape and constantly emphasized. This is done to keep everyone aware that men, especially white men are all "potential rapists" and complicitly helping the enemy even if they declare they are no the enemy themselves.
8.)_ Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
Schools/student governments will invited speakers and hold forums for religious speakers who ignore the teachings of their own churches. Any attempt to bring about the actual viewpoint of these organizations with a speaker who actually espouses the views held by said organizations is kept out with speech codes or by declaring the speakers are "promoting hate and intolerance." In this regard universities co-opt religion from the students and attach it to political ideology. Thus you can be a "pro-choice" Catholic for example.
9.)_ Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
Universities are one of the few aspects of life where the cost has been allowed to exceed inflation for more than two decades. Universities have used these cost increases to bring even more power to themselves. Now they can raise fees disproportionately and award the excess fees back to desired students in "financial aid" as a form a social justice. They can create endowment funds worth billions to insure their existance. They can receive government research grants, help students get grants and loans all while keeping the money for themselves.
10.)_ Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed._
This is very true as well. While university fees have defied inflation for over 20 years, most still have not allowed the people who are non-teaching professionals to unionize.
I have to run some more errands for now, but you can chew on this for a bit. I'll get to the last four perhaps after the Laker game.
Nick
Fascism should more properly be called ?corporatism,' since it is the marriage of government and corporate power."
That's one quote from none other than Benito Mussolini.
Originally posted by billybobsky
No, nick... actually none of those describe a university...
Sorry, try again...
A lot of them pretty well describe Princeton, at least in the past four years, when taken the way Trumpt hinted. And the rest of the Ivies are "worse," in the sense that they are run by less compromising leftists. If you don't believe me, come stay here for four years.
Originally posted by trumptman
but you can chew on this for a bit. I'll get to the last four perhaps after the Laker game.
Nick
Its hard to chew on thin gruel
and the lakers are getting trounced . . . HAHA
Originally posted by Splinemodel
A lot of them pretty well describe Princeton, at least in the past four years, when taken the way Trumpt hinted. And the rest of the Ivies are "worse," in the sense that they are run by less compromising leftists. If you don't believe me, come stay here for four years.
i am in grad school at one of the "ivies"... i really see little of anything that nick claims there to be... maybe its just that the sciences are free from this sort of thing but the only political bias there (and lets be straight forward here, this is what nick is tongue in cheek implying) is the cronyism that the bush administration has brought to it... you don't become a scientific advisor nowadays unless you are politically conservative... and that my dear fellows is incredibly irrelevant to the task at hand as is the political affiliation of the professors and students unless they are teaching politics or some derivative of it...
the white male isn't under attack any more (just as the native cultures of south east asia aren't under attack nor the immigrant groups...each period has its target and it just so happens that nick and most of the people complaining are members of the most recent group as members of previous groups have complained -- so complain away nick, you aren't showing that there is a bias just an intellectual game that has run its course)... (really, the discussion in that realm has shifted to a far more deep analysis of individuals...)
Originally posted by pfflam
Its hard to chew on thin gruel
and the lakers are getting trounced . . . HAHA
Call it what you want, but heaven forbid you think about it instead of just dismiss it.
Nick
Originally posted by billybobsky
i am in grad school at one of the "ivies"... i really see little of anything that nick claims there to be... maybe its just that the sciences are free from this sort of thing but the only political bias there (and lets be straight forward here, this is what nick is tongue in cheek implying) is the cronyism that the bush administration has brought to it... you don't become a scientific advisor nowadays unless you are politically conservative... and that my dear fellows is incredibly irrelevant to the task at hand as is the political affiliation of the professors and students unless they are teaching politics or some derivative of it...
the white male isn't under attack any more (just as the native cultures of south east asia aren't under attack nor the immigrant groups...each period has its target and it just so happens that nick and most of the people complaining are members of the most recent group as members of previous groups have complained -- so complain away nick, you aren't showing that there is a bias just an intellectual game that has run its course)... (really, the discussion in that realm has shifted to a far more deep analysis of individuals...)
I hate to nitpick about grammar, but really, if you are at the graduate level of an ivy league school, couldn't you at least use punctuation and capitalization?!? I would love to respond to you, but I just can't understand what this says.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Call it what you want, but heaven forbid you think about it instead of just dismiss it.
Nick
It wouldn't hurt for you to think about it either, Nick.
Originally posted by trumptman
I hate to nitpick about grammar, but really, if you are at the graduate level of an ivy league school, couldn't you at least use punctuation and capitalization?!? I would love to respond to you, but I just can't understand what this says.
Nick
Dude. He's not speaking gibberish. This is a flimsy excuse to just ignore what he said.
Originally posted by bunge
Fascism at the University!
Which is the fascism from your perspective bunge? The booing of the author? Or the fact that the administration brought him in for a political speech under the guise of a commencement speech. The choice is listen to the author rant on about Bush for 20 minutes, when what he is supposed to be doing is inspiring and helping celebrate the fact that these people are graduating, or miss the graduation of your family member. (for the if you don't want to listen, don't go crowd)
Doctorow, who spent virtually all of his 20-minute address in Hempstead criticizing Bush, told the crowd that like himself the president is a storyteller. But "sadly they are not good stories this president tells," he said. "They are not good stories because they are not true." That line provoked the first boos, along with scattered cheers.
Doesn't sound like they were booing over one joke, one line, or even one paragraph. It sounds like he was being booed for giving a political speech instead of a commencement address.
Originally posted by BR
Dude. He's not speaking gibberish. This is a flimsy excuse to just ignore what he said.
Actually he is speaking gibberish. If I could have understood it, I would have addressed it. You are welcome to search for how many times I have made a comment about grammar. I know I make plenty of typos myself so I hate doing it for others. But his two paragraphs were two gigantic run on sentences. You can diagram them to find their true intent but I could not.
Nick
Originally posted by ShawnJ
It wouldn't hurt for you to think about it either, Nick.
I don't consider left wing fascism to be a contradiction. I'm sure that true leftist as yourself will claim that true communism has still never been attempted. The attempts at it have still not led to equality. They have not stopped the few from profiting from the many or provided for the common good.
I'll ask you this Shawn. Do you want me to take what has been done in Cuba, Russia and China and call it Socialism/Communism? Are you claiming that all three have had loads or women leaders? Are you claiming for example that China for example respects a woman's right to choose abortion when the force one on her against her will?
You don't like my term, give me the one you prefer, but then don't complain that your socialists act more like fascist and that you advocate true socialism. The Nazi party called itself Socialist but that doesn't mean you see them as such.
As for the examples being unproven. I have no doubt that you have read much of what I have posted here. Do you truly want me to go back and rehash the same old nonsense? I've posted about speech codes here for example. You are also welcome to cite which aspects you think are misleading or wrong. Then we can get down to the one or two that you mention.
For example you mention affirmative action. The definition was quite clear. You ignore equality and human rights for a perceived "need." If African-Americans are disproportionately poor, then they will disproportionately benefit from economic based affirmative action. Choosing simply because of skin color is racist. However racism is okay in this instance because of a "need." Fits the definition perfectly in my book.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Which is the fascism from your perspective bunge?
The same crowd that claims Universities are fascist often does so because 'liberal' students boo 'conservative' speakers. If that's fascism, as I so often hear, then obviously so is the link I posted.
By definition fascism and libertarianism are fundamentally opposed; while the terms liberal and conservative generally are not directly applicable to these concepts of government, at the same time it is hard to envision a conservative libertarianism or a liberal fascism. Needless to say, there exists a possibility of a liberal fascist in the individualistic sense. A university which displays fascist tendencies would be, in my book, conservative, as any individual unwilling to hear the opposition is. But there are no universities that truly act as a unit in the sense to block all, for the sake of Nick's argument, conservative ideologies. It just doesn't happen.
What Nick should be more concerned with is how we are defining the terms in this little game. My undergraduate institution is perhaps one of the most liberal schools in the nation. Yet, the conservatives are out spoken, are successful in bringing in conservative speakers, and when all is said and done have never complained about the political bias that evidently exists in the faculty. They complain about the students, yes, but that again is merely indicative of this age group -- there are a lot of idiots who go around calling themselves liberal when the fall into the category of fascist way too easily...
Commencement addresses rarely have anything to do with going off into the world today. Every single one I have attended has had some bias, even the ones given by preeminent scientists. They are a bully pulpit, from which both conservatives talking heads and liberal talking heads try to make a point to the captive audience in front of them.
On the issue of Affirmative Action. I agree that the systems bias with regard to race is overlooking a more fundamental problem of simple economics. Indeed, academic institutions would do well to view each candidate in the light of their local (school or district) peer group. Just as an example: a person who gets a 1400 on the SAT and takes three APs, in a population that for the most part gets a 900 on the SAT and don't take APs, is probably a better candidate than a person who gets a 1400 on the SAT and takes three APs from a population that gets on average a 1350 on the SATs and takes 6 APs. That being said, there has been shown racial bias in these standardized tests for what ever reason; the question becomes is the bias sufficiently large to overwhelm the test's usefulness. I honestly don't believe so, but I would need to see the numbers. One issue that is covered up when talking about Affirmative Action are the biases that still exists in this population with regard to race and sex. Having had teachers that point out the bad behavior of only the black students in class, I am not certain that this is an insignificant factor in the ultimate academic performance of students. The sexual bias and racial bias is evident in the disproportionate numbers of men and women and varying races entering certain academic fields. I am not talking about simply the ratios compared to population (that is still expected to be off because of history)... Regardless, and in here somewhere is a rational and modifiable argument for maintaining some sort of racial/sexual aspect of affirmative action at least with regards to advanced schooling and academic careers. Also of note is the desire to maintain social diversity be it race, economics, regional or religious...
I do agree that there are neo-fascist trappings found on a lot of US College campuses (particularly during sporting events), but I fail to see how the left-leaning politics of some academic circles or student government bodies is in any way connected with this. US Colleges are not run by student government or politics professors with a Marx fixation. US Colleges are run by business-people. The strong emphasis on brand identity is as important as it is to Coca-Cola.
Originally posted by trumptman
Sounds like the perfect explanation of most university campuses today. Of course the facism they project is entirely from the left, but it is indeed similar to the description here.
Nick
Hmmm...learning, meeting thousands of new people many from different cultures, having three annual vacations, and even partying (!!)....sounds like a nicer, gentler kind of fascism to me.
Even if "fascism" does describe university campuses, (and having attended one and finding your appraisal to be a stretch beyond absurd), students are only under the influence of such regimes for the duration of their courses (4 years mostly), which is not a lifetime. Universities do not wield power over peoples lives as does a government.
What is so bothersome to you about further education? Is your solution to disband the universities? Burn the books? Or make universities accountable to a code approved by a central government? You want everyone to become corporate drones, indoctrinated by convenience "christianity"? Now that sounds like fascism. And just what Bush and company crave.
Originally posted by billybobsky
I . But there are no universities that truly act as a unit in the sense to block all, for the sake of Nick's argument, conservative ideologies. It just doesn't happen.
Yes there are: Bob Jones 'University'
Originally posted by trumptman
Which is the fascism from your perspective bunge? The booing of the author? Or the fact that the administration brought him in for a political speech under the guise of a commencement speech. The choice is listen to the author rant on about Bush for 20 minutes, when what he is supposed to be doing is inspiring and helping celebrate the fact that these people are graduating, or miss the graduation of your family member. (for the if you don't want to listen, don't go crowd)
Let us cast our short memories back to a recent Cheney speech given at a University were he used the time to bash Kerry . . . . What a Fascist!!
Cheney at Westminster
Originally posted by trumptman
Actually he is speaking gibberish. If I could have understood it, I would have addressed it. You are welcome to search for how many times I have made a comment about grammar. I know I make plenty of typos myself so I hate doing it for others. But his two paragraphs were two gigantic run on sentences. You can diagram them to find their true intent but I could not.
Nick
They may have run-on . . . but really, there seems to be only two commas keeping them from being "Grammatical" . . or nearly so.
as far as being incomprehensible, well, I think there are many "difficult" things that you pass by right . . . we understand, there-there trumpty, its ok.
Fascism is closer to a right-wing phenomena, in that it is power for an elite, and an elite that is comprised in part by corporate heads, only in part as the corporate heads are also subservient to the elites: a class of rulers who's goal it is simply to rule-over and maintain power. (Mussolini when asked what he planned to do for Italy "I plan to rule Italy") The corporations are given power through the apparatus of the state (subsidies, anyone?) including the license to do ordinarily illegal actions: i.e.: slave labor.
They are 'lefty' in that they utilize a fiction of the volk or 'the people'. However, historically, Fascism has used this in a rabid anti-Communistic and anti-socialistic approach. The name which the German Nazi party used is a further tactic to combat Communism and Socialism by co-opting the supposed benefits of a bound together 'folk' . . . except that they were bound by being a 'folk' of a particular 'nation' . . . so, it was not a socialism or communism but a racism of a 'people', where 'the people' meant a particular 'nation'; a particular 'race'.
Bound together by race and nation: fascia in Latin = to bind
But people who can only grasp simple things get caught up on the name 'National Socialism', and disregard the facts: the obvious dissimilarities between Fascism and Socialism and the historical and extreme enmity between them, and the enumerable qualities of Fascism that would relate it to other political formations ordinarily called 'Rightist'
But ones political alliances sometimes distort simple comprehension . . .
and sometimes makes people pursue pointless and absurd claims about higher education and political formations . . .
Originally posted by pfflam
Yes there are: Bob Jones 'University'
Damn it...
I keep forgeting about that place.