Hope on over 'smack talkers' and get educated with what the iMac will be competing with. Value. Power. A decent graphics card for half the price of a high end iMac.
Where's iLife? Geez it sure is nice to not have to worry about dealing with Apple Support. Glad I get to rid myself of the silly notion that people actually want ONE company to call if there is a problem. I'd much rather deal 10 different companies for support. Let's spread the wealth
Quote:
You're seriously advocating that Aunt Polly go build her own box? What the hell are you smoking?
That banality of some people on these boards is astounding. Like I said Message Board Pros. They can whip up a Newegg or Pricewatch system quicker than a jiffy.
Don't we go through this every freakin' time with the same usual suspects? It's like these people haven't bought a computer in 3 freakin' years because they're in perpetual "I'm not happy with the lack of x feature I'm waiting for the next revision"
fuggit. You all can complain and sit on your asses. Next year I'm getting the Production Suite and learning some stuff and I don't give a damn about what PCs offer. I don't care if my GPU doesn't calc a gigatexel as fast as the whizbang card of the day.
Some of you should be ashamed. Mike Matas came on these boards as a teen who couldn't spell to save his life and now he has mikematas.com and delicious-monster.com at 18 running his own business!! He didn't bitch about marketshare or GPU cards. He just does what he needs to with the products he has at hand. I'm ashamed that it's taken me this long to get my arse in gear. Maybe some of you all should do the same and stop pining over PCs. They aren't going anywhere ..and neither is Apple.
Next year I'm getting the Production Suite and learning some stuff and I don't give a damn about what PCs offer. I don't care if my GPU doesn't calc a gigatexel as fast as the whizbang card of the day.
Me too. I don't care what PCs have to offer. I care about what Macs have to offer. I'd love to be able to slot in a bto graphics card with stones instead of peanuts on it.
Your last comment quoted above seems in sharp contrast/at odds to your evil twin who pines for Apple Workstation supremacy...
Say, looks like you're twice as professional as I am.
Lemon Bon Bon
Holy shiza I have no life! LOL.
Look you all know it's nothing personal but come on people.
Underperforming Mac hardware relative to PC standards is the norm. Apple will survive as long as they don't tank like they did in the late 90s.
I dread new Apple announcements because of these flame wars. It's easy to build a PC. If u want to game it's cheap. With Macintosh I want a stable platform that works and has excellent software. There's a time for brute strength and lesser stability and a time for lesser strength and improved stability. OSX offers me an enticing balance.
The iMac G5 might not be the wonderbox everyone is looking for but it will be functional.
hmurchison Professional Message Board poster since 1999
Nice emotive rant that has little to do with the thread title/fact I think Apple can improve their iMac mid and hi spec models for very little effort.
A little margin cut here...wholesale price leverage there...
I've illustrated my points.
And Apple is a whole lot bigger company than all of the retailers above, many of whom put together cheap gaming rigs with bang for buck using the very same commodity parts Apple has access to.
On a purely hardware basis...
What's different? The case. And?
(Crickets chirping...)
Lemon Bon Bon
...and Apple did lump their emac and iMac 2 sales together for many a quarter. Not the last. By then, the ghost was given up...
If the eMac sells 3 times the amount of the iMac 2...isn't it telling us all something?
Perhaps that edu and consumer customers want value. And the eMac, some credit to it..., is the closest consumer desktop to deliver. Stick a G5 1.6 in the Superdrive model and it blows the Generation 3 iMac out the water on price. Better still, lose the monitor, make the eMac headless, give me an alu 17 inch (hey, Samsung can do it...£400 quid and you get 19 inch LCD...) and I'll buy one and get some work done and play Doom 3 at 26 frames per second...
Me too. I don't care what PCs have to offer. I care about what Macs have to offer. I'd love to be able to slot in a bto graphics card with stones instead of peanuts on it.
Cool LBB there's money to be made.
Honestly Apple in 5 years will be a vastly different company. We can't let the recent success go to our heads. Apple has a market cap of just under $12 billion. Dell has a $87 billion m cap. Apple hasn't cracked 10 billion in revenue in years. Consumer Macs will remain boutique until Apple can rummage up another 5-6 billion in revenue. Apple's position is still too precarious. So I realize that I'm paying more and getting slightly less for a company that I believe in. I realize it won't always be this way.
Cheap Macs for everyone!!! Just not in 2004
Quote:
On a purely hardware basis...
What's different? The case. And?
Case- Custom
Motherboard- Custom designed controllers and slots(airport)
PC- buy chipset from Intel,Via, SiS etc. Decide feature mix. Stick on motherboard. Drop in ATX case with cheesy fascia and cheap PS. Ship mobo "just" like everyone elses.
With Macintosh I want a stable platform that works and has excellent software.
You don't have to tell me!
I'm typing this on my wife's iBook @ 600 G3 with ATI 16 meg face sucker graphics...and 66 mhz bus...
I like the Mac advantage. I love OS se'X'. Bad ass machine.
The 1.6 gig XP Athlon sits next to me. No, folks, it just sits. I don't like turning it on.
I made my multimedia cd using this and not the athlon using flash, dreamweaver, photoshop etc. Saw too much of the bouncing beach ball at times though...
Honestly Apple in 5 years will be a vastly different company. We can't let the recent success go to our heads. Apple has a market cap of just under $12 billion. Dell has a $87 billion m cap. Apple hasn't cracked 10 billion in revenue in years. Consumer Macs will remain boutique until Apple can rummage up another 5-6 billion in revenue. Apple's position is still too precarious. So I realize that I'm paying more and getting slightly less for a company that I believe in. I realize it won't always be this way.
Cheap Macs for everyone!!! Just not in 2004
I hear what you're saying. I do think Steve is a strategist. And Apple's revenue and bank balance are increasing. I get it. I do. Honest. But.
But... there are better graphics cards that could be slotted into an iMac top end machine or mid-ranger for comparatively little extra.
At least use the Nvidia removeable laptop graphics slot tech'! C'mon, Apple...give me an olive branch...a sign...a ray of hope...a shaft...(of light...)
Why does it feel like Apple is going to move through older cards from ATI and Nvidia for the rest of the year? I'm starting to think that Apple has PCI Express next year coming and hasn't committed to buying any new cards until then. A calculated risk that could bit them in the arse and made worse by the iMac delay. Had the iMac shipped in June the market would be different as PCI Express cards weren't shipping in volume.
There's more at play here. I found it odd that the 5200 was used in the powermacs and now possibly in the iMacs. Could be last batch of AGP cards purchased by Apple.
Good lord Mac users have had enough transitions lately. Let us peacefully move to PCI Express and relax a bit.
For the record, Intel Extreme graphics aren't all that bad. They are comparable to the original Radeon/Radeon 7500 or GeForce2 MX in performance. There are reports of people breaking 20fps in Doom 3 with them.
The GeforceFX 5200 is CoreImage/Video capable, but because it is such a slow GPU, the benefits will probably be negligible over the CPU. It won't be a fun experience. Faster cores and memory and larger numbers of pipelines will matter.
TS is never wrong. It's time to dump some AAPL before the new iMac hits the fan.
...once again, Apple feels it necessary to stick it in, twist it, and break it off in their customer's ass.
I hated Apple for forcing me to sell the IIvx for 3 months knowing the Centris 650 was out soon. I was hoping they would grow to respect their customers more over the years, but apparently they haven't.
An FX5200? Christ sakes. Screw Apple.
Hey, want a box in which you can add a PCI card or upgrade the video card? That will be $2k, please.
Its a freaking travesty. The sooner Apple's hardware business fails, the better. Then they'll be forced to survive on their strengths, damn fine software and not bloated margins on crap spec "consumer" models.
News flash. The only people who care about high-performance with their games are... gamers.
....LOL, do I need to dig up the posts from all the whiners who went on about Quartz Extreme, Core Image, and Core Video requirements?
So, still think Apple should use 3 year old tech in their video cards for $2000? Then we can get a fresh round of whining when Apple throws out the next GPU accessing software that your 1 year old $2000 picture frame can't use cuz Apple INTENTIONALLY stuck it in your ass.
I think Hmurchinson believes that if he keeps repeating that the eMac CRT is better than a mid range LCD it will eventually be true.
That's total BS and you know it.
A mid range LCD will exhibit a high contrast ratio (600:1-700:1), and decent refresh (25-35ms), as well as Zero focus problems, perfect geometry, absolutely no moire, no flicker, wide viewing angles of 160 degrees or more, and all while giving off less than a tenth of the retina cooking radiation of a CRT.
The eMac's CRT is also a decidely average shadow mask based design with bad moire and middling refresh (it can't top 85hz at anything past XGA, relegating it to the res of the average 15" LCD, but without any of the benefits.)
The 999 eMac (apart from the superdrive) is a 500 dollar computer with a 300 dollar Apple logo on it.
I've been thinking about it and i will almost definitely buy the high end iMac.
All it took was a bit of a deeper probe into what i'd actually use a new Mac system. General net browsing, word processing, using the system as a digital hub, iLife, iPod and the stuff that goes with it.
The high end iMac will do all of that. If i want to experiment with video editing (which i do), it will do a perfectly good job of that for the level i'll be using it at.
For the record, Intel Extreme graphics aren't all that bad. They are comparable to the original Radeon/Radeon 7500 or GeForce2 MX in performance. There are reports of people breaking 20fps in Doom 3 with them.
The most important thing lots of people overlook is that you can upgrade to a better GPU if you want when you get a PC with Intel Extreme graphics. You will never, ever be able to upgrade the GPU on your iMac or eMac. You will be stuck with that slow GPU for the life of the machine.
....LOL, do I need to dig up the posts from all the whiners who went on about Quartz Extreme, Core Image, and Core Video requirements?
So, still think Apple should use 3 year old tech in their video cards for $2000? Then we can get a fresh round of whining when Apple throws out the next GPU accessing software that your 1 year old $2000 picture frame can't use cuz Apple INTENTIONALLY stuck it in your ass.
Ahhhhh... so you're intimately experienced with the hardware requirements of CoreImage? You know for a fact that CI will have problems on this? Do share with us your in-depth experience, I'm sure we'd be thrilled to hear it. Newsflash: realtime is as fast as it gets. Added power is wasted on CI.
The 5200 will *CONTINUE* to be a fine choice for the low end.
As I said before, UNTIL THE DAMNED THING SHIPS ALL THIS WHINING IS USELESS. Good lord. Everyone's acting like they know the facts... you know speculation, that's it.
I give up. Rational argument has no place here, this is just religious warfare. Carry on.
Comments
NO WAY IN HELL Apple would make such an ugly compromise in design unless it had a real revolutionary aspect to it.
And THAT is the truth !!!
You have seen the eMac haven't you?
Lemon Bon Bon
Hope on over 'smack talkers' and get educated with what the iMac will be competing with. Value. Power. A decent graphics card for half the price of a high end iMac.
Where's iLife? Geez it sure is nice to not have to worry about dealing with Apple Support. Glad I get to rid myself of the silly notion that people actually want ONE company to call if there is a problem. I'd much rather deal 10 different companies for support. Let's spread the wealth
You're seriously advocating that Aunt Polly go build her own box? What the hell are you smoking?
That banality of some people on these boards is astounding. Like I said Message Board Pros. They can whip up a Newegg or Pricewatch system quicker than a jiffy.
Don't we go through this every freakin' time with the same usual suspects? It's like these people haven't bought a computer in 3 freakin' years because they're in perpetual "I'm not happy with the lack of x feature I'm waiting for the next revision"
fuggit. You all can complain and sit on your asses. Next year I'm getting the Production Suite and learning some stuff and I don't give a damn about what PCs offer. I don't care if my GPU doesn't calc a gigatexel as fast as the whizbang card of the day.
Some of you should be ashamed. Mike Matas came on these boards as a teen who couldn't spell to save his life and now he has mikematas.com and delicious-monster.com at 18 running his own business!! He didn't bitch about marketshare or GPU cards. He just does what he needs to with the products he has at hand. I'm ashamed that it's taken me this long to get my arse in gear. Maybe some of you all should do the same and stop pining over PCs. They aren't going anywhere ..and neither is Apple.
Senior Member
Posts: 4019
Say, looks like you're twice as professional as I am.
Lemon Bon Bon
Next year I'm getting the Production Suite and learning some stuff and I don't give a damn about what PCs offer. I don't care if my GPU doesn't calc a gigatexel as fast as the whizbang card of the day.
Me too. I don't care what PCs have to offer. I care about what Macs have to offer. I'd love to be able to slot in a bto graphics card with stones instead of peanuts on it.
Your last comment quoted above seems in sharp contrast/at odds to your evil twin who pines for Apple Workstation supremacy...
Lemon Bon Bon
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
hmurchison
Senior Member
Posts: 4019
Say, looks like you're twice as professional as I am.
Lemon Bon Bon
Holy shiza I have no life! LOL.
Look you all know it's nothing personal but come on people.
Underperforming Mac hardware relative to PC standards is the norm. Apple will survive as long as they don't tank like they did in the late 90s.
I dread new Apple announcements because of these flame wars. It's easy to build a PC. If u want to game it's cheap. With Macintosh I want a stable platform that works and has excellent software. There's a time for brute strength and lesser stability and a time for lesser strength and improved stability. OSX offers me an enticing balance.
The iMac G5 might not be the wonderbox everyone is looking for but it will be functional.
hmurchison Professional Message Board poster since 1999
Some of you should be ashamed.
Well, that told me...
Nice emotive rant that has little to do with the thread title/fact I think Apple can improve their iMac mid and hi spec models for very little effort.
A little margin cut here...wholesale price leverage there...
I've illustrated my points.
And Apple is a whole lot bigger company than all of the retailers above, many of whom put together cheap gaming rigs with bang for buck using the very same commodity parts Apple has access to.
On a purely hardware basis...
What's different? The case. And?
(Crickets chirping...)
Lemon Bon Bon
...and Apple did lump their emac and iMac 2 sales together for many a quarter. Not the last. By then, the ghost was given up...
If the eMac sells 3 times the amount of the iMac 2...isn't it telling us all something?
Perhaps that edu and consumer customers want value. And the eMac, some credit to it..., is the closest consumer desktop to deliver. Stick a G5 1.6 in the Superdrive model and it blows the Generation 3 iMac out the water on price. Better still, lose the monitor, make the eMac headless, give me an alu 17 inch (hey, Samsung can do it...£400 quid and you get 19 inch LCD...) and I'll buy one and get some work done and play Doom 3 at 26 frames per second...
Me too. I don't care what PCs have to offer. I care about what Macs have to offer. I'd love to be able to slot in a bto graphics card with stones instead of peanuts on it.
Cool LBB there's money to be made.
Honestly Apple in 5 years will be a vastly different company. We can't let the recent success go to our heads. Apple has a market cap of just under $12 billion. Dell has a $87 billion m cap. Apple hasn't cracked 10 billion in revenue in years. Consumer Macs will remain boutique until Apple can rummage up another 5-6 billion in revenue. Apple's position is still too precarious. So I realize that I'm paying more and getting slightly less for a company that I believe in. I realize it won't always be this way.
Cheap Macs for everyone!!! Just not in 2004
On a purely hardware basis...
What's different? The case. And?
Case- Custom
Motherboard- Custom designed controllers and slots(airport)
PC- buy chipset from Intel,Via, SiS etc. Decide feature mix. Stick on motherboard. Drop in ATX case with cheesy fascia and cheap PS. Ship mobo "just" like everyone elses.
With Macintosh I want a stable platform that works and has excellent software.
You don't have to tell me!
I'm typing this on my wife's iBook @ 600 G3 with ATI 16 meg face sucker graphics...and 66 mhz bus...
I like the Mac advantage. I love OS se'X'. Bad ass machine.
The 1.6 gig XP Athlon sits next to me. No, folks, it just sits. I don't like turning it on.
I made my multimedia cd using this and not the athlon using flash, dreamweaver, photoshop etc. Saw too much of the bouncing beach ball at times though...
Lemon Bon Bon
hmurchison Professional Message Board poster since 1999
That's m'boy...
Lemon Bon Bon
PS. I'm still not letting you off with an mx52 card in any machine costing £1500-1700. Sucks more than windows dat does...
Hey...at least it will look sexy... :P
iMac 3...'lickable'....hmmm...'lickable'...
Cool LBB there's money to be made.
Honestly Apple in 5 years will be a vastly different company. We can't let the recent success go to our heads. Apple has a market cap of just under $12 billion. Dell has a $87 billion m cap. Apple hasn't cracked 10 billion in revenue in years. Consumer Macs will remain boutique until Apple can rummage up another 5-6 billion in revenue. Apple's position is still too precarious. So I realize that I'm paying more and getting slightly less for a company that I believe in. I realize it won't always be this way.
Cheap Macs for everyone!!! Just not in 2004
I hear what you're saying. I do think Steve is a strategist. And Apple's revenue and bank balance are increasing. I get it. I do. Honest. But.
But... there are better graphics cards that could be slotted into an iMac top end machine or mid-ranger for comparatively little extra.
At least use the Nvidia removeable laptop graphics slot tech'! C'mon, Apple...give me an olive branch...a sign...a ray of hope...a shaft...(of light...)
Why does it feel like Apple is going to move through older cards from ATI and Nvidia for the rest of the year? I'm starting to think that Apple has PCI Express next year coming and hasn't committed to buying any new cards until then. A calculated risk that could bit them in the arse and made worse by the iMac delay. Had the iMac shipped in June the market would be different as PCI Express cards weren't shipping in volume.
There's more at play here. I found it odd that the 5200 was used in the powermacs and now possibly in the iMacs. Could be last batch of AGP cards purchased by Apple.
Good lord Mac users have had enough transitions lately. Let us peacefully move to PCI Express and relax a bit.
The GeforceFX 5200 is CoreImage/Video capable, but because it is such a slow GPU, the benefits will probably be negligible over the CPU. It won't be a fun experience. Faster cores and memory and larger numbers of pipelines will matter.
TS is never wrong. It's time to dump some AAPL before the new iMac hits the fan.
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
You have seen the eMac haven't you?
Lemon Bon Bon
Whatyoutalkinabout, Lemon ? ;-)
The EMac looks like a monitor .
The Sony Vaio looks like a an ugly picture frame leaning against a toaster !
I hated Apple for forcing me to sell the IIvx for 3 months knowing the Centris 650 was out soon. I was hoping they would grow to respect their customers more over the years, but apparently they haven't.
An FX5200? Christ sakes. Screw Apple.
Hey, want a box in which you can add a PCI card or upgrade the video card? That will be $2k, please.
Its a freaking travesty. The sooner Apple's hardware business fails, the better. Then they'll be forced to survive on their strengths, damn fine software and not bloated margins on crap spec "consumer" models.
Originally posted by Kickaha
News flash. The only people who care about high-performance with their games are... gamers.
....LOL, do I need to dig up the posts from all the whiners who went on about Quartz Extreme, Core Image, and Core Video requirements?
So, still think Apple should use 3 year old tech in their video cards for $2000? Then we can get a fresh round of whining when Apple throws out the next GPU accessing software that your 1 year old $2000 picture frame can't use cuz Apple INTENTIONALLY stuck it in your ass.
That's total BS and you know it.
A mid range LCD will exhibit a high contrast ratio (600:1-700:1), and decent refresh (25-35ms), as well as Zero focus problems, perfect geometry, absolutely no moire, no flicker, wide viewing angles of 160 degrees or more, and all while giving off less than a tenth of the retina cooking radiation of a CRT.
The eMac's CRT is also a decidely average shadow mask based design with bad moire and middling refresh (it can't top 85hz at anything past XGA, relegating it to the res of the average 15" LCD, but without any of the benefits.)
The 999 eMac (apart from the superdrive) is a 500 dollar computer with a 300 dollar Apple logo on it.
All it took was a bit of a deeper probe into what i'd actually use a new Mac system. General net browsing, word processing, using the system as a digital hub, iLife, iPod and the stuff that goes with it.
The high end iMac will do all of that. If i want to experiment with video editing (which i do), it will do a perfectly good job of that for the level i'll be using it at.
So... cool.
Originally posted by Existence
For the record, Intel Extreme graphics aren't all that bad. They are comparable to the original Radeon/Radeon 7500 or GeForce2 MX in performance. There are reports of people breaking 20fps in Doom 3 with them.
The most important thing lots of people overlook is that you can upgrade to a better GPU if you want when you get a PC with Intel Extreme graphics. You will never, ever be able to upgrade the GPU on your iMac or eMac. You will be stuck with that slow GPU for the life of the machine.
Originally posted by mooseman
....LOL, do I need to dig up the posts from all the whiners who went on about Quartz Extreme, Core Image, and Core Video requirements?
So, still think Apple should use 3 year old tech in their video cards for $2000? Then we can get a fresh round of whining when Apple throws out the next GPU accessing software that your 1 year old $2000 picture frame can't use cuz Apple INTENTIONALLY stuck it in your ass.
Ahhhhh... so you're intimately experienced with the hardware requirements of CoreImage? You know for a fact that CI will have problems on this? Do share with us your in-depth experience, I'm sure we'd be thrilled to hear it. Newsflash: realtime is as fast as it gets. Added power is wasted on CI.
The 5200 will *CONTINUE* to be a fine choice for the low end.
As I said before, UNTIL THE DAMNED THING SHIPS ALL THIS WHINING IS USELESS. Good lord. Everyone's acting like they know the facts... you know speculation, that's it.
I give up. Rational argument has no place here, this is just religious warfare. Carry on.