When I ordered my G5 Power Mac, I wanted to get Bluetooth, but G5 Power Mac orders were already terribly backed up, and ANY build-to-order option would have made the delay much worse, so I skipped it.
Not necessarily true. I ordered my dual-2.5 with Bluetooth, extra RAM and no modem and it shipped in what was apparently the first batch. It arrived August 10.
I think as long as the parts are available (unlike, say, certain video cards), your order goes to the production line just like any other.
Soldering in a new GPU while pretty much impossible would also require that the replacement be pin compatible.
*BUT*
This does raise the possibility of trading in your logic board on an updated one later on and sending yours back as a core. I know some of the processor upgrades in the past worked on this principle. However the cost could be pretty ugly.
On the note of 95% of PCs having all these parts user upgradeable I challenge the ease you can do it on many desktops. I have a Dell here at work that needs to be almost gutted to reach the RAM slots. I have personally dealt with HP and Compaq towers too and they can be a real test of patience. Replace the motherboard? That involves completely tearing apart the case. It is very obvious that many (not all but many) PC towers are not designed with the ease of upgrade that the new iMac offers.
Now if in a future rev. if there were some sort of socket for the GPU that could be interesting...
We haven't gotten all the details about the iMac's logic board yet. I can't wait for someone to take one apart and see how Apple put it together.
One thing is that they may have used a daughtercard for the GPU. I believe current PowerBooks are designed like this. If the GPU were placed on a daughterboard then upgrade would be possible. The problem is that Apple would likely have to engineer any replacements.
Still, the iMac is a step in the right direction. It was far more difficult to get to the guts of the first two iterations of this consumer end machine. The fact that Apple has made it pretty easy to get to just about everything on the iMac (including the LCD) tells me that Apple is finally listening to many of us fussing about upgradeability.
And let's face it, an AIO that is very upgradeable would be a first, I believe. The way the back slides right off on this thing is very cool. Three screws and the back is off. While most PCs I build only have one screw, they don't have the advanced design of the iMac. It appears Apple has not only built a machine that is very small and user friendly; it has also built a machine that users can work on themselves - the first time in years that Apple has allowed this on the consumer line.
I have a Dell here at work that needs to be almost gutted to reach the RAM slots.
To upgrade my pithy little Vaio tower, I had to pray I didn't damage any parts as the RAM slots were on the other end of the box. Fortunately, my small wrists allowed me to install another DIMM.
A fully upgradable iMac, even one that requires a full logic board upgrade for a better GPU, is a step in the right direction. I would not be surprised if Apple tries to push this feature more in the coming months and if they encourage customers to take their iMacs to an Apple Store for an approved upgrade.
You'll probably find the the iMac will be like a car. Its user-servicable, but most users would rather take it to the specialist. But at least the option is there. Also user-serviceable also makes it easier for the specialist to do his/her job.
You'll probably find the the iMac will be like a car. Its user-servicable, but most users would rather take it to the specialist. But at least the option is there. Also user-serviceable also makes it easier for the specialist to do his/her job.
The diagram points out the G5's location. Is it on a daughtercard inside the machine or soldered to the loginc board? The daughtercard scenario would be nice for processor upgrades. Now if they can socket the video...
The diagram points out the G5's location. Is it on a daughtercard inside the machine or soldered to the loginc board? The daughtercard scenario would be nice for processor upgrades. Now if they can socket the video...
To upgrade my pithy little Vaio tower, I had to pray I didn't damage any parts as the RAM slots were on the other end of the box. Fortunately, my small wrists allowed me to install another DIMM.
A fully upgradable iMac, even one that requires a full logic board upgrade for a better GPU, is a step in the right direction. I would not be surprised if Apple tries to push this feature more in the coming months and if they encourage customers to take their iMacs to an Apple Store for an approved upgrade.
**********************************
I think one reason for upgradeability is that Apple may want to spend more of their time on the iPod / ITMS project and less on the iMac.
It might be simpler for Apple to release updates for boards, drives, etc. than
to re-engineer a new model from scratch.
For me, this would be a great thing - I want to get an excellent GPU, a soon-to-be TB HDD, replace the lamp for the LCD when it dies.
Did anyone in Paris notice whether the screen has a hard plastic cover on it, like some Apple Cinema displays ? I hope not. I want the low-glare screen that flairs around your finger tip when you touch it : these screens can be massaged to fix most stuck pixels My 15" original FP iMac had one and I fixed it permanently ( 1.5 years since it last appeared !
Wouldn't they have used it as a selling point. I say it is NOT upgradable or won't ever be because of either availability of daughtercards or technical peculiarities.
You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves here.
This article in no way implies that Apple or anyone else will be offering upgrades of either the motherboard or the GPU (which is, of course, integrated into the motherboard).
This article just means that if one of these parts breaks on your new iMac, you can get a replacement part from AppleCare and install it yourself. The new design means that if your Superdrive or modem or power supply dies, you don't have to ship the whole iMac back to Apple to get it fixed. Apple can just FedEx you a new part.
This doesn't mean that upgrades are in the offing, but it does imply two important things for Apple.
The because of its design, the G4 iMac was extremely complicated and expensive to manufacture and service. This limited Apple's profit margin on the G4 iMac and limited Apple's ability to lower the prices of the G4 iMac.
The G5 iMac has a much simpler design and should prove much cheaper to manufacture. User replaceable parts mean that Apple can save money on servicing the new G5 iMacs. Apple doesn't have to pay to ship machines back and forth to the repair depot and pay expensive techs to swap out broken parts.
This should mean that the G5 iMacs will be much more profitable for Apple, and Apple will have much more freedom to lower prices over time.
I dont like how the Power Supply is built onto the motherboard. If one of those caps go, an enormously expensive mthoerboard would need to be replaced. Unless someone had godlike soldering skills and nerves of steel.
The GPU is integrated onto the motherboard? Blah. Even if the iMac had an AGP slot at an angle would a video card even fit in there?
You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves here.
-------------------------
True , but we are cooking up a storm too are we not?
I think Apple would be doing a great thing if it allowed the extreme
ones among us to go ahead and upgrade etc.
I have never really understood what Apple is afraid of regarding an upgradeable iMac. I am not a business expert.
Certainly , up-grading a GPU or HD isn't going to bring all the industrial PRO users down to the iMac level : the multi-processor capabilities and sheer physical size of the towers will always eclipse the iMac.
And I , for one, will never be "forced" to buy a tower by having my iMacs crippled, simply because I have a very strong aesthetic preference for the
all-in-one and for the look of the Ive designs.
I suspect that the two groups of Apple buyers are a lot more separate than we might think : like people who drive SUV's and those who drive Beetles.
I want my G5 iMac to handle MAYA renders without choking. But if it takes
fully twice as long as a tower for the CPU to process my project --- I've got the time ( no boss driving me to " PRODUCE !!!!" ). As long as the GPU can render that project well, for my enjoyment, I am fine. This hypothetical factor of two , by itself , is enough to keep the real PRO's in their towers. And if they make enough money to buy their kids an iMac or twelve ... more power to them. But, if I can't use Core Video or MAYA because Apple cripples my GPU way, way down .... do you think this will make money appear in my pocket to move to a tower ? And that I won't miss the beauty of the iMac ( all due respect to the towers' own elegance ) ??? -- of course not !
So the market may be like a membrane that allows PRO's to toy with iMacs, but does not pump the home users and pro-sumers up to the towers.
An iMac can have different degrees of freedom along which a pro-sumer can experiment than those of the PRO. For example, we may want to play with TV receivers, home surveillance, the aesthetics of the case, sound cards, home theatre --- you know : the "Digital Life" stuff. Certainly there is plenty of room for Apple to produce such modules and mods for us. Yet , the PRO tower users would have little use for these. This schism among us is often revealed in angry exchanges in the bulletin boards. But the schism may actually be an energizing polarity that can make good money for Apple and
happy pro-sumer experiences.
LET'S TRY TO LIST THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THESE GROUPS in terms of issues held to be of paramount importance,
This article just means that if one of these parts breaks on your new iMac, you can get a replacement part from AppleCare and install it yourself. The new design means that if your Superdrive or modem or power supply dies, you don't have to ship the whole iMac back to Apple to get it fixed. Apple can just FedEx you a new part.
Like many of you guys here on this forum was hyped up on the proposed Imac g5 upgradability bandwagon. How fantastic would it be to have an Imac where you could update the logic board on whim instead of having to purchase a whole new system, as seems to be the norm in Imac planning these days.
But alas, Mojo has a point here. If the stated ability to replace the internal organs of the Imac (primarily the logic board) ment that the Imac's could be Upgraded over time to include new proccessors, graphics cards and what not... then I think that would have been a major selling point in the keynote and/or further advertising.... but it seems to be nothing more then a sidenote. As Mojo so aptly pointed out, the reason behind this is most probably none other then to reduce servicing costs.
... upsetting... but I'm still ordering one for good measure
its a beautiful system engineering wise, and supplies a measure of portability which in regards to desktop computers is unmatched...
Another argument is that it was only a "sidenote" because the simple reality is that most people who purchase computers never upgrade them; so Apple has no particular reason to highlight the issue. It would certainly never appear in advertising. It is also a non-issue, because there have been no upgrades to this just-released computer.
The fact that Apple has gone to all the trouble to make the logic board user-removable would seem to indicate that they have larger plans for the future. Or, at least, this is what we can hope!
Mojo the Monkey has a valid point, of course, since the change would reduce servicing costs.
A person buys an iMac G5 and three year AppleCare.
Two and a half years down the road the mobo "mysteriously" "fails".
Apple, of course has since released new revisions with faster CPUs and GPUs, and stopped producing the now snail slow 1.6GHz models - IBM doesn't even make the chips, and the 5200fx is ancient history.
Person gets a fast new machine.
Apple would be silly to not provide an avenue for honest people to upgrade the mobo.
Comments
Originally posted by shetline
When I ordered my G5 Power Mac, I wanted to get Bluetooth, but G5 Power Mac orders were already terribly backed up, and ANY build-to-order option would have made the delay much worse, so I skipped it.
Not necessarily true. I ordered my dual-2.5 with Bluetooth, extra RAM and no modem and it shipped in what was apparently the first batch. It arrived August 10.
I think as long as the parts are available (unlike, say, certain video cards), your order goes to the production line just like any other.
*BUT*
This does raise the possibility of trading in your logic board on an updated one later on and sending yours back as a core. I know some of the processor upgrades in the past worked on this principle. However the cost could be pretty ugly.
On the note of 95% of PCs having all these parts user upgradeable I challenge the ease you can do it on many desktops. I have a Dell here at work that needs to be almost gutted to reach the RAM slots. I have personally dealt with HP and Compaq towers too and they can be a real test of patience. Replace the motherboard? That involves completely tearing apart the case. It is very obvious that many (not all but many) PC towers are not designed with the ease of upgrade that the new iMac offers.
Now if in a future rev. if there were some sort of socket for the GPU that could be interesting...
One thing is that they may have used a daughtercard for the GPU. I believe current PowerBooks are designed like this. If the GPU were placed on a daughterboard then upgrade would be possible. The problem is that Apple would likely have to engineer any replacements.
Still, the iMac is a step in the right direction. It was far more difficult to get to the guts of the first two iterations of this consumer end machine. The fact that Apple has made it pretty easy to get to just about everything on the iMac (including the LCD) tells me that Apple is finally listening to many of us fussing about upgradeability.
And let's face it, an AIO that is very upgradeable would be a first, I believe. The way the back slides right off on this thing is very cool. Three screws and the back is off. While most PCs I build only have one screw, they don't have the advanced design of the iMac. It appears Apple has not only built a machine that is very small and user friendly; it has also built a machine that users can work on themselves - the first time in years that Apple has allowed this on the consumer line.
I have a Dell here at work that needs to be almost gutted to reach the RAM slots.
To upgrade my pithy little Vaio tower, I had to pray I didn't damage any parts as the RAM slots were on the other end of the box. Fortunately, my small wrists allowed me to install another DIMM.
A fully upgradable iMac, even one that requires a full logic board upgrade for a better GPU, is a step in the right direction. I would not be surprised if Apple tries to push this feature more in the coming months and if they encourage customers to take their iMacs to an Apple Store for an approved upgrade.
Originally posted by ajmas
You'll probably find the the iMac will be like a car. Its user-servicable, but most users would rather take it to the specialist. But at least the option is there. Also user-serviceable also makes it easier for the specialist to do his/her job.
The diagram points out the G5's location. Is it on a daughtercard inside the machine or soldered to the loginc board? The daughtercard scenario would be nice for processor upgrades. Now if they can socket the video...
Originally posted by Bancho
The diagram points out the G5's location. Is it on a daughtercard inside the machine or soldered to the loginc board? The daughtercard scenario would be nice for processor upgrades. Now if they can socket the video...
what diagram? where?
Originally posted by ajmas
what diagram? where?
here:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=638
Originally posted by Bancho
Originally posted by ajmas
what diagram? where?
here:
http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=638
One may also compare the diagram with the PR photo of the iMac G5's interior.
Originally posted by Squirrel_Monkey
To upgrade my pithy little Vaio tower, I had to pray I didn't damage any parts as the RAM slots were on the other end of the box. Fortunately, my small wrists allowed me to install another DIMM.
A fully upgradable iMac, even one that requires a full logic board upgrade for a better GPU, is a step in the right direction. I would not be surprised if Apple tries to push this feature more in the coming months and if they encourage customers to take their iMacs to an Apple Store for an approved upgrade.
**********************************
I think one reason for upgradeability is that Apple may want to spend more of their time on the iPod / ITMS project and less on the iMac.
It might be simpler for Apple to release updates for boards, drives, etc. than
to re-engineer a new model from scratch.
For me, this would be a great thing - I want to get an excellent GPU, a soon-to-be TB HDD, replace the lamp for the LCD when it dies.
Did anyone in Paris notice whether the screen has a hard plastic cover on it, like some Apple Cinema displays ? I hope not. I want the low-glare screen that flairs around your finger tip when you touch it : these screens can be massaged to fix most stuck pixels
"Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, NVIDIA graphics processor, and so forth)"
So my take is that it could be an on board daughter card that can be upgraded over time.
People are complaining about the GPU. But if they can one day upgrade it for a better one, this should seem like a win-win situation.
Mike
This article in no way implies that Apple or anyone else will be offering upgrades of either the motherboard or the GPU (which is, of course, integrated into the motherboard).
This article just means that if one of these parts breaks on your new iMac, you can get a replacement part from AppleCare and install it yourself. The new design means that if your Superdrive or modem or power supply dies, you don't have to ship the whole iMac back to Apple to get it fixed. Apple can just FedEx you a new part.
This doesn't mean that upgrades are in the offing, but it does imply two important things for Apple.
The because of its design, the G4 iMac was extremely complicated and expensive to manufacture and service. This limited Apple's profit margin on the G4 iMac and limited Apple's ability to lower the prices of the G4 iMac.
The G5 iMac has a much simpler design and should prove much cheaper to manufacture. User replaceable parts mean that Apple can save money on servicing the new G5 iMacs. Apple doesn't have to pay to ship machines back and forth to the repair depot and pay expensive techs to swap out broken parts.
This should mean that the G5 iMacs will be much more profitable for Apple, and Apple will have much more freedom to lower prices over time.
The GPU is integrated onto the motherboard? Blah. Even if the iMac had an AGP slot at an angle would a video card even fit in there?
Originally posted by Mojo the Monkey
You guys are getting way ahead of yourselves here.
-------------------------
True , but we are cooking up a storm too are we not?
I think Apple would be doing a great thing if it allowed the extreme
ones among us to go ahead and upgrade etc.
I have never really understood what Apple is afraid of regarding an upgradeable iMac. I am not a business expert.
Certainly , up-grading a GPU or HD isn't going to bring all the industrial PRO users down to the iMac level : the multi-processor capabilities and sheer physical size of the towers will always eclipse the iMac.
And I , for one, will never be "forced" to buy a tower by having my iMacs crippled, simply because I have a very strong aesthetic preference for the
all-in-one and for the look of the Ive designs.
I suspect that the two groups of Apple buyers are a lot more separate than we might think : like people who drive SUV's and those who drive Beetles.
I want my G5 iMac to handle MAYA renders without choking. But if it takes
fully twice as long as a tower for the CPU to process my project --- I've got the time ( no boss driving me to " PRODUCE !!!!" ). As long as the GPU can render that project well, for my enjoyment, I am fine. This hypothetical factor of two , by itself , is enough to keep the real PRO's in their towers. And if they make enough money to buy their kids an iMac or twelve ... more power to them. But, if I can't use Core Video or MAYA because Apple cripples my GPU way, way down .... do you think this will make money appear in my pocket to move to a tower ? And that I won't miss the beauty of the iMac ( all due respect to the towers' own elegance ) ??? -- of course not !
So the market may be like a membrane that allows PRO's to toy with iMacs, but does not pump the home users and pro-sumers up to the towers.
An iMac can have different degrees of freedom along which a pro-sumer can experiment than those of the PRO. For example, we may want to play with TV receivers, home surveillance, the aesthetics of the case, sound cards, home theatre --- you know : the "Digital Life" stuff. Certainly there is plenty of room for Apple to produce such modules and mods for us. Yet , the PRO tower users would have little use for these. This schism among us is often revealed in angry exchanges in the bulletin boards. But the schism may actually be an energizing polarity that can make good money for Apple and
happy pro-sumer experiences.
LET'S TRY TO LIST THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THESE GROUPS in terms of issues held to be of paramount importance,
PRO USER----------prosumer-------recreational
fastest CPU&GPU.......CPUmoderate speed....FAST GPU mostly
bad pixels OK.............bad pixels awful.......... not really awful
security paramount......moderately secure..........heh, heh,..
networking BIG...........just to avoid wires........LAN BIG
huge HDD banks.........just so I can do video.......moderate ?
aesthetics minimal.......much more important...long as it's evil
portability minimal......moderate short range......high
slimmer not crucial...quite desireable..moderately for mobility
Maybe you disagree with these or have others to add.
---gooddog
Thanks, Mike
This article just means that if one of these parts breaks on your new iMac, you can get a replacement part from AppleCare and install it yourself. The new design means that if your Superdrive or modem or power supply dies, you don't have to ship the whole iMac back to Apple to get it fixed. Apple can just FedEx you a new part.
Like many of you guys here on this forum was hyped up on the proposed Imac g5 upgradability bandwagon. How fantastic would it be to have an Imac where you could update the logic board on whim instead of having to purchase a whole new system, as seems to be the norm in Imac planning these days.
But alas, Mojo has a point here. If the stated ability to replace the internal organs of the Imac (primarily the logic board) ment that the Imac's could be Upgraded over time to include new proccessors, graphics cards and what not... then I think that would have been a major selling point in the keynote and/or further advertising.... but it seems to be nothing more then a sidenote. As Mojo so aptly pointed out, the reason behind this is most probably none other then to reduce servicing costs.
... upsetting... but I'm still ordering one for good measure
its a beautiful system engineering wise, and supplies a measure of portability which in regards to desktop computers is unmatched...
The fact that Apple has gone to all the trouble to make the logic board user-removable would seem to indicate that they have larger plans for the future. Or, at least, this is what we can hope!
Mojo the Monkey has a valid point, of course, since the change would reduce servicing costs.
We won't know for sure for many months!
A person buys an iMac G5 and three year AppleCare.
Two and a half years down the road the mobo "mysteriously" "fails".
Apple, of course has since released new revisions with faster CPUs and GPUs, and stopped producing the now snail slow 1.6GHz models - IBM doesn't even make the chips, and the 5200fx is ancient history.
Person gets a fast new machine.
Apple would be silly to not provide an avenue for honest people to upgrade the mobo.
- Jasen.