Essentially these provide the same functionality. Let the user decide! Let this be an option!
Tabs, Sidebars and Bookmarks
Yesterday I said that Mail should get Tabs. But now I see that we could add Tabs, Sidebars and Bookmarks in most applications. Like Tabs in Finder, Mail and iTunes...
Just putting ideas out there...
Cheers Daniel
But Mail doesn't need tabs...nor does the Finder and nor does iTunes.
You're essentially creating a solution in search of a problem.
Well.. I have exactly zero friends on MSN and I live in the world's densest MSN country, Sweden. All my friends are using iChat or ICQ.. but that's me.
I'm pretty sure they hired Justin into a QA position and that Proteus uses Libgaim for jabber support as opposed to something created by Justin that could be leveraged by Apple...
Others have seen the solution to this problem for quite a while now. Gaim has had tabbed IM for a very long time, and Adium as well on the mac side.
After using tabbed IM for so long I don't understand how you guys can live without it in iChat. I wonder if Apple will let you drag to re-order tabs and pull them off into separate windows like you can in Adium...
The problem with your tabs Adam is that they're an ugly hack. While ok (but not perfect) in browser windows where the window actually has to be large horizontally, chat windows tend to be small horizontally and larger vertically (this allows people to see a history of short text messages). I don't think Adium is very usable beyond 3 or 4 tabbed conversations with the small horizontal size footprint I want.
But frankly, I can't even find use for tabs in an IM at all since I have a life other than chatting with multiple people simultaneously on the internet,
The problem with your tabs Adam is that they're an ugly hack.
I think you're conflating "ugly hack" and "not perfect for my purposes." Your discussion below may have something to do with ugliness but has nothing to do with ugly 'hackiness'.
Quote:
While ok (but not perfect) in browser windows where the window actually has to be large horizontally, chat windows tend to be small horizontally and larger vertically (this allows people to see a history of short text messages). I don't think Adium is very usable beyond 3 or 4 tabbed conversations with the small horizontal size footprint I want.
But a drawer increases the horizontal footprint significantly.
Quote:
But frankly, I can't even find use for tabs in an IM at all since I have a life other than chatting with multiple people simultaneously on the internet,
...which includes discussing the use of tabs in an IM on an AppleInsider forum with multiple people simultaneously on the internet. Cute.
The version of Apple's iChat messaging software that will ship with Mac OS X Tiger will likely offer tabbed messaging in addition to iTunes tie-ins.
I already have the ability to show itunes status/songs in ichat thanks to a 3rd party solution, but hallelujah to tabbed messages! Having a few chats at once takes up so much precious screen real estate.
I already have the ability to show itunes status/songs in ichat thanks to a 3rd party solution, but hallelujah to tabbed messages! Having a few chats at once takes up so much precious screen real estate.
Here's probably a stupid question. Why the hell would I care what song someone is listening to on iTunes while I'm chatting with them? And why in the world would someone care that I'm listening to my "Carpenter's greatest hits" CD while chatting? Can you listen to the music? Does the file get transmitted too?
Tabs for browsing and tabs for chatting are not the same thing, for me.
I like browsing with tabs, it's efficient, but having multiple chats in the same window separated by tabs is borderline dangerous.
I need the spatial separation of (random examples) work chat on left, friends chat on the right, wife chat in the middle of the screen.
It's dangerous to get the recipients confused, something that is inevitable in a tabbed interface.
Another thing is that is going to be next to useless in real world use, since you *want* to be able to see all the chats simultaneously (unless you're doing cybersex or jobsearch at work I suppose ).
You can't usually read 4 web pages at once, nor are they changing constantly, so tabs make sense for the web, but chats change every few seconds and you *need* to scan around the screen to keep up to speed.
Now, don't misconstrue this as me saying iChat shouldn't have the *option* of tabs. It should. Many/most applications should.
Here's probably a stupid question. Why the hell would I care what song someone is listening to on iTunes while I'm chatting with them? And why in the world would someone care that I'm listening to my "Carpenter's greatest hits" CD while chatting? Can you listen to the music? Does the file get transmitted too?
to give you an oblique answer to this question, keep in mind one of the utilities available that does this now with ichat is called "status symbol". hint, hint.
...which includes discussing the use of tabs in an IM on an AppleInsider forum with multiple people simultaneously on the internet. Cute.
um, there's a slight difference between the two. for example, posting here can be at your own pace, but chatting requires you to be real-time attentive to people constantly sending you IM's. the few times i have tried to have multi-user chats at work, it was all i could do to keep up with the various threads at once simultaneously. it's like having completely different conversations at a dinner party, with people standing on either side of you... and you don't talk, you type.
like i said, bit of a difference between that and here.
My self and my partners use ichat (AIM) on a daily basis to do buisness. Having the ability to group all of my partners and freelances together in a group would be a nice feature, this would limit me to 1 chat window as opposed to the 4 to 6 that I may have up at a time. To me this would be a PRO.
On the other hand if it is not implemeted right it would be a nightmare. I think if you are given the option of having multiple users say up to 5 in one chat window then it could work nicely. You would still need to have the ability to have multiple windows as seperate groups. ie. work, family, friends, etc...
This would be ideal for me, but alas I am only one user out of millions that apple tries to please each OS release.
Apple will do it right they always do, so whay don't we all wait and see before we pass judgement if it would be ugly, confusing etc....
It's dangerous to get the recipients confused, something that is inevitable in a tabbed interface.
Sure, people can say it's PEBCAK, but what you say entirely true. It's unfortunately happened to me...and not just any ol' conversation between two people...it happened to be a mix up when I was talking to my ex-girlfriend and my new girlfriend simultaneously. It's silly and evands and adam may laugh but it's pretty fucking serious if you ask me. Switching back and forth between tabs between conversations can lead to disastrous situations. The possibility of misclicks also happen when you have to target small tabs.
I like the idea of tabs. I have very limited screen real-estate on my 12" PBook and expose makes them too small to easily see who replied and who didn't.
The only problem I see with tabs is you wouldn't know who replied unless there was some form of indicator such as a little icon that appears on the tab or something. It's fairly simple but it need to be done otherwise I don't think it would be of much use. Also it would be great for keyboard short cuts to be put in for switching between tabs. Something like Shift-1, Shift-2, etc. That alone would be faster than going between windows as it currently exists. The less I have to use the mouse the happier and faster I am.
Yes, I noticed that too, and thought it was strange. iChat will support Jabber, so maybe that's the difference? Please bring MSN to iChat... I like iChat integration much better than having to launch a separate app just for MSN users.
MSN support is already there. (in Tiger)
For all those who don't know yet: When you log in with a Jabber account, you can automatically be connected to all your other services (MSN, AIM). With just one password. All your other accounts are stored on the server.
Jabber servers have gateways to lots of other protocols (most of them support AIM, ICQ, MSN, IRC, Yahoo).
Jabber is an open and free protocol and it will probably become the only official IM standard. Until now this freeness has been a bit of a problem for Jabber's adoption: the public Jabber servers don't form one big network (altough most of them interconnect) because they're not backed by commercial companies.
I think that Apple should switch 100% to Jabber. There are also rumors of Google going Jabber.
kim kap sol: It was that or pay attention to my OOP professor who was rambling... Rereading my post, it sounds a bit rude... sorry if it came across that way; I'm exhausted.
averagezen: Adium has an option to automatically separate tabs into their own windows based on the contacts' groups; you can always drag tabs into new windows, too.
jherrling: Adium's tab implementation allows switching with command-1,command-2, and so on.
Sure, people can say it's PEBCAK, but what you say entirely true. It's unfortunately happened to me...and not just any ol' conversation between two people...it happened to be a mix up when I was talking to my ex-girlfriend and my new girlfriend simultaneously. It's silly and evands and adam may laugh but it's pretty fucking serious if you ask me. Switching back and forth between tabs between conversations can lead to disastrous situations. The possibility of misclicks also happen when you have to target small tabs.
If we don't factor in human foibles/habits/realities into human interface design, then we aren't doing our job.
Any number of perfectly valid, non-silly situations could occur by mixing up which chat you are in. The UI should bend over backwards to reduce this potentiality.
Now, again, mistakes can be made even in separate windows, so it's not a total anti-tab thing with me. I like tabs. But we need to think about using them just *anywhere*.
I don't doubt there are better ways to do this (manage multiple chats safely), I hope Apple can find them.
Another potential nightmare is the drag and drop in iChat. You can accidentally drop a file to someone and then it is a race to cancel before the other person accepts. The "drop" should not be equivalent to a "send" command. You should have a chance to mull it over one last time and click a Send button. (I can't test right now perhaps I'm misremembering that feature).
Anyway, yeah the user has to be ultimately responsible, no argument. I just think that chatting is inherently more risky or problematic. This is not merely a problem of showing multiple windows in tabbed interface. Chats are profoundly different than spreadsheets or webpages.
Let's not clamor for tabs for chats until it is really well thought out - we might miss out on a better way to do it.
Comments
Originally posted by dahacouk
Tabs or Sidebar?
Essentially these provide the same functionality. Let the user decide! Let this be an option!
Tabs, Sidebars and Bookmarks
Yesterday I said that Mail should get Tabs. But now I see that we could add Tabs, Sidebars and Bookmarks in most applications. Like Tabs in Finder, Mail and iTunes...
Just putting ideas out there...
Cheers Daniel
But Mail doesn't need tabs...nor does the Finder and nor does iTunes.
You're essentially creating a solution in search of a problem.
Originally posted by kim kap sol
But Mail doesn't need tabs...nor does the Finder and nor does iTunes.
I would love for Finder, Mail and iTunes to get tabs, especially since we will get smart folder funcionality in all these applications.
oh well, maybe apple will surprise me. i just wish they would license the msn protocol, because 85% of my friends are on msn messenger. [/B]
Ditto
Originally posted by tink
Ditto
Well.. I have exactly zero friends on MSN and I live in the world's densest MSN country, Sweden. All my friends are using iChat or ICQ.. but that's me.
Originally posted by resimada
I'm pretty sure they hired Justin into a QA position and that Proteus uses Libgaim for jabber support as opposed to something created by Justin that could be leveraged by Apple...
Others have seen the solution to this problem for quite a while now. Gaim has had tabbed IM for a very long time, and Adium as well on the mac side.
After using tabbed IM for so long I don't understand how you guys can live without it in iChat. I wonder if Apple will let you drag to re-order tabs and pull them off into separate windows like you can in Adium...
The problem with your tabs Adam is that they're an ugly hack. While ok (but not perfect) in browser windows where the window actually has to be large horizontally, chat windows tend to be small horizontally and larger vertically (this allows people to see a history of short text messages). I don't think Adium is very usable beyond 3 or 4 tabbed conversations with the small horizontal size footprint I want.
But frankly, I can't even find use for tabs in an IM at all since I have a life other than chatting with multiple people simultaneously on the internet,
Originally posted by kim kap sol
The problem with your tabs Adam is that they're an ugly hack.
I think you're conflating "ugly hack" and "not perfect for my purposes." Your discussion below may have something to do with ugliness but has nothing to do with ugly 'hackiness'.
While ok (but not perfect) in browser windows where the window actually has to be large horizontally, chat windows tend to be small horizontally and larger vertically (this allows people to see a history of short text messages). I don't think Adium is very usable beyond 3 or 4 tabbed conversations with the small horizontal size footprint I want.
But a drawer increases the horizontal footprint significantly.
But frankly, I can't even find use for tabs in an IM at all since I have a life other than chatting with multiple people simultaneously on the internet,
...which includes discussing the use of tabs in an IM on an AppleInsider forum with multiple people simultaneously on the internet. Cute.
Originally posted by AppleInsider
The version of Apple's iChat messaging software that will ship with Mac OS X Tiger will likely offer tabbed messaging in addition to iTunes tie-ins.
I already have the ability to show itunes status/songs in ichat thanks to a 3rd party solution, but hallelujah to tabbed messages! Having a few chats at once takes up so much precious screen real estate.
Originally posted by deepkid
I already have the ability to show itunes status/songs in ichat thanks to a 3rd party solution, but hallelujah to tabbed messages! Having a few chats at once takes up so much precious screen real estate.
Here's probably a stupid question. Why the hell would I care what song someone is listening to on iTunes while I'm chatting with them? And why in the world would someone care that I'm listening to my "Carpenter's greatest hits" CD while chatting? Can you listen to the music? Does the file get transmitted too?
I like browsing with tabs, it's efficient, but having multiple chats in the same window separated by tabs is borderline dangerous.
I need the spatial separation of (random examples) work chat on left, friends chat on the right, wife chat in the middle of the screen.
It's dangerous to get the recipients confused, something that is inevitable in a tabbed interface.
Another thing is that is going to be next to useless in real world use, since you *want* to be able to see all the chats simultaneously (unless you're doing cybersex or jobsearch at work I suppose
You can't usually read 4 web pages at once, nor are they changing constantly, so tabs make sense for the web, but chats change every few seconds and you *need* to scan around the screen to keep up to speed.
Now, don't misconstrue this as me saying iChat shouldn't have the *option* of tabs. It should. Many/most applications should.
Originally posted by Louzer
Here's probably a stupid question. Why the hell would I care what song someone is listening to on iTunes while I'm chatting with them? And why in the world would someone care that I'm listening to my "Carpenter's greatest hits" CD while chatting? Can you listen to the music? Does the file get transmitted too?
to give you an oblique answer to this question, keep in mind one of the utilities available that does this now with ichat is called "status symbol". hint, hint.
Originally posted by evands
...which includes discussing the use of tabs in an IM on an AppleInsider forum with multiple people simultaneously on the internet. Cute.
um, there's a slight difference between the two. for example, posting here can be at your own pace, but chatting requires you to be real-time attentive to people constantly sending you IM's. the few times i have tried to have multi-user chats at work, it was all i could do to keep up with the various threads at once simultaneously. it's like having completely different conversations at a dinner party, with people standing on either side of you... and you don't talk, you type.
like i said, bit of a difference between that and here.
My self and my partners use ichat (AIM) on a daily basis to do buisness. Having the ability to group all of my partners and freelances together in a group would be a nice feature, this would limit me to 1 chat window as opposed to the 4 to 6 that I may have up at a time. To me this would be a PRO.
On the other hand if it is not implemeted right it would be a nightmare. I think if you are given the option of having multiple users say up to 5 in one chat window then it could work nicely. You would still need to have the ability to have multiple windows as seperate groups. ie. work, family, friends, etc...
This would be ideal for me, but alas I am only one user out of millions that apple tries to please each OS release.
Apple will do it right they always do, so whay don't we all wait and see before we pass judgement if it would be ugly, confusing etc....
my 2 cents
zen
Originally posted by evands
...which includes discussing the use of tabs in an IM on an AppleInsider forum with multiple people simultaneously on the internet. Cute. [/B]
I'll tell you what's cute: discussing with another one of the Adium developers who took the time to register just to get his 2 cents in.
Originally posted by johnq
It's dangerous to get the recipients confused, something that is inevitable in a tabbed interface.
Sure, people can say it's PEBCAK, but what you say entirely true. It's unfortunately happened to me...and not just any ol' conversation between two people...it happened to be a mix up when I was talking to my ex-girlfriend and my new girlfriend simultaneously. It's silly and evands and adam may laugh but it's pretty fucking serious if you ask me. Switching back and forth between tabs between conversations can lead to disastrous situations. The possibility of misclicks also happen when you have to target small tabs.
The only problem I see with tabs is you wouldn't know who replied unless there was some form of indicator such as a little icon that appears on the tab or something. It's fairly simple but it need to be done otherwise I don't think it would be of much use. Also it would be great for keyboard short cuts to be put in for switching between tabs. Something like Shift-1, Shift-2, etc. That alone would be faster than going between windows as it currently exists. The less I have to use the mouse the happier and faster I am.
Originally posted by coolfactor
Yes, I noticed that too, and thought it was strange. iChat will support Jabber, so maybe that's the difference? Please bring MSN to iChat... I like iChat integration much better than having to launch a separate app just for MSN users.
MSN support is already there. (in Tiger)
For all those who don't know yet: When you log in with a Jabber account, you can automatically be connected to all your other services (MSN, AIM). With just one password. All your other accounts are stored on the server.
Jabber servers have gateways to lots of other protocols (most of them support AIM, ICQ, MSN, IRC, Yahoo).
Jabber is an open and free protocol and it will probably become the only official IM standard. Until now this freeness has been a bit of a problem for Jabber's adoption: the public Jabber servers don't form one big network (altough most of them interconnect) because they're not backed by commercial companies.
I think that Apple should switch 100% to Jabber. There are also rumors of Google going Jabber.
averagezen: Adium has an option to automatically separate tabs into their own windows based on the contacts' groups; you can always drag tabs into new windows, too.
jherrling: Adium's tab implementation allows switching with command-1,command-2, and so on.
Okay, I'll stop proselytizing.
i want to be able to just drag songs from itunes nito my ichat windows, instead of having to locate them in the finder and then drag and drop
i know this will never happen, but still, would be nice
Originally posted by kim kap sol
Sure, people can say it's PEBCAK, but what you say entirely true. It's unfortunately happened to me...and not just any ol' conversation between two people...it happened to be a mix up when I was talking to my ex-girlfriend and my new girlfriend simultaneously. It's silly and evands and adam may laugh but it's pretty fucking serious if you ask me. Switching back and forth between tabs between conversations can lead to disastrous situations. The possibility of misclicks also happen when you have to target small tabs.
If we don't factor in human foibles/habits/realities into human interface design, then we aren't doing our job.
Any number of perfectly valid, non-silly situations could occur by mixing up which chat you are in. The UI should bend over backwards to reduce this potentiality.
Now, again, mistakes can be made even in separate windows, so it's not a total anti-tab thing with me. I like tabs. But we need to think about using them just *anywhere*.
I don't doubt there are better ways to do this (manage multiple chats safely), I hope Apple can find them.
Another potential nightmare is the drag and drop in iChat. You can accidentally drop a file to someone and then it is a race to cancel before the other person accepts. The "drop" should not be equivalent to a "send" command. You should have a chance to mull it over one last time and click a Send button. (I can't test right now perhaps I'm misremembering that feature).
Anyway, yeah the user has to be ultimately responsible, no argument. I just think that chatting is inherently more risky or problematic. This is not merely a problem of showing multiple windows in tabbed interface. Chats are profoundly different than spreadsheets or webpages.
Let's not clamor for tabs for chats until it is really well thought out - we might miss out on a better way to do it.
Originally posted by mattjohndrow
i want there to be further integration with itunes, like this:
i want to be able to just drag songs from itunes nito my ichat windows, instead of having to locate them in the finder and then drag and drop
i know this will never happen, but still, would be nice