Well it is certainly debateable at this point as we are not clued inot the actual costs of the hardware especially the processor. What one has to realize though is that there isn't much to the machine.
As an example of possible prices Apple is paying fo rthe verious components with in the machine: Video card $15, Motherboard $75, Diskdrive $50, CDROM $50, Processor $150, balance of the machine $150. I would not be surprised to find that some of these numbers are high. Remember Apple would be getting high volume discounts beyond the normal wholesale costs.
In any event $800 is still less than half the retail cost of the machine. So it doesn't really look like a good deal either way.
Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Algol
I'm guessing it's more like why pay 1500 for 800 worth of hardware. I'm thinking that all that stuff in there is worth more than 500... but that's just me.
Your forgetting that Apple high volume isn't the same as PC high volume. The level of volume will effect the prices, but Apple volume purchases are not of the same volume as PC manufacturers. Therefore you shouldn't expect their buying prices to be as low as PC manufacturers. PC manufacturers could also buy together if they wanted to increase their volume discounting.
Doesn't it make you wonder why the DCC community does not use Macs at work? Is it a need for better towers? It sure as hell isn't a headless unit. Are they cheaper? No - I just configured an Alienware MJ12-X2 with Dual Xeon, 4GB, 250GB, DVD burner, and all the equivalent equipment of a PowerMac G5 and it came in at $4781.00. The PowerMac came in at $4570.00. Sure the Alienware has a Quadro PCI-Express video, but the rest is equal.
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
that is a ripp off, the price is way too f--ing high, imho, when compared to the imac, it seems stupid, AIOs are so 1998, please give me the single g5 tower for 1299.
I'm assuming he meant dual layer, and not dual optical mice (??)... I think, for the amount of money we spend on the G5, they could put one in there. I KNOW the wholesale prices on these drives, and it's only $10-20 more for pioneer Dual layers.
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
4 HDD bays not needed.
In a $3000 computer, yes, they are needed. Especially when Apple has crippled Firewire 800 in the G5 (the G4 is faster, according to http://www.barefeats.com ).
"You don't need it!" well by that logic, we don't need a G5 either, Dual 1.5G4s for everyone! For 3 grand, Apple should leave it to us to decide.
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
The hottest storage tech now is NAS/SAN. 5 or 6 expansion slots are only needed generally for those minute ProTools users.
Since the FW800 has been crippled in the G5, SATA external is probably the best way to go.
For even novice-level video editing, you need a Video input card, a Video output card, and lots of storage.
What if you also have a 6800? You only get 2 PCIs, so you only get 2 out of 3.
I do video editing, the only way I was able to do this on my $3000 G5 was to use a Dual 800 G4 to hold my drives (since it can hold up to 6 hard drives, 5 if you keep the Optical), and then network it with 1000BaseT. I can use it for video apps but many apps still don't recognize it, since it's a network drive.
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Apple's hardware is fine. They just need to move to PCI Express and faster CPU's and graphics.
Well then Apple's hardware is NOT fine, then isn't it?
I think you were speaking specifically about the case and mobo. I disagree. Since I actually use my G5 to its fullest extent, the damn thing is running at an average of 50% CPU for 20 hours a day. It's not quiet.
I'd be MUCH happier having a more sealed case, with processor fans, more HD bays, and at least 1 more PCI slot (or just move the AGP down so it doesn't block the damn slot when I put in my 6800).
The stock seems to think the hardware is fine. lol Apple has always had a high premium. I think the single 1.8Ghz should be cheaper though.
1.8Ghz single 1299
2.0Ghz single 1500
I think the single 2ghz would be a big seller. The problem is apple doesn't want these machines to be big sellers, they want the more expensive ones to sell. That's why you will never see a good deal on a low end powermac.
Doesn't it make you wonder why the DCC community does not use Macs at work? Is it a need for better towers? It sure as hell isn't a headless unit. Are they cheaper? No - I just configured an Alienware MJ12-X2 with Dual Xeon, 4GB, 250GB, DVD burner, and all the equivalent equipment of a PowerMac G5 and it came in at $4781.00. The PowerMac came in at $4570.00. Sure the Alienware has a Quadro PCI-Express video, but the rest is equal.
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Your wrong. It is the hardware, and it isn't the same because the Mac graphics drivers don't work for sh*t, and a the difference in price between a Quadro, and what is in the Mac is more than $200. The price difference favors the Alienware. Not to mention these can be sent back to alienware when new motherboards come out, and you can have them upgraded. Or do it yourself for much less than buying a new computer.
What you didn't report was that this machine also has an option for Dual SLI Nvidia Quadro's, for DCC, and you can get Dual Quadro SDI's for Video which is freaking incredible, and you can still configure it up.
You didn't report that all the drives can be configured as Hot Swappable SATA chassis for $70. That's Some serious bonus if you ask me. You can also keep going upward with this machine as well. THe video card options are endless because you can use any PC card in there, but the store offers Fire GL's, and SLI (2x) Quadro's as configurable options.
I really don't see that Mac as competing with this because It's not in the same league, but it could be if some adjustments were made. It does not need much to retool the PowerMac as a very decent DCC machine.
Quote:
Originally posted by Algol
The stock seems to think the hardware is fine.
The stock price for a company has nothing to with weather or not the hardware is capable of performing in different fields.
Your wrong. It is the hardware, and it isn't the same because the Mac graphics drivers don't work for sh*t, and a the difference in price between a Quadro, and what is in the Mac is more than $200. The price difference favors the Alienware. Not to mention these can be sent back to alienware when new motherboards come out, and you can have them upgraded. Or do it yourself for much less than buying a new computer..
What am I wrong about? Did you read what the f**k I wrote??? Apparently not! Let me echo:
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Anyway, I don't part things together and would never want to with a $5000 computer. Besides, I know the horrors of Windows and parting PCs....it ain't pretty. I'd upgrade to the latest system with the latest video, logic board, cpus, NICs, sound, etc...get my point?
Quote:
Originally posted by onlooker
What you didn't report was that this machine also has an option for Dual SLI Nvidia Quadro's, for DCC, and you can get Dual Quadro SDI's for Video which is freaking incredible, and you can still configure it up.
You didn't report that all the drives can be configured as Hot Swappable SATA chassis for $70. That's Some serious bonus if you ask me. You can also keep going upward with this machine as well. THe video card options are endless because you can use any PC card in there, but the store offers Fire GL's, and SLI (2x) Quadro's as configurable options.
I really don't see that Mac as competing with this because It's not in the same league, but it could be if some adjustments were made. It does not need much to retool the PowerMac as a very decent DCC machine.
Umm, yeah I already said better video is needed, didn't I? I know the video in the Alienware is more expensive, I also know that the 6800 is more expensive than what comes in a stock Alienware. Big f**king deal! We are talking a couple hundred bucks compared to the $5000 total you are spending.
So what hardware is subpar in a PowerMac versus an Alienware? Not much as far as I can tell.
Now, if I wanted something hot-swappable, I'd buy an xServe. Not a big deal to me; maybe for some.
The fact still remains that 95% of highend creative professionals are not using Macs at work. But another 15+% or more would, and another 35+% on top of that would "seriously" consider it from the first real offering of the right machine. ( you should have seen the buzz when the G5 was announced before they were independently tested) There are already a lot of Mac users in the highend creative fields, but practically none of them are using them at work.
It's not insanity that is keeping them away - It's the lack of the right Mac for the job. It's just not there.
i don't understand why you're saying that. all of the ad creatives i know use macs at work. all the photographers i know use macs at work. all the screenwriters and production people and post production people (editors, visual effects artists, sound engineers) at least HAVE macs in their studio. most music production places i've been use macs as the work machines. i don't recall being at any facility where they use pc's.
honestly, i am RARELY around people who use windows at work OR at home. i am friends with maybe two people who use windows as their main machine.
I'm assuming he meant dual layer, and not dual optical mice
I meant two seperate optical drives. The common desire is to burn directly from one disc to another and somehow that's justification for adding two drives.
I wouldn't mind if Apple included two optical drives but it's not something I lose sleep over because they haven't.
Quote:
In a $3000 computer, yes, they are needed. Especially when Apple has crippled Firewire 800 in the G5 (the G4 is faster,
Actually that's not Apple "crippling" anything. What's their motive for doing so? It's a hardware bug that they've had to swallow, I look for an new improved controller asic that clears up this issue. It is a bummer.
Internal drives are cheap but they don't offer the flexibility that external drives offer. The main impetus behind the desire seems to be running to the local cheap reseller and grabbing some more drives. NAS/SAN are expensive now but quickly emerging as a nice viable solution for those who need flexible storage. External FW/USB2 drives are easy to set up but cost more. It generally boils down to "I want to save money" versus the more logical(IMHO) "how can I effectively utilize storage to become more productive"
Quote:
"You don't need it!" well by that logic, we don't need a G5 either, Dual 1.5G4s for everyone! For 3 grand, Apple should leave it to us to decide.
Sure when we all get our engineering degrees we can. Right now they have designed the case to meet their objectives. G5's represent a quantifiable increase in productivy..internal/external drives generally offer similar productivity gains but differ in cost. Apples to Oranges
Apple has never really been competitive on configurations because that's the only area PC companies can differentiate themselves generally. But they do offer a product that designed for those who want more than just the commodity. I'd like to see Apple work more magic in software. If people are raving about the iPods then they haven't seen anything yet because most Apple apps are the iPod of their genre.
This is my PowerBook wish... well my realistic or somewhat realistic powerbook wish. Decided apple would probably use the 1/4 bus multiplier to keep heat down. I sort of tried to follow customary apple practice by making you buy the upper end to get the better graphics card. Anyway, I think something like this is possible.
PowerBook 12"
1.6Ghz G5
512kB L2 cache
512MB RAM
400mhz bus (1/4)
60GB 5200rpm HD
Combo
Radeon 9600 64MB
$1,599.00
PowerBook 15"
1.6Ghz G5
512kB L2 cache
512MB RAM
400mhz bus (1/4)
60GB 5200rpm HD
combo
Radeon 9700 64MB
$1999.00
PowerBook 15"
1.8Ghz G5
512kB L2 cache
512MB RAM
450Mhz Bus
80GB 7200rpm HD
super
Radeon 9800 128MB
$2,499.00
PowerBook 17"
1.8Ghz G5
512KB L2 cache
512MB RAM
600Mhz bus (figured with extra space could take heat, help sell)
What am I wrong about? Did you read what the f**k I wrote??? Apparently not! Let me echo:
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Anyway, I don't part things together and would never want to with a $5000 computer. Besides, I know the horrors of Windows and parting PCs....it ain't pretty. I'd upgrade to the latest system with the latest video, logic board, cpus, NICs, sound, etc...get my point?
Umm, yeah I already said better video is needed, didn't I? I know the video in the Alienware is more expensive, I also know that the 6800 is more expensive than what comes in a stock Alienware. Big f**king deal! We are talking a couple hundred bucks compared to the $5000 total you are spending.
So what hardware is subpar in a PowerMac versus an Alienware? Not much as far as I can tell.
Now, if I wanted something hot-swappable, I'd buy an xServe. Not a big deal to me; maybe for some.
Yes I read what you said what are you freaking out about?
Spending $5000+ to get hot swappable drives for your home computer instead of $70 is exactly what I'm talking about. You would admittedly have to be blinded by fanatical Mac stubbornness to be that foolish.
But back to the first part of your rant - Yes, video, video upgradability, and available hardware options is what we are talking about.
In these areas (the most important ones for 3D) I do see the Mac as totally inferior, but as I've also said before It's not that much work to bring it up to an acceptable level. Is that so hard to understand?
Alienware revised their line after the last PowerMac update, and it looks much better with the new options they are offering. I think Apple should move toward bringing in some of these ideas into the PowerMac to make it look more attractive before it looks way too far out of it's league.
The hot swappable drive bay chassis alone would definitely put to rest some of the complaints from people not in 3D saying they need more drive bay expansion.
Sheesh have a cow why don't you?
Quote:
Originally posted by admactanium
i don't understand why you're saying that. all of the ad creatives i know use macs at work. all the photographers i know use macs at work. all the screenwriters and production people and post production people (editors, visual effects artists, sound engineers) at least HAVE macs in their studio. most music production places i've been use macs as the work machines. i don't recall being at any facility where they use pc's.
honestly, i am RARELY around people who use windows at work OR at home. i am friends with maybe two people who use windows as their main machine.
Not much post is done on a Mac anywhere I've been made aware of.
And ad creatives I don't consider needing a "HIghend workstation" so the one Apple has is actually totally acceptable for typical 2D work, and photography. because It's just not HIghend work.
Although you mentioned sound engineers, and they to can live on what is available from the PowerMac, but (something I don't actually need) they would probably be more happy with some additional PCI-X slots.
Back when I was in my band I had all 6 slots in my 9600 filled with PCI cards going to sound devices that members of my band could not seem to live without.
Things have changed now to where you can pretty much get away without it, but I still know a few people in the industry that use either an expansion chassis, or a PC just for the extra slots. So that is still a little iffy, but the technology in that field is driving away from the old PCI style of connections anyway I think. But that's just what I think.
seems like way too soon, but macrumors.com buyer's guide lists the g5 towers as approaching end of cycle, now i am not implying before christmas, but with 30 days left until average release, and mwsf coming out in 2.5 months (somewhere around a few weeks after that 30 day mark hits), it would seem like if Apple wants to stay ahead in the horse race, they might do well to update their towers...ironically many people haven't even gotten their dual 2.5s if they wanted a 30" tower... sad..but thats technology i guess?
here is for more than 2 HD bays and 1 more optical bay and 1 or 2 more PCI slots...
seems like way too soon, but macrumors.com buyer's guide lists the g5 towers as approaching end of cycle, now i am not implying before christmas, but with 30 days left until average release, and mwsf coming out in 2.5 months (somewhere around a few weeks after that 30 day mark hits), it would seem like if Apple wants to stay ahead in the horse race, they might do well to update their towers...ironically many people haven't even gotten their dual 2.5s if they wanted a 30" tower... sad..but thats technology i guess?
here is for more than 2 HD bays and 1 more optical bay and 1 or 2 more PCI slots...
someone should send them a message. the G5's actually were "Recently Updated" with the intro of the single 1.8. Macrumors in the past has counted that as an update to the line, so they just overlooked it this time.
To help naivgate the thread back on topic here, I'm suspecting that the big thing at MWSF will be PowerBooks. A few weeks ago the thought of a G5 PowerBook seemed to be an impossibility, now I'm a bit more hopefull.
Ironically most of that hope comes not from the 970FX but from processes and core tweaks the rumored 970MP will get. If the process improvements are applied to a low power 970 variant for portable applications then we are good to go. There does seem to be rumors to the effect that IBM has qualified a low power device for Apple, the question is is it a 970FX or a more refined processor.
At this point we could see a dual core processor in the 17" replacement. We are talking a machine with around 1.8Ghz operating speed, huge RAM possibilities and a GPU. The GPU is the interesting component here, an ATI 9800 seems like a reasonable possibility. Still I'd like to see Apple transition to PCI-Express. PCI-Express should work rather well in a portable as it saves space and power.
The rest of the line up is likely to be single core units running at 1.6GHz. In all the units Apple is likely to transition to SATA for the drives.
(2) building a cheaper headless box (smaller case, 1-2 expansion slots, 2 or 3 drive bays, single G5) - prices starting at $1,299. This is not too far off the entry level pricing of the current SP G5 at $1,499 - Apple could save $100 by offering a combo drive rather than super drive and shave another $100 off by offering a smaller case and slightly less expandibility
[/B]
If Apple were to do this, which I don't think they'll ever do, they'd need to really do it. Lower the price to $1,000 and offer a bundled 17" display at $1,299 or get a 20" display for less than $2,000. The current display pricing is a major problem, especially without a lower priced 17" display. Even this new SP G5 isn't a good deal unless you have your own display. They'd also need to drop the AIO iMac and enchance the eMac to deal with the sub-1,000 price range even better.
Honestly the better option would be for Apple to allow the iMac's video card to be updated and keep chipping away at the price when possible. If they could bring each unit down by $100-$300 that would be nice.
As far as MWSF, I hope to see a flash based iPod and a lot of Tiger stuff. They might update the PowerBook too. I don't expect a new PowerMac.
Not much post is done on a Mac anywhere I've been made aware of.
And ad creatives I don't consider needing a "HIghend workstation" so the one Apple has is actually totally acceptable for typical 2D work, and photography. because It's just not HIghend work.
Although you mentioned sound engineers, and they to can live on what is available from the PowerMac, but (something I don't actually need) they would probably be more happy with some additional PCI-X slots.
Back when I was in my band I had all 6 slots in my 9600 filled with PCI cards going to sound devices that members of my band could not seem to live without.
Things have changed now to where you can pretty much get away without it, but I still know a few people in the industry that use either an expansion chassis, or a PC just for the extra slots. So that is still a little iffy, but the technology in that field is driving away from the old PCI style of connections anyway I think. But that's just what I think.
well, i'm not sure what processors the discreet systems use, but i've never seen any pro house use a windows pc for work related to post (ironically enough i used to work on microsoft's advertising). 3d animators probably do, but for compositing, color correction or anything else of that nature, the machines are purpose-built with perhaps a render rack out back. editing is still done on macs since of the 10 or so edit places i've been in the past couple years i've not seen one windows machine. if by highend workstation you mean solely 3d work, then yes, i'd agree. but again, i personally have never seen windows used any any form of production or post production (including the 3d animators i've worked with).
[caveat] some web designers and flash designers use windows. but they're even lower end than print photography retouching on processing power. [/caveat]
The current display pricing is a major problem, especially without a lower priced 17" display. Even this new SP G5 isn't a good deal unless you have your own display.
Strongly agree with you on this. Anyone buying into an all Apple headless story needs to step up for at least $2,798 ($1,499 for the box and $1,299 for the display). Optically this is quite a bit to swallow.
Apple should make a much smaller (aluminium) case design for the 970FX SP model, offer a single optical drive, a single hard drive and a couple of expansion slots for (say) $1,199-$1,299. This would give the prosumer (who is looking for some expansion options) what they are looking for plus make a useful enterprise box. Also, give us an Al 17" flat panel at $699 or $799. There is a good profit margin in it for Apple at these prices and the headline price for a box plus 17" display is $1,898-$1,999 which fits very nicely alongside the iMac G5 range (i.e. around $599 premium to the 17" model - you pay extra for the flexibility to expand and amortise the display over a longer period).
Apple should only do this when the MP is released so they can take the PowerMac further up the range.
Comments
As an example of possible prices Apple is paying fo rthe verious components with in the machine: Video card $15, Motherboard $75, Diskdrive $50, CDROM $50, Processor $150, balance of the machine $150. I would not be surprised to find that some of these numbers are high. Remember Apple would be getting high volume discounts beyond the normal wholesale costs.
In any event $800 is still less than half the retail cost of the machine. So it doesn't really look like a good deal either way.
Dave
Originally posted by Algol
I'm guessing it's more like why pay 1500 for 800 worth of hardware. I'm thinking that all that stuff in there is worth more than 500... but that's just me.
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Originally posted by hmurchison
They have. Single Proc 1.8Ghz Powermac for $1500
that is a ripp off, the price is way too f--ing high, imho, when compared to the imac, it seems stupid, AIOs are so 1998, please give me the single g5 tower for 1299.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Dual Opticals not needed.
I'm assuming he meant dual layer, and not dual optical mice (??)... I think, for the amount of money we spend on the G5, they could put one in there. I KNOW the wholesale prices on these drives, and it's only $10-20 more for pioneer Dual layers.
Originally posted by hmurchison
4 HDD bays not needed.
In a $3000 computer, yes, they are needed. Especially when Apple has crippled Firewire 800 in the G5 (the G4 is faster, according to http://www.barefeats.com ).
"You don't need it!" well by that logic, we don't need a G5 either, Dual 1.5G4s for everyone! For 3 grand, Apple should leave it to us to decide.
Originally posted by hmurchison
The hottest storage tech now is NAS/SAN. 5 or 6 expansion slots are only needed generally for those minute ProTools users.
Since the FW800 has been crippled in the G5, SATA external is probably the best way to go.
For even novice-level video editing, you need a Video input card, a Video output card, and lots of storage.
What if you also have a 6800? You only get 2 PCIs, so you only get 2 out of 3.
I do video editing, the only way I was able to do this on my $3000 G5 was to use a Dual 800 G4 to hold my drives (since it can hold up to 6 hard drives, 5 if you keep the Optical), and then network it with 1000BaseT. I can use it for video apps but many apps still don't recognize it, since it's a network drive.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Apple's hardware is fine. They just need to move to PCI Express and faster CPU's and graphics.
Well then Apple's hardware is NOT fine, then isn't it?
I think you were speaking specifically about the case and mobo. I disagree. Since I actually use my G5 to its fullest extent, the damn thing is running at an average of 50% CPU for 20 hours a day. It's not quiet.
I'd be MUCH happier having a more sealed case, with processor fans, more HD bays, and at least 1 more PCI slot (or just move the AGP down so it doesn't block the damn slot when I put in my 6800).
1.8Ghz single 1299
2.0Ghz single 1500
I think the single 2ghz would be a big seller. The problem is apple doesn't want these machines to be big sellers, they want the more expensive ones to sell. That's why you will never see a good deal on a low end powermac.
Originally posted by Rhumgod
Doesn't it make you wonder why the DCC community does not use Macs at work? Is it a need for better towers? It sure as hell isn't a headless unit. Are they cheaper? No - I just configured an Alienware MJ12-X2 with Dual Xeon, 4GB, 250GB, DVD burner, and all the equivalent equipment of a PowerMac G5 and it came in at $4781.00. The PowerMac came in at $4570.00. Sure the Alienware has a Quadro PCI-Express video, but the rest is equal.
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Your wrong. It is the hardware, and it isn't the same because the Mac graphics drivers don't work for sh*t, and a the difference in price between a Quadro, and what is in the Mac is more than $200. The price difference favors the Alienware. Not to mention these can be sent back to alienware when new motherboards come out, and you can have them upgraded. Or do it yourself for much less than buying a new computer.
What you didn't report was that this machine also has an option for Dual SLI Nvidia Quadro's, for DCC, and you can get Dual Quadro SDI's for Video which is freaking incredible, and you can still configure it up.
You didn't report that all the drives can be configured as Hot Swappable SATA chassis for $70. That's Some serious bonus if you ask me. You can also keep going upward with this machine as well. THe video card options are endless because you can use any PC card in there, but the store offers Fire GL's, and SLI (2x) Quadro's as configurable options.
I really don't see that Mac as competing with this because It's not in the same league, but it could be if some adjustments were made. It does not need much to retool the PowerMac as a very decent DCC machine.
Originally posted by Algol
The stock seems to think the hardware is fine.
The stock price for a company has nothing to with weather or not the hardware is capable of performing in different fields.
Originally posted by onlooker
Your wrong. It is the hardware, and it isn't the same because the Mac graphics drivers don't work for sh*t, and a the difference in price between a Quadro, and what is in the Mac is more than $200. The price difference favors the Alienware. Not to mention these can be sent back to alienware when new motherboards come out, and you can have them upgraded. Or do it yourself for much less than buying a new computer..
What am I wrong about? Did you read what the f**k I wrote??? Apparently not! Let me echo:
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Anyway, I don't part things together and would never want to with a $5000 computer. Besides, I know the horrors of Windows and parting PCs....it ain't pretty. I'd upgrade to the latest system with the latest video, logic board, cpus, NICs, sound, etc...get my point?
Originally posted by onlooker
What you didn't report was that this machine also has an option for Dual SLI Nvidia Quadro's, for DCC, and you can get Dual Quadro SDI's for Video which is freaking incredible, and you can still configure it up.
You didn't report that all the drives can be configured as Hot Swappable SATA chassis for $70. That's Some serious bonus if you ask me. You can also keep going upward with this machine as well. THe video card options are endless because you can use any PC card in there, but the store offers Fire GL's, and SLI (2x) Quadro's as configurable options.
I really don't see that Mac as competing with this because It's not in the same league, but it could be if some adjustments were made. It does not need much to retool the PowerMac as a very decent DCC machine.
Umm, yeah I already said better video is needed, didn't I? I know the video in the Alienware is more expensive, I also know that the 6800 is more expensive than what comes in a stock Alienware. Big f**king deal! We are talking a couple hundred bucks compared to the $5000 total you are spending.
So what hardware is subpar in a PowerMac versus an Alienware? Not much as far as I can tell.
Now, if I wanted something hot-swappable, I'd buy an xServe. Not a big deal to me; maybe for some.
Originally posted by onlooker
The fact still remains that 95% of highend creative professionals are not using Macs at work. But another 15+% or more would, and another 35+% on top of that would "seriously" consider it from the first real offering of the right machine. ( you should have seen the buzz when the G5 was announced before they were independently tested) There are already a lot of Mac users in the highend creative fields, but practically none of them are using them at work.
It's not insanity that is keeping them away - It's the lack of the right Mac for the job. It's just not there.
i don't understand why you're saying that. all of the ad creatives i know use macs at work. all the photographers i know use macs at work. all the screenwriters and production people and post production people (editors, visual effects artists, sound engineers) at least HAVE macs in their studio. most music production places i've been use macs as the work machines. i don't recall being at any facility where they use pc's.
honestly, i am RARELY around people who use windows at work OR at home. i am friends with maybe two people who use windows as their main machine.
I'm assuming he meant dual layer, and not dual optical mice
I meant two seperate optical drives. The common desire is to burn directly from one disc to another and somehow that's justification for adding two drives.
I wouldn't mind if Apple included two optical drives but it's not something I lose sleep over because they haven't.
In a $3000 computer, yes, they are needed. Especially when Apple has crippled Firewire 800 in the G5 (the G4 is faster,
Actually that's not Apple "crippling" anything. What's their motive for doing so? It's a hardware bug that they've had to swallow, I look for an new improved controller asic that clears up this issue. It is a bummer.
Internal drives are cheap but they don't offer the flexibility that external drives offer. The main impetus behind the desire seems to be running to the local cheap reseller and grabbing some more drives. NAS/SAN are expensive now but quickly emerging as a nice viable solution for those who need flexible storage. External FW/USB2 drives are easy to set up but cost more. It generally boils down to "I want to save money" versus the more logical(IMHO) "how can I effectively utilize storage to become more productive"
"You don't need it!" well by that logic, we don't need a G5 either, Dual 1.5G4s for everyone! For 3 grand, Apple should leave it to us to decide.
Sure when we all get our engineering degrees we can. Right now they have designed the case to meet their objectives. G5's represent a quantifiable increase in productivy..internal/external drives generally offer similar productivity gains but differ in cost. Apples to Oranges
Apple has never really been competitive on configurations because that's the only area PC companies can differentiate themselves generally. But they do offer a product that designed for those who want more than just the commodity. I'd like to see Apple work more magic in software. If people are raving about the iPods then they haven't seen anything yet because most Apple apps are the iPod of their genre.
That said, more Tiger, PowerBook G5 and a new PowerMac model (higher end).
PowerBook 12"
1.6Ghz G5
512kB L2 cache
512MB RAM
400mhz bus (1/4)
60GB 5200rpm HD
Combo
Radeon 9600 64MB
$1,599.00
PowerBook 15"
1.6Ghz G5
512kB L2 cache
512MB RAM
400mhz bus (1/4)
60GB 5200rpm HD
combo
Radeon 9700 64MB
$1999.00
PowerBook 15"
1.8Ghz G5
512kB L2 cache
512MB RAM
450Mhz Bus
80GB 7200rpm HD
super
Radeon 9800 128MB
$2,499.00
PowerBook 17"
1.8Ghz G5
512KB L2 cache
512MB RAM
600Mhz bus (figured with extra space could take heat, help sell)
80GB 7200rpm HD
super drive
Radeon 9800 128MB
$2,999.00
Originally posted by Rhumgod
What am I wrong about? Did you read what the f**k I wrote??? Apparently not! Let me echo:
Video, is the only reason as far as I can tell. I agree that PowerMacs need better video, or at least a BTO option for it.
Anyway, I don't part things together and would never want to with a $5000 computer. Besides, I know the horrors of Windows and parting PCs....it ain't pretty. I'd upgrade to the latest system with the latest video, logic board, cpus, NICs, sound, etc...get my point?
Umm, yeah I already said better video is needed, didn't I? I know the video in the Alienware is more expensive, I also know that the 6800 is more expensive than what comes in a stock Alienware. Big f**king deal! We are talking a couple hundred bucks compared to the $5000 total you are spending.
So what hardware is subpar in a PowerMac versus an Alienware? Not much as far as I can tell.
Now, if I wanted something hot-swappable, I'd buy an xServe. Not a big deal to me; maybe for some.
Yes I read what you said what are you freaking out about?
Spending $5000+ to get hot swappable drives for your home computer instead of $70 is exactly what I'm talking about. You would admittedly have to be blinded by fanatical Mac stubbornness to be that foolish.
But back to the first part of your rant - Yes, video, video upgradability, and available hardware options is what we are talking about.
In these areas (the most important ones for 3D) I do see the Mac as totally inferior, but as I've also said before It's not that much work to bring it up to an acceptable level. Is that so hard to understand?
Alienware revised their line after the last PowerMac update, and it looks much better with the new options they are offering. I think Apple should move toward bringing in some of these ideas into the PowerMac to make it look more attractive before it looks way too far out of it's league.
The hot swappable drive bay chassis alone would definitely put to rest some of the complaints from people not in 3D saying they need more drive bay expansion.
Sheesh have a cow why don't you?
Originally posted by admactanium
i don't understand why you're saying that. all of the ad creatives i know use macs at work. all the photographers i know use macs at work. all the screenwriters and production people and post production people (editors, visual effects artists, sound engineers) at least HAVE macs in their studio. most music production places i've been use macs as the work machines. i don't recall being at any facility where they use pc's.
honestly, i am RARELY around people who use windows at work OR at home. i am friends with maybe two people who use windows as their main machine.
Not much post is done on a Mac anywhere I've been made aware of.
And ad creatives I don't consider needing a "HIghend workstation" so the one Apple has is actually totally acceptable for typical 2D work, and photography. because It's just not HIghend work.
Although you mentioned sound engineers, and they to can live on what is available from the PowerMac, but (something I don't actually need) they would probably be more happy with some additional PCI-X slots.
Back when I was in my band I had all 6 slots in my 9600 filled with PCI cards going to sound devices that members of my band could not seem to live without.
Things have changed now to where you can pretty much get away without it, but I still know a few people in the industry that use either an expansion chassis, or a PC just for the extra slots. So that is still a little iffy, but the technology in that field is driving away from the old PCI style of connections anyway I think. But that's just what I think.
here is for more than 2 HD bays and 1 more optical bay and 1 or 2 more PCI slots...
Originally posted by eddively
seems like way too soon, but macrumors.com buyer's guide lists the g5 towers as approaching end of cycle, now i am not implying before christmas, but with 30 days left until average release, and mwsf coming out in 2.5 months (somewhere around a few weeks after that 30 day mark hits), it would seem like if Apple wants to stay ahead in the horse race, they might do well to update their towers...ironically many people haven't even gotten their dual 2.5s if they wanted a 30" tower... sad..but thats technology i guess?
here is for more than 2 HD bays and 1 more optical bay and 1 or 2 more PCI slots...
someone should send them a message. the G5's actually were "Recently Updated" with the intro of the single 1.8. Macrumors in the past has counted that as an update to the line, so they just overlooked it this time.
Ironically most of that hope comes not from the 970FX but from processes and core tweaks the rumored 970MP will get. If the process improvements are applied to a low power 970 variant for portable applications then we are good to go. There does seem to be rumors to the effect that IBM has qualified a low power device for Apple, the question is is it a 970FX or a more refined processor.
At this point we could see a dual core processor in the 17" replacement. We are talking a machine with around 1.8Ghz operating speed, huge RAM possibilities and a GPU. The GPU is the interesting component here, an ATI 9800 seems like a reasonable possibility. Still I'd like to see Apple transition to PCI-Express. PCI-Express should work rather well in a portable as it saves space and power.
The rest of the line up is likely to be single core units running at 1.6GHz. In all the units Apple is likely to transition to SATA for the drives.
Dave
[i]Originally posted by McCrab
(2) building a cheaper headless box (smaller case, 1-2 expansion slots, 2 or 3 drive bays, single G5) - prices starting at $1,299. This is not too far off the entry level pricing of the current SP G5 at $1,499 - Apple could save $100 by offering a combo drive rather than super drive and shave another $100 off by offering a smaller case and slightly less expandibility
[/B]
If Apple were to do this, which I don't think they'll ever do, they'd need to really do it. Lower the price to $1,000 and offer a bundled 17" display at $1,299 or get a 20" display for less than $2,000. The current display pricing is a major problem, especially without a lower priced 17" display. Even this new SP G5 isn't a good deal unless you have your own display. They'd also need to drop the AIO iMac and enchance the eMac to deal with the sub-1,000 price range even better.
Honestly the better option would be for Apple to allow the iMac's video card to be updated and keep chipping away at the price when possible. If they could bring each unit down by $100-$300 that would be nice.
As far as MWSF, I hope to see a flash based iPod and a lot of Tiger stuff. They might update the PowerBook too. I don't expect a new PowerMac.
Originally posted by onlooker
Not much post is done on a Mac anywhere I've been made aware of.
And ad creatives I don't consider needing a "HIghend workstation" so the one Apple has is actually totally acceptable for typical 2D work, and photography. because It's just not HIghend work.
Although you mentioned sound engineers, and they to can live on what is available from the PowerMac, but (something I don't actually need) they would probably be more happy with some additional PCI-X slots.
Back when I was in my band I had all 6 slots in my 9600 filled with PCI cards going to sound devices that members of my band could not seem to live without.
Things have changed now to where you can pretty much get away without it, but I still know a few people in the industry that use either an expansion chassis, or a PC just for the extra slots. So that is still a little iffy, but the technology in that field is driving away from the old PCI style of connections anyway I think. But that's just what I think.
well, i'm not sure what processors the discreet systems use, but i've never seen any pro house use a windows pc for work related to post (ironically enough i used to work on microsoft's advertising). 3d animators probably do, but for compositing, color correction or anything else of that nature, the machines are purpose-built with perhaps a render rack out back. editing is still done on macs since of the 10 or so edit places i've been in the past couple years i've not seen one windows machine. if by highend workstation you mean solely 3d work, then yes, i'd agree. but again, i personally have never seen windows used any any form of production or post production (including the 3d animators i've worked with).
[caveat] some web designers and flash designers use windows. but they're even lower end than print photography retouching on processing power. [/caveat]
Originally posted by imacFP
The current display pricing is a major problem, especially without a lower priced 17" display. Even this new SP G5 isn't a good deal unless you have your own display.
Strongly agree with you on this. Anyone buying into an all Apple headless story needs to step up for at least $2,798 ($1,499 for the box and $1,299 for the display). Optically this is quite a bit to swallow.
Apple should make a much smaller (aluminium) case design for the 970FX SP model, offer a single optical drive, a single hard drive and a couple of expansion slots for (say) $1,199-$1,299. This would give the prosumer (who is looking for some expansion options) what they are looking for plus make a useful enterprise box. Also, give us an Al 17" flat panel at $699 or $799. There is a good profit margin in it for Apple at these prices and the headline price for a box plus 17" display is $1,898-$1,999 which fits very nicely alongside the iMac G5 range (i.e. around $599 premium to the 17" model - you pay extra for the flexibility to expand and amortise the display over a longer period).
Apple should only do this when the MP is released so they can take the PowerMac further up the range.