<strong>"Hmmm. That's interesting. A CPU that would go with Jaguar. And Moto' stuffed up. That would kinda make sense. [ 01-18-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not referring to Jaguar as in OS X 10.2, I meant Jaguar as in the Jaguar Project that was in competition with the Cognac Project to design Apple's answer to the Pentium PC's just being introduced, as well as the limitations of the 68k. I think someone here said that the chip was designated as the 88000. Anyway, everything was all set to go; Apple's IDg had the case set, and the OS was ready, just that Moto "stuffed up". Internal politics at Apple also played a factor. It's kind of good that Jaguar died...their plan called on an architecture that was completely incompatible with 68k software.
There's also a very good chance that you actually *did* know what I mean and that I misunderstood you, so in that case, please feel free to ignore everything I've just said.
<strong> :eek: No wonder they were welding the cases shut! It was a safety precaution. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Makes me wonder what would have happened if they tried putting a G5 into a laptop form factor. And they said the PB 5300 had flaming performance...
Makes me wonder what would have happened if they tried putting a G5 into a laptop form factor. And they said the PB 5300 had flaming performance...</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 17" Power book might be able to handle a G5.
It has a lot of extra space. Remember people did not think that a G4 could be placed in a labtop, yet alone one that is 1" thick.
Like there's no high voltage electricity involved in spot welding? Get serious.
If they had a flange right around the case they could just put a pop-rivet or a bolt through it, or a commercial wire seal.
NO WELDED CASES!</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have got to relaxe, dude. First off, welded or not welded, the point is its just confirming sealed box's from apple.
Second, your going against a few dozen reports of WELDED-SHUT cases being shipped to developers. You may have your little theory on why welded cases are impossible, but people have SEEN them. So complain all you want. They exist.
The rumors flying about welding techniques on prototype boxes is incredibly illuminating.
In spite of my sarcasm, I'll chime in that I have seen electronics cases welded where in two flanges meet (like where a padlock might go) and those are spot welded shut. It allows for the weld to be broken easily since I'm sure they will want to get the components out of the box at some point.
It isn't really practical, but welding would just be a Jobsian kind of thing to do.
Like there's no high voltage electricity involved in spot welding? Get serious.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
well, there's no HV on the secondary side of the circuit, which does the actual welding. I did some work for company that made resistive welding robots & machines a few years back, and I seem to remember the secondary voltage being around 1.5V with a current around 60,000 Amps for a biggish spot welder. Of course, that would still give you a fairly serious magnetic field!
I'm not referring to Jaguar as in OS X 10.2, I meant Jaguar as in the Jaguar Project that was in competition with the Cognac Project to design Apple's answer to the Pentium PC's just being introduced, as well as the limitations of the 68k. I think someone here said that the chip was designated as the 88000. Anyway, everything was all set to go; Apple's IDg had the case set, and the OS was ready, just that Moto "stuffed up". Internal politics at Apple also played a factor. It's kind of good that Jaguar died...their plan called on an architecture that was completely incompatible with 68k software.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 88000, AFAIK, was Motorola's RISC based successor to the 68k. It was supposedly quite impressive. It's the first time I've heard the 88000 was an in-house Apple project. In any case, Apple decided to go with the PPC instead, and AIM chose to adopt some of the 88000's features in order to recoup some of the investment. I've never heard the 88000 would have been incompatible with 68k code, but even if it was, it isn't like the PPC (especially the 601) ran 68k code well either. I've also never heard of the project being referred to as Jaguar, and I'd love to know more about the Cognac project the poster refers to.
<strong>You may have your little theory on why welded cases are impossible, but people have SEEN them. So complain all you want. They exist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm.. ok, lets see here. We have, on someones 3rd party knowledge, that someone has seen these supposed welded machines. Now we also have some knowledge stating that welding a case is just not practial do to magentic fields (or electricity or something). So it comes down to do you believe rumor or fact. Me, personally, I believe in fact, but you can believe what YOU want.
To say that some guys "theory" on welding cases is nice, but these machines exist 100% because someone says they do is absoultly ridiculous. If I said I could fly, and 10 people here "confirm" it, but one person said that is not possible because of how physics work, would you believe me saying I could fly? That is basicly what you are saying now.
<strong> If I said I could fly, and 10 people here "confirm" it, but one person said that is not possible because of how physics work, would you believe me saying I could fly? That is basicly what you are saying now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, you can fly. There's a device called a plane that makes it possible.
There is also a device, called a ground, that makes it possible to spot weld a shielded metallic box without damaging sensitive electronic equipment inside.
But who cares. The point is that we will never know what was in these purported G5 boxen.
The NeXT RISC Workstation was a dual 88000 machine that ran NeXTStep 3.2. One 88000 ran the system; the other ran the display as well as the NTSC/PAL video I/O.
A few prototypes survived the 1992 NeXT hardware Steveing.
Actually, you can fly. There's a device called a plane that makes it possible.
There is also a device, called a ground, that makes it possible to spot weld a shielded metallic box without damaging sensitive electronic equipment inside.
But who cares. The point is that we will never know what was in these purported G5 boxen.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They dont understand this, and even if they do, they're so intent on keeping the position they already took that they will continue to argue the fact.
Actually, you can fly. There's a device called a plane that makes it possible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bah, come on you had to know what I meant. I meant that I couldn't go jump off a cliff and flap really extra hard and start flying. My whole point is just because some people say it is true, that doesn't make it true.
So to say that there are welded cases because you, your friend, and this guy from this building say they exist doens't make them exist 100%. Miami Craig said:
[quote]people have SEEN them. So complain all you want. They exist<hr></blockquote>
Which could be true or false, we dont know for certain. Honestly there is no way to say one way or the other. There will be the crowd that believes it all, and there will be the skeptics. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and nothing you can say will change mine. The only way for everyone to finally agree is if Apple publicly came out and said they had shipped welded boxes out (which we all know will not happen).
<strong>...It's the first time I've heard the 88000 was an in-house Apple project. In any case, Apple decided to go with the PPC instead, and AIM chose to adopt some of the 88000's features in order to recoup some of the investment....I've also never heard of the project being referred to as Jaguar, and I'd love to know more about the Cognac project the poster refers to.</strong><hr></blockquote>
According to Paul Kunkel's "AppleDesign: The Work of The Apple Industrial Design Group", Jaguar was the project that was supposed to be the future of Apple. They knew stuff like real-time 3D graphics, video teleconferencing, and real-time video editing/viewing was coming to the desktop computer soon; and they thought that that RISC was the only way to do it. The three people behind the project were Hugh Martin (who supposedly held a lot of sway w/in Apple at the time), Roger Heinen and Tom Bentley. Martin was responsible for leading the design of the chip that would power it, Heinen was responsible for supplying the OS it would run, and Bentley was responsible for the case design. I've also read this in Steven Levy's "Insanely Great", though he doesn't mention Martin, Heinen, or Bentley. Jaguar had the full support of the higher ups at Apple. Cognac did not.
I realize I was mistaken in my original post; the death of Jaguar was in part caused by Moto having trouble manufacturing the chip design created by Martin, but the OS wasn't ready either. (Was this OS "Pink" perhaps? Or was it Taligent?) Anyway, there was a massive fight between Martin and Heinen and Martin left. The project died.
Steven Levy writes though, that Jaguar did live on, and that it intended to be the high end of the original Apple PowerMac lineup, codenamed "Tesseract", coexisting with Cognac, which originally was supposed to have created the low-end PowerMac. Only after they failed to get the project off the ground in time for the PM's shipping date was the project killed...the 7100 and the 8100 were last minute solutions to fill in the gap, created by extending the capabilities of the original low-end PowerMac (Cognac, one could assume.)
"Cognac" was the competing project. They saw the same role for RISC in Apple's future, but unlike Jaguar, they wanted 68k compatibility, something Jagual foolishly disregarded. To tackle the problem they considered dual-CPU machines with RISC and 68k chips on the mobo, or using a RISC chip with a built-in 68k emulator. They chose the latter for cost reasons and simplicity. Another key difference is that they actually built working prototypes that could run both RISC-native software and older 68k software. To my knowledge, Jaguar never got up to that stage, even though Jaguar's team had a head start in terms of development time. According to Levy, Cognac's emulation environment even ran old "pre-Fat Macintosh" software. Apparently, the project evolved into the 6100, and when Jaguar/Tesseract died, it mutated into the 7100 and 8100 to take its place.
That's all I know about "Cognac" and "Jaguar". I really suggest you get the books "Insanely Great" and "AppleDesign" to learn more; these are probably the two best books you can get on Apple's history, along with Apple Confidential. As for what was said about the 88000, NeXT and AIM, I don't know. It sounds reasonable, though.
As for Jaguar's chip being the "88000", I honestly don't know. I made the connection after seeing someone's post where someone put up a list of all of the desktop and desktop-related CPUs Moto had made. (According to what I remember, he said that the 88000 was the chip Moto made for Apple's first failed RISC attempt--which I assumed was Jaguar.)
Well there is a thing called gas welding that is different than electric arc welding, or maybe the cases were silver soldered shut. or maybe they were laser-welded
<strong>The NeXT RISC Workstation was a dual 88000 machine that ran NeXTStep 3.2. One 88000 ran the system; the other ran the display as well as the NTSC/PAL video I/O. The NS3.2 port for the NRW directly led to OSX.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This reminds me of a post someone (Dorsal?) put up here once saying that in days of old Apple was using quad-G4 prototypes to power the Aqua interface, with one devoted to windowing, another devoted to the Genie Effect, etc. I don't know how credible this sounds, (I admit it's a stretch) but it is interesting. Also, I remember seeing here a cool screenshot of an early OS X "easter egg" where someone went spelunking into the system's innards and found a hidden resource housing all of the NeXT OS's interface elements, placed in an area where it led to the inference that OS X could use them if someone know how to enable it.
<strong>Well there is a thing called gas welding that is different than electric arc welding, or maybe the cases were silver soldered shut. or maybe they were laser-welded</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was about to post the same thing. Laser welders are used for everything from jewelry, to dentistry, to ship building. It is entirely plausible that Apple engineers would have access to a laser welder to help fabricate custom parts for prototypes.
A pulsed YAG laser doesn't create a magnetic field at the weld point and is fast and precise enough to spot weld while not heating up the surrounding area.
Well there is a thing called gas welding that is different than electric arc welding, or maybe the cases were silver soldered shut. or maybe they were laser-welded
I was about to post the same thing. Laser welders are used for everything from jewelry, to dentistry, to ship building. It is entirely plausible that Apple engineers would have access to a laser welder to help fabricate custom parts for prototypes.
A pulsed YAG laser doesn't create a magnetic field at the weld point and is fast and precise enough to spot weld while not heating up the surrounding area.
Comments
<strong>
The talk swirling around the Mot G5 also mentions that they had a bad habit of exploding inside the cases. </strong><hr></blockquote>
:eek: No wonder they were welding the cases shut! It was a safety precaution. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>"Hmmm. That's interesting. A CPU that would go with Jaguar. And Moto' stuffed up. That would kinda make sense. [ 01-18-2003: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not referring to Jaguar as in OS X 10.2, I meant Jaguar as in the Jaguar Project that was in competition with the Cognac Project to design Apple's answer to the Pentium PC's just being introduced, as well as the limitations of the 68k. I think someone here said that the chip was designated as the 88000. Anyway, everything was all set to go; Apple's IDg had the case set, and the OS was ready, just that Moto "stuffed up". Internal politics at Apple also played a factor. It's kind of good that Jaguar died...their plan called on an architecture that was completely incompatible with 68k software.
There's also a very good chance that you actually *did* know what I mean and that I misunderstood you, so in that case, please feel free to ignore everything I've just said.
<strong> :eek: No wonder they were welding the cases shut! It was a safety precaution. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Makes me wonder what would have happened if they tried putting a G5 into a laptop form factor. And they said the PB 5300 had flaming performance...
<strong>
Makes me wonder what would have happened if they tried putting a G5 into a laptop form factor. And they said the PB 5300 had flaming performance...</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 17" Power book might be able to handle a G5.
It has a lot of extra space. Remember people did not think that a G4 could be placed in a labtop, yet alone one that is 1" thick.
Mmmmm ..... shrapnel ......
[/Homer mode]
<strong>
Like there's no high voltage electricity involved in spot welding? Get serious.
If they had a flange right around the case they could just put a pop-rivet or a bolt through it, or a commercial wire seal.
NO WELDED CASES!</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have got to relaxe, dude. First off, welded or not welded, the point is its just confirming sealed box's from apple.
Second, your going against a few dozen reports of WELDED-SHUT cases being shipped to developers. You may have your little theory on why welded cases are impossible, but people have SEEN them. So complain all you want. They exist.
In spite of my sarcasm, I'll chime in that I have seen electronics cases welded where in two flanges meet (like where a padlock might go) and those are spot welded shut. It allows for the weld to be broken easily since I'm sure they will want to get the components out of the box at some point.
It isn't really practical, but welding would just be a Jobsian kind of thing to do.
<strong>Like there's no high voltage electricity involved in spot welding? Get serious.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe that's why the G5 used to explode and Apple was to dumb to connect the two events.
<strong>
Like there's no high voltage electricity involved in spot welding? Get serious.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
well, there's no HV on the secondary side of the circuit, which does the actual welding. I did some work for company that made resistive welding robots & machines a few years back, and I seem to remember the secondary voltage being around 1.5V with a current around 60,000 Amps for a biggish spot welder. Of course, that would still give you a fairly serious magnetic field!
<strong>
I'm not referring to Jaguar as in OS X 10.2, I meant Jaguar as in the Jaguar Project that was in competition with the Cognac Project to design Apple's answer to the Pentium PC's just being introduced, as well as the limitations of the 68k. I think someone here said that the chip was designated as the 88000. Anyway, everything was all set to go; Apple's IDg had the case set, and the OS was ready, just that Moto "stuffed up". Internal politics at Apple also played a factor. It's kind of good that Jaguar died...their plan called on an architecture that was completely incompatible with 68k software.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The 88000, AFAIK, was Motorola's RISC based successor to the 68k. It was supposedly quite impressive. It's the first time I've heard the 88000 was an in-house Apple project. In any case, Apple decided to go with the PPC instead, and AIM chose to adopt some of the 88000's features in order to recoup some of the investment. I've never heard the 88000 would have been incompatible with 68k code, but even if it was, it isn't like the PPC (especially the 601) ran 68k code well either. I've also never heard of the project being referred to as Jaguar, and I'd love to know more about the Cognac project the poster refers to.
<strong>You may have your little theory on why welded cases are impossible, but people have SEEN them. So complain all you want. They exist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm.. ok, lets see here. We have, on someones 3rd party knowledge, that someone has seen these supposed welded machines. Now we also have some knowledge stating that welding a case is just not practial do to magentic fields (or electricity or something). So it comes down to do you believe rumor or fact. Me, personally, I believe in fact, but you can believe what YOU want.
To say that some guys "theory" on welding cases is nice, but these machines exist 100% because someone says they do is absoultly ridiculous. If I said I could fly, and 10 people here "confirm" it, but one person said that is not possible because of how physics work, would you believe me saying I could fly? That is basicly what you are saying now.
<strong> If I said I could fly, and 10 people here "confirm" it, but one person said that is not possible because of how physics work, would you believe me saying I could fly? That is basicly what you are saying now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, you can fly. There's a device called a plane that makes it possible.
There is also a device, called a ground, that makes it possible to spot weld a shielded metallic box without damaging sensitive electronic equipment inside.
But who cares. The point is that we will never know what was in these purported G5 boxen.
A few prototypes survived the 1992 NeXT hardware Steveing.
The NS3.2 port for the NRW directly led to OSX.
<strong>
Actually, you can fly. There's a device called a plane that makes it possible.
There is also a device, called a ground, that makes it possible to spot weld a shielded metallic box without damaging sensitive electronic equipment inside.
But who cares. The point is that we will never know what was in these purported G5 boxen.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They dont understand this, and even if they do, they're so intent on keeping the position they already took that they will continue to argue the fact.
<strong>
Actually, you can fly. There's a device called a plane that makes it possible.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bah, come on you had to know what I meant. I meant that I couldn't go jump off a cliff and flap really extra hard and start flying. My whole point is just because some people say it is true, that doesn't make it true.
So to say that there are welded cases because you, your friend, and this guy from this building say they exist doens't make them exist 100%. Miami Craig said:
[quote]people have SEEN them. So complain all you want. They exist<hr></blockquote>
Which could be true or false, we dont know for certain. Honestly there is no way to say one way or the other. There will be the crowd that believes it all, and there will be the skeptics. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and nothing you can say will change mine. The only way for everyone to finally agree is if Apple publicly came out and said they had shipped welded boxes out (which we all know will not happen).
So whatever. Flame away!
[ 01-21-2003: Message edited by: kupan787 ]</p>
<strong>...It's the first time I've heard the 88000 was an in-house Apple project. In any case, Apple decided to go with the PPC instead, and AIM chose to adopt some of the 88000's features in order to recoup some of the investment....I've also never heard of the project being referred to as Jaguar, and I'd love to know more about the Cognac project the poster refers to.</strong><hr></blockquote>
According to Paul Kunkel's "AppleDesign: The Work of The Apple Industrial Design Group", Jaguar was the project that was supposed to be the future of Apple. They knew stuff like real-time 3D graphics, video teleconferencing, and real-time video editing/viewing was coming to the desktop computer soon; and they thought that that RISC was the only way to do it. The three people behind the project were Hugh Martin (who supposedly held a lot of sway w/in Apple at the time), Roger Heinen and Tom Bentley. Martin was responsible for leading the design of the chip that would power it, Heinen was responsible for supplying the OS it would run, and Bentley was responsible for the case design. I've also read this in Steven Levy's "Insanely Great", though he doesn't mention Martin, Heinen, or Bentley. Jaguar had the full support of the higher ups at Apple. Cognac did not.
I realize I was mistaken in my original post; the death of Jaguar was in part caused by Moto having trouble manufacturing the chip design created by Martin, but the OS wasn't ready either. (Was this OS "Pink" perhaps? Or was it Taligent?) Anyway, there was a massive fight between Martin and Heinen and Martin left. The project died.
Steven Levy writes though, that Jaguar did live on, and that it intended to be the high end of the original Apple PowerMac lineup, codenamed "Tesseract", coexisting with Cognac, which originally was supposed to have created the low-end PowerMac. Only after they failed to get the project off the ground in time for the PM's shipping date was the project killed...the 7100 and the 8100 were last minute solutions to fill in the gap, created by extending the capabilities of the original low-end PowerMac (Cognac, one could assume.)
"Cognac" was the competing project. They saw the same role for RISC in Apple's future, but unlike Jaguar, they wanted 68k compatibility, something Jagual foolishly disregarded. To tackle the problem they considered dual-CPU machines with RISC and 68k chips on the mobo, or using a RISC chip with a built-in 68k emulator. They chose the latter for cost reasons and simplicity. Another key difference is that they actually built working prototypes that could run both RISC-native software and older 68k software. To my knowledge, Jaguar never got up to that stage, even though Jaguar's team had a head start in terms of development time. According to Levy, Cognac's emulation environment even ran old "pre-Fat Macintosh" software. Apparently, the project evolved into the 6100, and when Jaguar/Tesseract died, it mutated into the 7100 and 8100 to take its place.
That's all I know about "Cognac" and "Jaguar". I really suggest you get the books "Insanely Great" and "AppleDesign" to learn more; these are probably the two best books you can get on Apple's history, along with Apple Confidential. As for what was said about the 88000, NeXT and AIM, I don't know. It sounds reasonable, though.
As for Jaguar's chip being the "88000", I honestly don't know. I made the connection after seeing someone's post where someone put up a list of all of the desktop and desktop-related CPUs Moto had made. (According to what I remember, he said that the 88000 was the chip Moto made for Apple's first failed RISC attempt--which I assumed was Jaguar.)
[ 01-21-2003: Message edited by: rampancy ]</p>
<strong>The NeXT RISC Workstation was a dual 88000 machine that ran NeXTStep 3.2. One 88000 ran the system; the other ran the display as well as the NTSC/PAL video I/O. The NS3.2 port for the NRW directly led to OSX.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This reminds me of a post someone (Dorsal?) put up here once saying that in days of old Apple was using quad-G4 prototypes to power the Aqua interface, with one devoted to windowing, another devoted to the Genie Effect, etc. I don't know how credible this sounds, (I admit it's a stretch) but it is interesting. Also, I remember seeing here a cool screenshot of an early OS X "easter egg" where someone went spelunking into the system's innards and found a hidden resource housing all of the NeXT OS's interface elements, placed in an area where it led to the inference that OS X could use them if someone know how to enable it.
Well, I don't know. Comments, anyone?
<strong>Well there is a thing called gas welding that is different than electric arc welding, or maybe the cases were silver soldered shut. or maybe they were laser-welded</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was about to post the same thing. Laser welders are used for everything from jewelry, to dentistry, to ship building. It is entirely plausible that Apple engineers would have access to a laser welder to help fabricate custom parts for prototypes.
A pulsed YAG laser doesn't create a magnetic field at the weld point and is fast and precise enough to spot weld while not heating up the surrounding area.
Originally posted by Bigc:
Well there is a thing called gas welding that is different than electric arc welding, or maybe the cases were silver soldered shut. or maybe they were laser-welded
I was about to post the same thing. Laser welders are used for everything from jewelry, to dentistry, to ship building. It is entirely plausible that Apple engineers would have access to a laser welder to help fabricate custom parts for prototypes.
A pulsed YAG laser doesn't create a magnetic field at the weld point and is fast and precise enough to spot weld while not heating up the surrounding area.
Yep, it's not rocket science (anymore)
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: Bigc ]
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: Bigc ]</p>