Bittorrent and Network Television

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2014
This is potentially a stupid question, but is it illegal to use something like Bittorrent to download an episode of a television show that was broadcast on one of the major OTA networks, like NBCCBSABC?



I ask because a friend of mine got a STOPDOWNLOADINGOURDAMNEDSHOW letter today, but he was downloading episodes of a show that hasn't YET aired in America. But what about shows that have aired in America? And for free? If I can make a videotape of a show and then send it to as many people as I like, can I also download as many episodes of a show as I want?



Cheers

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 14
    I don't think that there is a cut an' dry answer to this. People play it both way but ultimately I believe a case can be made for it as theft but they did play it over public air-waves and i think that's the price they pay for using TV as a form of entertainment. Who know, I may be wrong. But I wouldn't worry if I was your friend.
  • Reply 2 of 14
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    The digging around that I've done has led me to think that the problem is that the material (especially with bittorrent) is also being uploaded, and so for some bizarre reason, this constitutes broadcasting.



    Even still, that doesn't make any sense to me, since I can legally do the same thing with a videotape. The only way it makes sense is that if the slow progression of bits outbound from my computer is strictly regarded as a "broadcast."
  • Reply 3 of 14
    You may be getting confused with the fact that generally they sue the person who is making the file (or rather, usually large numbers of files) available for download on p2p (or http, ftp etc.) rather than the downloaders. Slightly trickier with regard to bittorrent as everyone who downloads also uploads.



    The people who simply download are generally hassled by their ISP for sucking up bandwidth rather than copyright violations.



    I don't think the television concept of 'broadcast' actually has much impact. I think it's worth bearing in mind that lending a videotape to a friend is probably illegal too, as is 'public performance' of DVDs (at schools etc.) even if they never do anything about it.



    Remember they tried to ban the videorecorder itself, and are trying to push a broadcast flag that will make the next generation of digital VCRs refuse to record programs that don't want to be recorded.
  • Reply 4 of 14
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    I don't know, but I'd guess it would be covered under the same copyright laws that make it illegal to duplicate and distribute movies or music. Why would it be different?
  • Reply 5 of 14
    emcemc Posts: 27member
    Quote:

    Why would it be different?



    Well, because the broadcast companies like ABC, CBS, and NBC are using public airwaves to broadcast, and the shows and programs are free to anyone with an antenna. As long as I am not making any profit from sharing my copy of last weeks "Lost" there should be no problem with it. The broadcasters already shared it with the public, and that is all I am doing.
  • Reply 6 of 14
    dogcowdogcow Posts: 713member
    It's still illegal. You can copy tv shows for personal use. (The batamax decision) You can't make 5000 copies of that VHS/DVD and give it to your friends. Even if the orginal broadcast was "free" it is still copyrighted and protected under all those laws. So yes, copying and distributing (uploading) a broadcast show would technically be against fair use. I would guess that downloading would also be illigal under the same laws. Networks could also make the argument that this practice is hurting business by lowering ratings and ad revenue (but that's a bit of a stretch.)
  • Reply 7 of 14
    Quote:

    Originally posted by midwinter

    If I can make a videotape of a show and then send it to as many people as I like...



    Actually, you can't. It's like the old thing about "may not be rebroadcast without express written permission" that you hear mentioned at the end of a sports broadcast. Copyright is still copyright. You can't copy text from the NY Times in full and place it on your website. Yes, you can quote, but you can't present fully without a context for quoting.



    But getting back to the original title.

    I could see network television offering limited-time torrents - if they ever get their heads out of their asses. Kind of the way you can get show snippets on their networks (eg. Tonight Show clips on NBC in WMP).
  • Reply 8 of 14
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JimDreamworx

    Actually, you can't. It's like the old thing about "may not be rebroadcast without express written permission" that you hear mentioned at the end of a sports broadcast. Copyright is still copyright. You can't copy text from the NY Times in full and place it on your website. Yes, you can quote, but you can't present fully without a context for quoting.



    Sure. But isn't the spirit of the law that I can't charge admission to have people over to watch a DVD? It's not that I can't maintain copies and watch them for personal use, or send copies of the tape to a friend for personal use?



    This is all just baffling. I can capture the video on my Mac. I can capture it on my Tivo. I can stream it to other computers in the house via Eye Home or TivoToGo. I can videotape. I can edit out commercials. But I can't send a tape to a friend?





    Quote:

    But getting back to the original title.

    I could see network television offering limited-time torrents - if they ever get their heads out of their asses. Kind of the way you can get show snippets on their networks (eg. Tonight Show clips on NBC in WMP). [/B]



    Indeed. Yes. Wholeheartedly agree. I'd even watch if the commercials were intact. This is specifically a question for me because of ABC's "Lost," which I came into at episode 12 and was utterly hooked, so I grabbed the rest of the eps I'd not seen. In turn, I've gotten about 4 other people hooked. If I had to wait for re-broadcast from the networks, I'd have never gotten caught up and wouldn't care much about the show.



    Harumph. Networks! get your heads out of your asses!
  • Reply 9 of 14
    torifiletorifile Posts: 4,024member
    With BT you never ever upload a useable version of ANYthing until you're done downloading it. I could be trying to download some episodes of Lost for a week and if it never finishes, no matter how much I upload have I distributed a copy of it.



    Unless they could prove that I uploaded a full useable version *from my own computer* (read: every byte that a person has downloaded originated from my computer) I don't think that I've done anything wrong. I'd love to see a case like this brought to trial because there's nothing wrong with having the content, it's the distribution that's questionable.
  • Reply 10 of 14
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by torifile

    With BT you never ever upload a useable version of ANYthing until you're done downloading it. I could be trying to download some episodes of Lost for a week and if it never finishes, no matter how much I upload have I distributed a copy of it.



    Unless they could prove that I uploaded a full useable version *from my own computer* (read: every byte that a person has downloaded originated from my computer) I don't think that I've done anything wrong. I'd love to see a case like this brought to trial because there's nothing wrong with having the content, it's the distribution that's questionable.




    Well, they don't go after YOU. They go after your ISP and threaten to sue. It's cheaper for your ISP to threaten to take away your connection if you don't stop.
  • Reply 11 of 14
    dogcowdogcow Posts: 713member
    VCR, DVD-R, TIVO are all legal because they are for personal use. Meaning they can be used to record and playback for one person. (The one who owns the device and has legal access to the content.) Any distribution of that content is still illigal. Generally it would be concidered legally acceptable to give your single copy to a friend or family member. However making additional copies of the content is a violation of the copyright. In a similar maner its legal to have a copy of a program on your computer if you recoreded it and have rights to it. Distributing copies of that content is a violation of the fair use.



    The problem is that the DMCA violates some past rulings of the courts and so now there are many unanswered questions around this subject.



    See: Sony v. Universal City Studios

    Ten Friends Law
  • Reply 12 of 14
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Dogcow

    VCR, DVD-R, TIVO are all legal because they are for personal use. Meaning they can be used to record and playback for one person. (The one who owns the device and has legal access to the content.) Any distribution of that content is still illigal. Generally it would be concidered legally acceptable to give your single copy to a friend or family member. However making additional copies of the content is a violation of the copyright. In a similar maner its legal to have a copy of a program on your computer if you recoreded it and have rights to it. Distributing copies of that content is a violation of the fair use.



    The problem is that the DMCA violates some past rulings of the courts and so now there are many unanswered questions around this subject.



    See: Sony v. Universal City Studios

    Ten Friends Law




    And yet I can "broadcast" the Tivo files from my Tivo and onto another computer.



    I'm so fekkin' sick of this stupid notion of copyright I could puke. A botched 18th-century idea.
  • Reply 13 of 14
    dogcowdogcow Posts: 713member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by midwinter

    And yet I can "broadcast" the Tivo files from my Tivo and onto another computer.



    Yes, to your computer only. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you are allowed.



    Quote:

    I'm so fekkin' sick of this stupid notion of copyright I could puke. A botched 18th-century idea.



    I agree compleatly. It's an intersting area to study, but sometimes you just want to punch the people who come up with this stuff. However, I do understand the fear of companies and why it's so difficult to settle on what is "fair" use as the technology changes.
  • Reply 14 of 14
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Dogcow

    Yes, to your computer only. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you are allowed.



    No, I mean that I can use official and legal Tivo technology to get the video off my Tivo and onto any computer on my network (whether or not I own it).
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