IBM has yet too deliver anything of substance, for whatever reason. Just a note of caution, disinterest can be just as deadly to Apple as ineptitude. Pick you PPC supplier and pick you poison. IBM has not delivered anything faster than Mot since the debut of the original G4's. Even now, supposedly the fastest chip they make is a 1Ghz G3, barely two thirds the clock rate of the fastest G4 and without the only thing that keeps PPC's respectable (altivec).
GOBI will not arrive untill well after the PPC970, so IBM has been equally incapable of pumping up the PPC. According to early IBM statements we should have been using 2Ghz G3's by now. Untill the 970 arrives, IBM has done even less for the mac the Moto.
[quote] My take on L3 cache (and the paltry 128MB soldered ram) is that Apple doesn't want to make the 15" look outdated. <hr></blockquote>
I suppose that this might be one side of Apple's take on it. I just would have hoped that they would consider that there is enough difference between them that putting a L3 cache in the 12" would not rip sales from the 15"
[quote] Why would anybody buy the 15" PB if the 12 has = specs <hr></blockquote>
Plenty of people want the 12" for the small size. Plenty of people want the 15" for the screen real estate. Nobody wants to edit video on a 1024x768 screen. 1280x854 is acceptable for Final Cut.
[quote] haha, i'm sorry guys but i love how you complain about the 12" not having stuff that YOU want because you can't afford the 15" or u don't want to wait to buy the 15" when its revised. apple put what it wanted into it, ur complaining isn't changing it.
i want a 1.2GHz G3 with 1.5GB RAM in an 12" pbook but i dont see that happening
...and i want it cheaper then it is now too <hr></blockquote>
I love it how you completely miss the point, at last mine. Thread was not started as a complaint, thread was started as an inquiry. I wouldn't buy a 12" over a 15" because of price, I would buy it because of the portability. If it will forever be severely crippled by lacking L3 cache, something that seems so simple to throw in, I'd be as well off with an iBook and a few hundred still in my pocket. I'm willing to pay MORE for some L3 cache considering that it will get me better performance.
On a side note, this is quoted from Apple's website on the hardware page...
"PowerBook G4. Uncompromising performance in three sizes (12-, 15- and 17-inch screens), with SuperDrive and speeds up to 1GHz."
Uncompromising? It says uncompromising performance? Ditching the L3 cache on the 12" is a compromise in my book. I guess I do have a complaint.
Look the 12" PB is a lure for those that would be buying an iBook for the size. The 12" PB blows the 12" iBook out of the water and thats what it was supposed to do. Its an entry level PB and it rocks. I got one for my wife and every time she needs it she has to pry it out of my hands <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> he only complaints I have about it are 1. it gets kinda hot 2. the desktop sounds tend to take a second to play the first time (prolly because the HD has spun down) 3. the trackpad needs more options, like a general mode and a fine mode with a keystroke shortcut. Things I love about it? It looks so damned cool, it works better than my imac, the screen is brighter than my imac (17"), i can hook it up to my tv with the included s-video adapter. Now I'm gonna go load Diablo II on it and see how it does. See ya! <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" />
The 12" needs two models: one for people that just want an aluminum G4 iBook(867 G4, no L3, 256 MB ram, 40 gb HD, 32 MB VRAM, VGA- out) and one for the pro photographers, wanting to do touch-up with Photoshop while on an African safari, or on the go video people, wanting to have as little extra weight as possible because their VX-2000 wighs so frickin' much <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> (1ghz G4, L3, 512 MB ram, 60GB HD, 64 MB VRAM, DVI out). That would be good.
...and there for the 12" has videospanning as option so people can work on a formac2010 (1600x1200pixels) and have their tools on the 12" screen...
Um...one question, Gar. I thought that the Formac displays were only ADC/DVI, with no VGA support. Is there a VGA-DVI converter box that actually has high quality output? I know that Xtend-it makes a VGA-DVI-ADC converter box, but Macworld gave it a 2 out of 5 because the quality sucked. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Not to mention the fact that 32 MB VRAM is the dead minimum for working on a 1200 X 1600 display, and video pros will want the smoothest playback that they can get.
...and there for the 12" has videospanning as option so people can work on a formac2010 (1600x1200pixels) and have their tools on the 12" screen...
Um...one question, Gar. I thought that the Formac displays were only ADC/DVI, with no VGA support. Is there a VGA-DVI converter box that actually has high quality output? I know that Xtend-it makes a VGA-DVI-ADC converter box, but Macworld gave it a 2 out of 5 because the quality sucked. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Not to mention the fact that 32 MB VRAM is the dead minimum for working on a 1200 X 1600 display, and video pros will want the smoothest playback that they can get.
your right, i thought of that the moment i pressed the reply button and expected there to be a adapter of some kind to solve this problem... not so.
still... you can hook a decent crt screen on your 12"pb that's a main selling point over a 12" ibook.
and i don't believe your videopro will use a 12" pb to edit video. so if he does than he choose to do so and there is no problem: he got the smoothest video playback he can get for that pricepoint.
Why do people insist on buying Apple displays for use with VGA/DVI computers. OK, DVI isn't much of a problem for ADC, the adaptors are reasonable and perform well, but why are you going to overspend on an Apple Display to then overspend again on an expensive VGA-DVI/ADC converter, when you can buy a high quality display that accepts both VGA ad DVI input? Get one of those and make your life simpler.
bloody thging isn't here yet, wednesday, 2 more days not including today, yay!
right about the power, but for a subnote, G4's are fine, and for notebooks in general, G4's are OK.
the performance of a g3 isn't even that far behind p3-4M untill you look at streaming media or 3-d. I've used some of the fastest DELL laptops going 1.6-2Ghz P4M and they're nowhere near as fast as their desktop counterparts. X86 mobile chips aren't even close to desktops, but ther desktops are pretty darned amazing right now. Apple needs a 970 badly; though, .13u G4 (w/ 512kb L2) should push the laptops along nicely for another 18 months when they finally arrive.
Desktops just need more. Even Apple's high-end laptops are starting to feel the squeze, though there isn't anything the pb12's size that sports as much power.
I sure hope Apple gives me a reason to get a tower, or consumer headless machine! (think cube redux) by the end of '03. Something powerful, upgradeable, and well under 1500usd, closer to 999 in fact.
It is absolutely absurd that the entry iBook can come in cheaper than the entry iMac.
The thing about Apple portables is that while at max speed, they are slightly slower than PC notebooks, when the PC notebooks throttle down to save power, the Apple 'books blast them out of the water, because the PPC is so power-efficient, that it doesn't need to be as conservative to save power. The PPC is an ideal portable processor.
12" PB uses PPC 7445, not 7455. Smaller footprint due to the lack of L3 cache interface (25 vs 29 mm I believe), saving additional space. There were pics on a japanese site a couple of weeks ago. Because the 7445 in the 12" is smaller and has fewer pins than the 7455 (because 7445 doesn't support L3 cache), it seems relatively unlikely that Apple will be upgrading the 12" with L3 cache soon as they will need to rework the motherboard to make space for both the L3 cache and a bigger (and non-pin compatible) chip, not to mention the inherent heat/power issues of adding the L3. Not a simple "drop-in" replacement.
Also the developer docs are vague on max RAM in the 12" PB-in the future it may be possible to use larger than 512MB modules to exceed 640MB total RAM. From the dev note, regarding RAM:
Sizes of RAM expansion DIMMs and devices:
128 MB 16 M x 64 1 8 128 Mbit 16 M x 8
128 MB 16 M x 64 2 8 128 Mbit 8 M x 16
256 MB 16 M x 64 2 16 128 Mbit 16 M x 8
256 MB 16 M x 64 2 8 256 Mbit 16 M x 16
256 MB 32 M x 64 1 8 256 Mbit 32 M x 8
256 MB 32 M x 64 2 8 256 Mbit 16 M x 16
512 MB 64 M x 64 2 16 256 Mbit 32 M x 8
* 1GB 128 x 64 2 512 Mbit x 8
* 1 GB is a theoretical max and is reserved for future expansion. 1 GB dual die
In the future, could there be a DIMM module that exceeds 512 MB of RAM? ecause then that would put the Powermac up to 4 GB, the iMac/Powerbook to 2 MB, etc. Or is the capacity of a RAM module limited by the memory addressing?
[quote] 12" PB uses PPC 7445, not 7455. Smaller footprint due to the lack of L3 cache interface (25 vs 29 mm I believe), saving additional space. There were pics on a japanese site a couple of weeks ago. Because the 7445 in the 12" is smaller and has fewer pins than the 7455 (because 7445 doesn't support L3 cache), it seems relatively unlikely that Apple will be upgrading the 12" with L3 cache soon as they will need to rework the motherboard to make space for both the L3 cache and a bigger (and non-pin compatible) chip, not to mention the inherent heat/power issues of adding the L3. Not a simple "drop-in" replacement. <hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the info. I was fearing this sort of thing, but now I know not to hope for it anytime in the near future.
Don't fear too much, the PB12 runs neck and neck with the Ti867 in most actual application tests. See the recent Macworld review: The 12 stays with 5-10% of the Ti867 in all tests, not bad at all considering the lack of L3 was supposed to cripple the babybook. Not bad at all considering the size.
It's small, heat dissapation and power drain becomes an issue. When .13u G4's arrive, the L2 will jump to 512KB and power consumption will drop while bus speed gets another little bump. The larger books will then speed along with sppeds to equal the fastest G4's, the babybook will have to be a little slower for heat reasons but it still has a lot of room to grow.
Comments
<strong>Apple assumes that not many Photoshoppers and Finalcut editors will be drawn to a 768 X 1024 screen </strong><hr></blockquote>
and there for the 12" has videospanning as option so people can work on a formac2010 (1600x1200pixels) and have their tools on the 12" screen...
it will get L3 cache etc. but apple has to differentiate its market. they have not much room to grow now but in about 4-6 months they will
<strong>You want a G3 in a PowerBook?
yes but i was talking about the rumors IBM G3 with altivec...even without, i'd rather a 1.2G3 over a 800MHz G4
GOBI will not arrive untill well after the PPC970, so IBM has been equally incapable of pumping up the PPC. According to early IBM statements we should have been using 2Ghz G3's by now. Untill the 970 arrives, IBM has done even less for the mac the Moto.
I suppose that this might be one side of Apple's take on it. I just would have hoped that they would consider that there is enough difference between them that putting a L3 cache in the 12" would not rip sales from the 15"
[quote] Why would anybody buy the 15" PB if the 12 has = specs <hr></blockquote>
Plenty of people want the 12" for the small size. Plenty of people want the 15" for the screen real estate. Nobody wants to edit video on a 1024x768 screen. 1280x854 is acceptable for Final Cut.
[quote] haha, i'm sorry guys but i love how you complain about the 12" not having stuff that YOU want because you can't afford the 15" or u don't want to wait to buy the 15" when its revised. apple put what it wanted into it, ur complaining isn't changing it.
i want a 1.2GHz G3 with 1.5GB RAM in an 12" pbook but i dont see that happening
...and i want it cheaper then it is now too <hr></blockquote>
I love it how you completely miss the point, at last mine. Thread was not started as a complaint, thread was started as an inquiry. I wouldn't buy a 12" over a 15" because of price, I would buy it because of the portability. If it will forever be severely crippled by lacking L3 cache, something that seems so simple to throw in, I'd be as well off with an iBook and a few hundred still in my pocket. I'm willing to pay MORE for some L3 cache considering that it will get me better performance.
On a side note, this is quoted from Apple's website on the hardware page...
"PowerBook G4. Uncompromising performance in three sizes (12-, 15- and 17-inch screens), with SuperDrive and speeds up to 1GHz."
Uncompromising? It says uncompromising performance? Ditching the L3 cache on the 12" is a compromise in my book. I guess I do have a complaint.
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: FrostyMMB ]</p>
haha that PR person would be fired quickly
...and there for the 12" has videospanning as option so people can work on a formac2010 (1600x1200pixels) and have their tools on the 12" screen...
Um...one question, Gar. I thought that the Formac displays were only ADC/DVI, with no VGA support. Is there a VGA-DVI converter box that actually has high quality output? I know that Xtend-it makes a VGA-DVI-ADC converter box, but Macworld gave it a 2 out of 5 because the quality sucked. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Not to mention the fact that 32 MB VRAM is the dead minimum for working on a 1200 X 1600 display, and video pros will want the smoothest playback that they can get.
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: os10geek ]</p>
<strong>Originally posted ny Gar:
...and there for the 12" has videospanning as option so people can work on a formac2010 (1600x1200pixels) and have their tools on the 12" screen...
Um...one question, Gar. I thought that the Formac displays were only ADC/DVI, with no VGA support. Is there a VGA-DVI converter box that actually has high quality output? I know that Xtend-it makes a VGA-DVI-ADC converter box, but Macworld gave it a 2 out of 5 because the quality sucked. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Not to mention the fact that 32 MB VRAM is the dead minimum for working on a 1200 X 1600 display, and video pros will want the smoothest playback that they can get.
[ 02-16-2003: Message edited by: os10geek ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
your right, i thought of that the moment i pressed the reply button and expected there to be a adapter of some kind to solve this problem... not so.
still... you can hook a decent crt screen on your 12"pb that's a main selling point over a 12" ibook.
and i don't believe your videopro will use a 12" pb to edit video. so if he does than he choose to do so and there is no problem: he got the smoothest video playback he can get for that pricepoint.
<hr></blockquote>
Hey, Matsu, didn't you get the 12 inch already?
Still, I did FINALLY see a 12 inch Powerbook in the flesh the other day.
Not bad. Not bad at all. Love the aluminium job.
Keyboard. That seems better.
Not sure about the performance...those icons bounced a bit too much for my liking... Cache 3 prob?
Still, overall, I think Apple just need to migrate to another ballpark in terms of CPU power.
Yeesh. 'X' just sucks too much juice out of these G3 'plus' cpus.
Everything just needs more zip. Let's hope come 2004 Jan'...Apple's cpu landscape looks a little more beefy.
Lemon Bon Bon
right about the power, but for a subnote, G4's are fine, and for notebooks in general, G4's are OK.
the performance of a g3 isn't even that far behind p3-4M untill you look at streaming media or 3-d. I've used some of the fastest DELL laptops going 1.6-2Ghz P4M and they're nowhere near as fast as their desktop counterparts. X86 mobile chips aren't even close to desktops, but ther desktops are pretty darned amazing right now. Apple needs a 970 badly; though, .13u G4 (w/ 512kb L2) should push the laptops along nicely for another 18 months when they finally arrive.
Desktops just need more. Even Apple's high-end laptops are starting to feel the squeze, though there isn't anything the pb12's size that sports as much power.
I sure hope Apple gives me a reason to get a tower, or consumer headless machine! (think cube redux) by the end of '03. Something powerful, upgradeable, and well under 1500usd, closer to 999 in fact.
It is absolutely absurd that the entry iBook can come in cheaper than the entry iMac.
Also the developer docs are vague on max RAM in the 12" PB-in the future it may be possible to use larger than 512MB modules to exceed 640MB total RAM. From the dev note, regarding RAM:
Sizes of RAM expansion DIMMs and devices:
128 MB 16 M x 64 1 8 128 Mbit 16 M x 8
128 MB 16 M x 64 2 8 128 Mbit 8 M x 16
256 MB 16 M x 64 2 16 128 Mbit 16 M x 8
256 MB 16 M x 64 2 8 256 Mbit 16 M x 16
256 MB 32 M x 64 1 8 256 Mbit 32 M x 8
256 MB 32 M x 64 2 8 256 Mbit 16 M x 16
512 MB 64 M x 64 2 16 256 Mbit 32 M x 8
* 1GB 128 x 64 2 512 Mbit x 8
* 1 GB is a theoretical max and is reserved for future expansion. 1 GB dual die
package is not supported.
Thanks for the info. I was fearing this sort of thing, but now I know not to hope for it anytime in the near future.
It's small, heat dissapation and power drain becomes an issue. When .13u G4's arrive, the L2 will jump to 512KB and power consumption will drop while bus speed gets another little bump. The larger books will then speed along with sppeds to equal the fastest G4's, the babybook will have to be a little slower for heat reasons but it still has a lot of room to grow.