The Powermac line for Apple is a big problem, and if you think otherwise then your only fooling yourself.
...
In the last quarter they said that they doubt they will ever go over 200 000 again, and said that pros are upgrading to the iMac G5 instead and that they would focus on total system sales as opposed to specific models.
There's no problem there. Apple makes sales. Many customers get by with iMacs. The ones who want more power, will still buy Powermacs.
This is a problem about as much as personal computer was a "problem" to the companies who made both supercomputers and personal computers. They might have sold fewer supercomputers while the PC market exploded. Both company and customers still won.
Apple has a reason for not making big announcements in advance. Their customer base is not like Dell's. Unlike big businesses, a lot of Apple's customers don't have a rigid buy schedule and will wait if they know exactly when a next revision is coming. For inventory reasons it costs more for everybody, and delivery times grow, if sales tank before a release and spike afterwards. Of course this happens anyway, since people predict the releases and like to buy shiny new models, but probably the effect is smaller.
For technical and inventory reasons Apple can't make constant incremental upgrades like Dell does to keep the machines flowing, either. Personally I think Apple could just steadily (as in, monthly) drop the prices of all models that are out.
I think the main problem is that a lot of folk, like myself, are wanting to buy a new PowerMac but don't want to get stung with a new machine which gets upgraded or re-priced maybe less than a month after purchase!
When you buy a $700 PC it doesn't hurt quite as much but when you shell out $2500 it kills you!
I think the main problem is that a lot of folk, like myself, are wanting to buy a new PowerMac but don't want to get stung with a new machine which gets upgraded or re-priced maybe less than a month after purchase!
When you buy a $700 PC it doesn't hurt quite as much but when you shell out $2500 it kills you!
Might I point out you are not actually losing anything there? The computer you bought is still the same.
Anyway, that is why I said (and this you quoted) that I think the prices of existing models should constantly drop. Then the gap to the next model, whenever that comes out, would be small. Anything you buy would have a fresh price, so mostly it would not matter much if you hold out or not.
Example -
3.5GHz X-Mac goes for $2000, 4GHz X-Mac goes for $2500
models stay the same for seven months before an update, price drops every month
right before upgrades, 3.5GHz X-Mac has fallen to $1700, 4GHz X-Mac is $2100
upgrade: 4GHz X-Mac at $2000 as the new low end; new 4.5GHz X-Mac is $2500
... Professionals should be the absolute last people worrying if their gear is "new". ... Their customer base is not like Dell's. Unlike big businesses, a lot of Apple's customers don't have a rigid buy schedule and will wait if they know exactly when a next revision is coming. ...
Two very good points. First, as a professional, I usually buy the last generation - I stay off the bleeding edge. Reliability is more important than performance.
Second, anyone who lived thru the Osborne Computer fiasco knows you should never preannounce your next model. The preannouncement of the Executive II killed their company. My company, and many others, were stuck with older models which we couldn't sell. Sales went to zero, and the company went out of business. It was brutal and horrible.
Might I point out you are not actually losing anything there? The computer you bought is still the same.
Anyway, that is why I said (and this you quoted) that I think the prices of existing models should constantly drop. Then the gap to the next model, whenever that comes out, would be small. Anything you buy would have a fresh price, so mostly it would not matter much if you hold out or not.
Example -
3.5GHz X-Mac goes for $2000, 4GHz X-Mac goes for $2500
models stay the same for seven months before an update, price drops every month
right before upgrades, 3.5GHz X-Mac has fallen to $1700, 4GHz X-Mac is $2100
upgrade: 4GHz X-Mac at $2000 as the new low end; new 4.5GHz X-Mac is $2500
and so on.
What?! Wait. The point I was trying to make is that in reality (and this HAS happened to me) if you buy a G5 1.8MP for £1349 in early March and in late April that same machine is reduced to £1149 or is 2.0MP spec. you do feel just a little pissed at Apple. It's NOT the same machine in your head - it's either as case of "it's now cheaper" or "I could have bought a slightly better model for the same money".\
Don't get me wrong here, I fully understand that there will always be something better and faster "around the corner" but sometimes it does feel like you've done the wrong thing when the specs./prices change so close after to your purchase.
As a switcher I must say that Apple should focus on the iMac. It is a wonderful machine no matter what a lot of you "professional" mac users say!
I have never been more happy with a computer and I bet that any person who has struggled with the windows environment will feel the same. I paid the "Mac premium" with a smile on my face!
The PowerMac might be the Apple flagship, but it is the iMac that has the potential! So, please, dear Apple, do focus your attention on this wonderful product and you will soon have enough money to solve your PowerMac troubles. Go iMac!!!
Anyway, that is why I said (and this you quoted) that I think the prices of existing models should constantly drop. Then the gap to the next model, whenever that comes out, would be small. Anything you buy would have a fresh price, so mostly it would not matter much if you hold out or not.
While I think this is a GREAT idea, methinks Apple would never adopt it. That being the case, it is easy to understand the reluctance of someone paying full price for a 10 month old machine, the fervor in researching potential updates, and the importance of timing in Mac purchasing decisions.
What?! Wait. The point I was trying to make is that in reality (and this HAS happened to me) if you buy a G5 1.8MP for £1349 in early March and in late April that same machine is reduced to £1149
£1349 - £1149 = £200.
£200 / 50 days = £4
So you pay £4 a day for having the machine...
Quote:
or is 2.0MP spec.
... or you miss out on 10% performance, which for most purposes is totally imperceptible.
There are bad cases of these gaps between revisions. This is definitely on the small side.
I'm going to try to upgrade my notebook, with every Powerbook release. Macs hold a decent resale value, and you don't lose a lot, when you upgrade early-on.
I'm going to try to upgrade my notebook, with every Powerbook release. Macs hold a decent resale value, and you don't lose a lot, when you upgrade early-on.
I got almost the same thing going on, but I'm not release-centric, I'm warranty-centric. (even if it amounts to much the same buy/sell schedule...)
Buying AppleCare seems like a huge waste of money. It's very expensive on laptops, and I don't expect a desktop to break anyway.
I hear a broken laptop without Applecare is a real money sink.
People like to buy used computers still in warranty, so they are covered against problems that come up.
It follows I must sell every computer no later than at the 11 month mark, and get a new one.
I'm not currently running Powerbook, I switched to an iBook, which is even better for this scheme. It's cheaper so I don't lose as much by devaluation.
This slow upgrade cycle is just how things are with Apple, and it's been that way since the last century.
Apple moves small volumes compared to other computer manufacturers. It means Apple has to spread the R&D costs out over a longer period, and so fewer updates. Apple could probably afford the R&D if that's all it took, but there's also the cost of retooling the manufacturing facilities, retraining the slave labor, and clearing the sales channels and then priming them with new product. Every time Apple releases an update, there's a good month long lag between the announcement and new product availability, meaning no profits for Apple during this time. Yeah Apple could probably do this better, but that's where they're at.
The low volume also means a tiny carrot for Apple's component suppliers. Not a big deal for stuff like RAM or HDs, where Apple simply gets a smaller volume discount than Dell, but a huge problem for Apple-specific parts. IBM simply doesn't feel motivated to get desktop PPC designs out quickly without a huge sales volume lighting a fire under their collective asses. It was the same with Moto, but with a good helping of incompetence thrown into the mix.
As long as Apple is dealing with relatively small volumes, it will be a miracle every time they deliver new Powermacs that are truly competitive with the Wintel world. We need to get used to it. For those of us who remember the Motorola years, it's easy. I just feel bad for recent switchers, or professionals who earn a living on their Macs.
Are you naturally obnoxious, or is it something you've been working on yout entire life?
Are you naturally stupid, or do you double the amount of threads on the same subject in forum you visit? The thread already exists, all you have to do is USE THE SEARCH. or LOOK. Its right in the top 6 threads
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH I really cant take it anymore...im chugging along on a Dual 500 G4 and I was supposed to upgrade last summer, but after that crap of an upgrade to the G5 I decided to wait...and wait...and wait some more. So here I am...still waiting....yup no updates on the apple site. Im gonna go off the deep end soon. Its been a year and not even a peep of a rumor conserning the G5, other than speculation of course. Why??? Damn Appleinside just make up a lie...something!! Just keep me sane for a few more months.
Wow, I am in the EXACT same situation, and using the EXACT same machine. The sluggishness is showing, and I need something, anything, to cling to the hope that a new line is coming very soon.
Has anyone considered that life is an upgrade cycle and that upgrading is just an inevitability? Okay - so you want new PMs - or revamped PMs less than every 12 months and you don't wanna pay full price for a computer that is "10 months old" with updates almost assuredly around the corner. Noble idea ... except for the fact that it's impossible.
Someone drew a car parallel earlier. Automakers DO release updates every year, very true. Sometimes they're minor and sometimes they're major, but they update all the same. I'm sure you're not chomping at the bit for the delivery at the dealership to get a new vehicle. The 2005 model you bought in June is a 6 month old car. Upgrades are 6 months away ... why not wait? Cars sure as heck don't go down in price either, so why should computers? Dealers may offer discounts, but the MSRP is still the same. Why should Apple drop prices 6, 8 or 10 months down the line when no new models have been released? It's the same machine that came out 6,8, or 10 months before? Dropping prices after a period of time would ensure Apple doesn't move any product in the first 6 months and be unfair for those that bought the computer right when it was released ... so then you have mad consumers.
If you wanted or NEEDED a new computer, then BUY one. So you miss out 2 months later on the speed bump ... and yeah, the speed bump. Buy what you NEED now and don't worry about it. Just because you WANT something, doesn't mean it'll get put into the production lines ... it's just wishful thinking.
Cars sure as heck don't go down in price either, so why should computers?
Sorry, but the car analogy is a terrible one. The very minute you drive the car off the lot, it's depreciated somewhere in the neighborhood of 20%. If you're just talking resale value, Macs, especially PowerMacs hold their value a MUCH higher percentage rate than cars.
Another reason that the car analogy stinks is that the consumer knows that all major auto manufacturers release new car editions each year. You can plan accordingly and if you're going to need a new car late Fall, you can wait just a month or so until next year's car model rolls out. However, if you never knew when the next car model was coming out, one might be more reluctant to pull the trigger on a new car purchase, knowing they'll get far more long term value out of their car if they wait for the next model.
You completely missed my point ... a car sitting on the lot for 6 months is still going to sell at the same MSRP that it sold for when it first rolled out. The same is true with computers. That's why Apple isn't dropping prices. It's the same thing people bought 10 months ago for $2500 ... nothing in the box changes and the computer sitting on a warehouse shelf is not 6 months old just because you chose to buy it 6 months after release. It's brand new ... never used, nothing wrong with it, so why shouldn't Apple still demand MSRP for it?
You're right in that the car market has the advantage of letting people know what and when when it comes to their product; however, if I have a car start dying on me in late Fall, I'm either going to have to drop the bucks to fix it or buy a new one late in the model year. If my car is still running and will get me from one place to another, I don't NEED a new one, I want a new one for the performance, looks, whatever. If the computer you bought 10 months ago will still do what you need it to do, then there's no reason you NEED a new one. IT STILL WORKS and does what you need it to do.
Comments
Originally posted by the cool gut
The Powermac line for Apple is a big problem, and if you think otherwise then your only fooling yourself.
...
In the last quarter they said that they doubt they will ever go over 200 000 again, and said that pros are upgrading to the iMac G5 instead and that they would focus on total system sales as opposed to specific models.
There's no problem there. Apple makes sales. Many customers get by with iMacs. The ones who want more power, will still buy Powermacs.
This is a problem about as much as personal computer was a "problem" to the companies who made both supercomputers and personal computers. They might have sold fewer supercomputers while the PC market exploded. Both company and customers still won.
Originally posted by Gon
Apple has a reason for not making big announcements in advance. Their customer base is not like Dell's. Unlike big businesses, a lot of Apple's customers don't have a rigid buy schedule and will wait if they know exactly when a next revision is coming. For inventory reasons it costs more for everybody, and delivery times grow, if sales tank before a release and spike afterwards. Of course this happens anyway, since people predict the releases and like to buy shiny new models, but probably the effect is smaller.
For technical and inventory reasons Apple can't make constant incremental upgrades like Dell does to keep the machines flowing, either. Personally I think Apple could just steadily (as in, monthly) drop the prices of all models that are out.
I think the main problem is that a lot of folk, like myself, are wanting to buy a new PowerMac but don't want to get stung with a new machine which gets upgraded or re-priced maybe less than a month after purchase!
When you buy a $700 PC it doesn't hurt quite as much but when you shell out $2500 it kills you!
Originally posted by telekon
I think the main problem is that a lot of folk, like myself, are wanting to buy a new PowerMac but don't want to get stung with a new machine which gets upgraded or re-priced maybe less than a month after purchase!
When you buy a $700 PC it doesn't hurt quite as much but when you shell out $2500 it kills you!
Might I point out you are not actually losing anything there? The computer you bought is still the same.
Anyway, that is why I said (and this you quoted) that I think the prices of existing models should constantly drop. Then the gap to the next model, whenever that comes out, would be small. Anything you buy would have a fresh price, so mostly it would not matter much if you hold out or not.
Example -
3.5GHz X-Mac goes for $2000, 4GHz X-Mac goes for $2500
models stay the same for seven months before an update, price drops every month
right before upgrades, 3.5GHz X-Mac has fallen to $1700, 4GHz X-Mac is $2100
upgrade: 4GHz X-Mac at $2000 as the new low end; new 4.5GHz X-Mac is $2500
and so on.
Originally posted by Gon
... Professionals should be the absolute last people worrying if their gear is "new". ... Their customer base is not like Dell's. Unlike big businesses, a lot of Apple's customers don't have a rigid buy schedule and will wait if they know exactly when a next revision is coming. ...
Two very good points. First, as a professional, I usually buy the last generation - I stay off the bleeding edge. Reliability is more important than performance.
Second, anyone who lived thru the Osborne Computer fiasco knows you should never preannounce your next model. The preannouncement of the Executive II killed their company. My company, and many others, were stuck with older models which we couldn't sell. Sales went to zero, and the company went out of business. It was brutal and horrible.
Originally posted by Gon
Might I point out you are not actually losing anything there? The computer you bought is still the same.
Anyway, that is why I said (and this you quoted) that I think the prices of existing models should constantly drop. Then the gap to the next model, whenever that comes out, would be small. Anything you buy would have a fresh price, so mostly it would not matter much if you hold out or not.
Example -
3.5GHz X-Mac goes for $2000, 4GHz X-Mac goes for $2500
models stay the same for seven months before an update, price drops every month
right before upgrades, 3.5GHz X-Mac has fallen to $1700, 4GHz X-Mac is $2100
upgrade: 4GHz X-Mac at $2000 as the new low end; new 4.5GHz X-Mac is $2500
and so on.
What?! Wait. The point I was trying to make is that in reality (and this HAS happened to me) if you buy a G5 1.8MP for £1349 in early March and in late April that same machine is reduced to £1149 or is 2.0MP spec. you do feel just a little pissed at Apple. It's NOT the same machine in your head - it's either as case of "it's now cheaper" or "I could have bought a slightly better model for the same money".
Don't get me wrong here, I fully understand that there will always be something better and faster "around the corner" but sometimes it does feel like you've done the wrong thing when the specs./prices change so close after to your purchase.
As a switcher I must say that Apple should focus on the iMac. It is a wonderful machine no matter what a lot of you "professional" mac users say!
I have never been more happy with a computer and I bet that any person who has struggled with the windows environment will feel the same. I paid the "Mac premium" with a smile on my face!
The PowerMac might be the Apple flagship, but it is the iMac that has the potential! So, please, dear Apple, do focus your attention on this wonderful product and you will soon have enough money to solve your PowerMac troubles. Go iMac!!!
Originally posted by Gon
Anyway, that is why I said (and this you quoted) that I think the prices of existing models should constantly drop. Then the gap to the next model, whenever that comes out, would be small. Anything you buy would have a fresh price, so mostly it would not matter much if you hold out or not.
While I think this is a GREAT idea, methinks Apple would never adopt it. That being the case, it is easy to understand the reluctance of someone paying full price for a 10 month old machine, the fervor in researching potential updates, and the importance of timing in Mac purchasing decisions.
Originally posted by telekon
What?! Wait. The point I was trying to make is that in reality (and this HAS happened to me) if you buy a G5 1.8MP for £1349 in early March and in late April that same machine is reduced to £1149
£1349 - £1149 = £200.
£200 / 50 days = £4
So you pay £4 a day for having the machine...
or is 2.0MP spec.
... or you miss out on 10% performance, which for most purposes is totally imperceptible.
There are bad cases of these gaps between revisions. This is definitely on the small side.
Originally posted by ibook911
I'm going to try to upgrade my notebook, with every Powerbook release. Macs hold a decent resale value, and you don't lose a lot, when you upgrade early-on.
I got almost the same thing going on, but I'm not release-centric, I'm warranty-centric. (even if it amounts to much the same buy/sell schedule...)
Buying AppleCare seems like a huge waste of money. It's very expensive on laptops, and I don't expect a desktop to break anyway.
I hear a broken laptop without Applecare is a real money sink.
People like to buy used computers still in warranty, so they are covered against problems that come up.
It follows I must sell every computer no later than at the 11 month mark, and get a new one.
I'm not currently running Powerbook, I switched to an iBook, which is even better for this scheme. It's cheaper so I don't lose as much by devaluation.
Originally posted by onlooker
Should have titled this thread
TIRED OF WHINING?
Are you naturally obnoxious, or is it something you've been working on yout entire life?
Originally posted by onlooker
Should have titled this thread
TIRED OF WHINING?
sheesh, let us vent.
Apple moves small volumes compared to other computer manufacturers. It means Apple has to spread the R&D costs out over a longer period, and so fewer updates. Apple could probably afford the R&D if that's all it took, but there's also the cost of retooling the manufacturing facilities, retraining the slave labor, and clearing the sales channels and then priming them with new product. Every time Apple releases an update, there's a good month long lag between the announcement and new product availability, meaning no profits for Apple during this time. Yeah Apple could probably do this better, but that's where they're at.
The low volume also means a tiny carrot for Apple's component suppliers. Not a big deal for stuff like RAM or HDs, where Apple simply gets a smaller volume discount than Dell, but a huge problem for Apple-specific parts. IBM simply doesn't feel motivated to get desktop PPC designs out quickly without a huge sales volume lighting a fire under their collective asses. It was the same with Moto, but with a good helping of incompetence thrown into the mix.
As long as Apple is dealing with relatively small volumes, it will be a miracle every time they deliver new Powermacs that are truly competitive with the Wintel world. We need to get used to it. For those of us who remember the Motorola years, it's easy. I just feel bad for recent switchers, or professionals who earn a living on their Macs.
Originally posted by xflare
Are you naturally obnoxious, or is it something you've been working on yout entire life?
Are you naturally stupid, or do you double the amount of threads on the same subject in forum you visit? The thread already exists, all you have to do is USE THE SEARCH. or LOOK. Its right in the top 6 threads
....oh and back to the question I asked you, your response above answers that quite nicely thankyou.
Originally posted by Gon
£1349 - £1149 = £200.
£200 / 50 days = £4
So you pay £4 a day for having the machine...... or you miss out on 10% performance, which for most purposes is totally imperceptible.
There are bad cases of these gaps between revisions. This is definitely on the small side.
Cash wise maybe, but mentally no. No-one likes to feel they could have bought better, especially when it's the same item.
And anyway, why do Apple make such "imperceptible" upgrades if they don't matter?
Originally posted by jsnuff1
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH I really cant take it anymore...im chugging along on a Dual 500 G4 and I was supposed to upgrade last summer, but after that crap of an upgrade to the G5 I decided to wait...and wait...and wait some more. So here I am...still waiting....yup no updates on the apple site. Im gonna go off the deep end soon. Its been a year and not even a peep of a rumor conserning the G5, other than speculation of course. Why??? Damn Appleinside just make up a lie...something!! Just keep me sane for a few more months.
Wow, I am in the EXACT same situation, and using the EXACT same machine. The sluggishness is showing, and I need something, anything, to cling to the hope that a new line is coming very soon.
Someone drew a car parallel earlier. Automakers DO release updates every year, very true. Sometimes they're minor and sometimes they're major, but they update all the same. I'm sure you're not chomping at the bit for the delivery at the dealership to get a new vehicle. The 2005 model you bought in June is a 6 month old car. Upgrades are 6 months away ... why not wait? Cars sure as heck don't go down in price either, so why should computers? Dealers may offer discounts, but the MSRP is still the same. Why should Apple drop prices 6, 8 or 10 months down the line when no new models have been released? It's the same machine that came out 6,8, or 10 months before? Dropping prices after a period of time would ensure Apple doesn't move any product in the first 6 months and be unfair for those that bought the computer right when it was released ... so then you have mad consumers.
If you wanted or NEEDED a new computer, then BUY one. So you miss out 2 months later on the speed bump ... and yeah, the speed bump. Buy what you NEED now and don't worry about it. Just because you WANT something, doesn't mean it'll get put into the production lines ... it's just wishful thinking.
Originally posted by AgNuke1707
Cars sure as heck don't go down in price either, so why should computers?
Sorry, but the car analogy is a terrible one. The very minute you drive the car off the lot, it's depreciated somewhere in the neighborhood of 20%. If you're just talking resale value, Macs, especially PowerMacs hold their value a MUCH higher percentage rate than cars.
Another reason that the car analogy stinks is that the consumer knows that all major auto manufacturers release new car editions each year. You can plan accordingly and if you're going to need a new car late Fall, you can wait just a month or so until next year's car model rolls out. However, if you never knew when the next car model was coming out, one might be more reluctant to pull the trigger on a new car purchase, knowing they'll get far more long term value out of their car if they wait for the next model.
That's what many of us are doing in this thread.
You're right in that the car market has the advantage of letting people know what and when when it comes to their product; however, if I have a car start dying on me in late Fall, I'm either going to have to drop the bucks to fix it or buy a new one late in the model year. If my car is still running and will get me from one place to another, I don't NEED a new one, I want a new one for the performance, looks, whatever. If the computer you bought 10 months ago will still do what you need it to do, then there's no reason you NEED a new one. IT STILL WORKS and does what you need it to do.