I don't think Apple will ship anything based on Intel hardware until the popular programs have been converted. I, for one, cannot imagine having a Mac without photoshop, illustrator, and BBedit installed on it. Not to mention Apple owned applications like logic pro. I know everyone wants the Intel macs to come out soon, but without the needed software, what's the point?
For a vast majority of users, I would figure the apps included with OS X, iLife & M$ Office (as much as it pains me to say it; come on Apple!, get off the stick vis a vis iWork!) should cover most of the bases...
Mac mini seems like the best way to break the ice on the Intel-based Mac market...
I don't think Apple will ship anything based on Intel hardware until the popular programs have been converted. I, for one, cannot imagine having a Mac without photoshop, illustrator, and BBedit installed on it. Not to mention Apple owned applications like logic pro. I know everyone wants the Intel macs to come out soon, but without the needed software, what's the point?
BBEdit is already Universal Binary, and I really think that Apple will leave Office and Creative Suite behind since pointed out that these apps run just fine emulated. I think it's pretty safe to assume that ALL of Apple's applications is running as UB apps since WWDC.
From what I've heard the x86 labs at Apple are quite empty since there's really no need to use them any more. I guess this will change when finalized hardware is introduced but for now the porting is pretty much done for Apple's part.
I don't think Apple will ship anything based on Intel hardware until the popular programs have been converted. I, for one, cannot imagine having a Mac without photoshop, illustrator, and BBedit installed on it. Not to mention Apple owned applications like logic pro. I know everyone wants the Intel macs to come out soon, but without the needed software, what's the point?
Universal Binaries of Adobe apps are more than a year away since they won't come until CS3 is released.
Which is rather curious, given that iTunes runs on PPC OS X and x86 Windows, and given that iTunes should be a high priority for Apple.
My impresion of iTunes is that it was a showcase for Rosetta apps. I can't imagine that they left it out just because they didn't have the time or comptetence to port it. That'd be just silly.
When releasing the dev-seed they surely must have chosen some (or one) app to represent the multitude of applications that won't be a Universal Binary, and why not an app that most use, and use a lot?
Probably iTunes 5 is OSX86 native now. True they would of kept 4 as PowerPC and Windblows x86 to demo Rosetta, but when building 5, it would be universal.
I'm thinking Apple is going to update portables and probably Mac Mini first, as these are basically screaming for an update, especially the portables.
Apple is going to have to impress with their intel designs, or people are going to go off and buy a $300AU wintel.
So I am looking on the AMD/Linux side of things. For example, in the laptop area the MSI MS-1029 (whitebox) looks attractive with an MT-40 (2.2GHz) Turion, 2GB DDR400 RAM, 60GB 7200RPM HD, Bluetooth, for under $1800 (to my door). On the desktop side of things I'm looking at the Tyan K8WE (S2895UA2NRF, Ultra320, Nvidia4 2200/2050 chipset, 16x SLI, etc.) motherboard with 2 Opteron 270 (2GHz, dual core/each). I haven't finished pricing this build-your-own, but I believe that for $4-5K, I can get a fairly good system with (potentially) good OC potential.
So I will wait a little bit longer, however my patience is starting to wear thin on the Power side of the Apple fence.
OMFG Tyan and dual-opteron full 16x SLI would be BAD ASS. but i have to say Linux and/or WinXP, unfortunately, you will really miss your mac. get a powerbook 15" or somethin for $2k and save that $2k+ for a Macintel... or $2k PC rig
i love my amd64-venice-1.8ghz OC'ed to 2.4ghz, 1gb ddr kingston pc3200, nvidia 6600gt OC'ed from 500-550mhz core, 1000-1200mhz mem (128mb DDR3), 80gb SATA 7200rpm .... suse 9.3 is hard at work getting tv shows for me and HalfLife2 on the winXP side.. that game ITSELF makes building my PC rig all worth the trouble and money and stuff.
BUT
i still have a mac to use. trust me mate, you will miss it. with that $4k, why don't you get a powerbook g4 and now maybe with the rest of the $2k get a nice desktop rig? the tyan-opterons are overkill unless you KNOW what you are going to be running on Linux. like blender, or doing tons of MPEG4 encoding, or something like that. otherwise, overkill....
edit: i don't think you'd have as much fun blowing $4k on a PC rig and then overclocking... i've found IMO the fun of OC'ing upgrading is start with something base then you've got headroom to tweak, fool around, upgrade, put fans, cool things down, etc etc... particularly coming from your Mac G3 world no offense if you have used PCs much, but if you haven't, this day and age, it's pretty wild and wooly out there. when i first started reading anandtech and tomshardware 1 year ago, i was like ,WTF is going on in PC Land? it was hella whack.... all fps this and that... (after switching to macs in 2000) .... but i was curious.... overall i'm glad i didn't put too much faith in it and didn't abandon my iBook g4 933mhz completely.
I find the timeframe odd as SJ says OS X has run on Intel from 10.0. The dev box is running on more or less standard PC hardware, and chances are all Apple apps are universal binaries at HQ.
So...
What will take until June 2006? Is Apple just waiting for 3rd party support to be good? Or for Yonah?
I'm curious.
I think the decision to jump to Intel was made suddenly. Even if it is smooth and easy the transition to produce the first Intel machines will take time. Not only do they have to design and build (and specify everything for manufacturing) a new machine they need new firmware and new manuals and packaging and they have to test everything a bunch of times and the third party software has to be ready. This is a huge task involving lots of people working together on schedule. For this to only take a year till the first hardware is available is very impressive.
I think the decision to jump to Intel was made suddenly. Even if it is smooth and easy the transition to produce the first Intel machines will take time. Not only do they have to design and build (and specify everything for manufacturing) a new machine they need new firmware and new manuals and packaging and they have to test everything a bunch of times and the third party software has to be ready. This is a huge task involving lots of people working together on schedule. For this to only take a year till the first hardware is available is very impressive.
I dont agree that the decision was made suddenly. There is no way that a company such as apple would make the decision to switch to x86 without careful consideration and market testing. It wouldn't of consisted of Steve Jobs sitting at his desk one evening, getting a phonecall from IBM saying they cant give him what he wants, him saying "well screw you too" and then the magazine in front of him flicking itself to a page with an add for the upcoming Yonah chip. I dont think so anyway.
That said, none of the hardware would of existed as more than an idea, or perhaps a rough sketch at the time. You are right in saying:
Quote:
Not only do they have to design and build (and specify everything for manufacturing) a new machine they need new firmware and new manuals and packaging and they have to test everything a bunch of times and the third party software has to be ready. This is a huge task involving lots of people working together on schedule. For this to only take a year till the first hardware is available is very impressive.
I don't agree that the decision was made suddenly..... It wouldn't [have] consisted of Steve Jobs sitting at his desk one evening, getting a phonecall from IBM saying they can't give him what he wants, him saying "well, screw you too a**holes!" and then the magazine in front of him flicking itself to a page with an ad for the upcoming Yonah chip, [and then Steve scribbling down] ...a rough sketch... [of the first Macintels.]
OMFG Tyan and dual-opteron full 16x SLI would be BAD ASS.
Yes, the Tyan (with the Nvidia 2200/2050 chipset) is serious BA (its big brother, the K8QW (4U + 4U expansion board (16 cores (eight 800 series Opterons)) is simply AWESOME (I think Boxx uses it in their new high end system, however it doesn't fit into a standard EATA box). My understanding is the Opteron has some serious advantages over the Athlon (communication between seperate CPU's (i. e. between 2 (or more) dualies)).
Actually, the vast majority of my experience (33+ years) is *NIX, then Winblows, then Mac. Most of the work I do involves numerical models, most of the code I develop/modify is in 64-bit Fortran, and 64-bit Fortran compilers are currently predominately available (and mature) for the 64-bit Linux OS's (seeing as how these have been used on 64-bit *NIX supercomputers, since like forever). I am very comfortable with CLI computing (if necessary). Multicore is definitely the forseeable future of desktop computing.
I've never built a system before, but with the WWW and others who have been there and done that before (e. g. Newegg), I have no doubts about this approach. I've done all the maintenance upgrades on *NIX workstations (who wants to pay for those exorbitant maintenance contracts) and Winblows/Mac desktops. So its like, motherboard-CPU(s)-memory-GPU(s)-media drive(s)-enclosure-power supply-OS(s)-screw driver. You get to pretty much build exactly the system you budget desires. What with the OC aspect of AMD's CPU's, this experience is very akin to building your own "high tech" hotrod, very much a hobbyist approach to computing.
On the Mac side of things, IMHO it has the best mainstream GUI experience going, I want to continue this experience. I see my Mac desktop options as the following;
1) Replace B&W (immediate and very low cost),
2) New Mac mini (as soon as the rumored upgrades are available, low cost),
3) Used 2nd generation Quicksilver with G4 CPU dualie upgrade (immediate and moderate cost), or
4) Fabled holy grail of Mac computing, the 970MP dualie (whenever, high cost).
On the lappy side of things, my current work requires a Winblows OS, seeing as all of my compadres use it exclusively, and I really need a work/home (i. e. portable) system (which would be a substantial upgrade from the 4-year old government loaners I'm using now). I'd set this up as a dual-boot system (64-bit Linux and 32-bit Windows XP) if this is possible to do (otherwise it'll have to be XP (or XP x64) only). The MSI MS-1029 currently seems to offer the most bang for the buck (whitebox, add 2.2GHz Turion MT-40, 7200RPM Hitachi HD, 2GB of SuperTalent DDR400 memory, MSI wireless (bluetooth, etc.) mini PCI card, 8X (?) DL DVD, 128 MB X700 ATI GPU, Firewire 400, USB 2.0, x64 drivers, etc.), all for under $1800 (delivered (from several vendors)). Again, this is very akin to a hobbyist/hotrodders approach to computing (and most cost effective (no wasted parts from upgrading a minimalist lappy from a mainstream/premium vendor (they never give you the right RAM/HD/GPU options (or these options are way to incrementally expensive (even from the BTO MS-1029 vendors))))). So I'll be placing the necessary orders for this lappy before the COB today.
PS - The B&W CPU was upgraded to a G4 (albeit only 500MHz) long ago (It ran remarkably well under Tiger too!).
engadget is thinking along this line, that apple wants merom and conroe(edit: oops i think i mean woodcrest) and is trying to "strongarm" intel into giving it to apple earlier than scheduled to hit the june 2006 deadline.
well, i don't know if i believe it completely, i think apple will definitely release a yonah/merom iBook Macintel and yonah/merom PowerBook Macintel by june 2006. they simply cannot afford *not* to.
iPod madness and "apples last consumer powerpc products" will hold the fort until middle of 2006 but not beyond that. i forsee june2006-june2007 to be clearing out the powermac g5 dual-core/low voltage/etc... and then by june2007, bob's your uncle. i mean, intel's your uncle then...
franksargent: well, looks like you've got it covered. yeah, the hobbyist approach is definitely fun, as long as one has a mac around for serious stuff in crunch time don't forget to play HalfLife2 when you get your AMD pc rig/ portable
Comments
Originally posted by Res
I don't think Apple will ship anything based on Intel hardware until the popular programs have been converted. I, for one, cannot imagine having a Mac without photoshop, illustrator, and BBedit installed on it. Not to mention Apple owned applications like logic pro. I know everyone wants the Intel macs to come out soon, but without the needed software, what's the point?
For a vast majority of users, I would figure the apps included with OS X, iLife & M$ Office (as much as it pains me to say it; come on Apple!, get off the stick vis a vis iWork!) should cover most of the bases...
Mac mini seems like the best way to break the ice on the Intel-based Mac market...
Originally posted by Res
I don't think Apple will ship anything based on Intel hardware until the popular programs have been converted. I, for one, cannot imagine having a Mac without photoshop, illustrator, and BBedit installed on it. Not to mention Apple owned applications like logic pro. I know everyone wants the Intel macs to come out soon, but without the needed software, what's the point?
BBEdit is already Universal Binary, and I really think that Apple will leave Office and Creative Suite behind since pointed out that these apps run just fine emulated. I think it's pretty safe to assume that ALL of Apple's applications is running as UB apps since WWDC.
From what I've heard the x86 labs at Apple are quite empty since there's really no need to use them any more. I guess this will change when finalized hardware is introduced but for now the porting is pretty much done for Apple's part.
Originally posted by Res
I don't think Apple will ship anything based on Intel hardware until the popular programs have been converted. I, for one, cannot imagine having a Mac without photoshop, illustrator, and BBedit installed on it. Not to mention Apple owned applications like logic pro. I know everyone wants the Intel macs to come out soon, but without the needed software, what's the point?
Universal Binaries of Adobe apps are more than a year away since they won't come until CS3 is released.
CS2 already works fine in Rosetta.
Originally posted by @homenow
I think that I read somewhere that Apple said that the iApps are all ready for universal bionaries, but not all of the professional level software.
At least right now, iTunes is not x86 native.
Originally posted by Smircle
At least right now, iTunes is not x86 native.
Which is rather curious, given that iTunes runs on PPC OS X and x86 Windows, and given that iTunes should be a high priority for Apple.
Originally posted by PB
Which is rather curious, given that iTunes runs on PPC OS X and x86 Windows, and given that iTunes should be a high priority for Apple.
My impresion of iTunes is that it was a showcase for Rosetta apps. I can't imagine that they left it out just because they didn't have the time or comptetence to port it. That'd be just silly.
When releasing the dev-seed they surely must have chosen some (or one) app to represent the multitude of applications that won't be a Universal Binary, and why not an app that most use, and use a lot?
I'm thinking Apple is going to update portables and probably Mac Mini first, as these are basically screaming for an update, especially the portables.
Apple is going to have to impress with their intel designs, or people are going to go off and buy a $300AU wintel.
Originally posted by franksargent
So I am looking on the AMD/Linux side of things. For example, in the laptop area the MSI MS-1029 (whitebox) looks attractive with an MT-40 (2.2GHz) Turion, 2GB DDR400 RAM, 60GB 7200RPM HD, Bluetooth, for under $1800 (to my door). On the desktop side of things I'm looking at the Tyan K8WE (S2895UA2NRF, Ultra320, Nvidia4 2200/2050 chipset, 16x SLI, etc.) motherboard with 2 Opteron 270 (2GHz, dual core/each). I haven't finished pricing this build-your-own, but I believe that for $4-5K, I can get a fairly good system with (potentially) good OC potential.
So I will wait a little bit longer, however my patience is starting to wear thin on the Power side of the Apple fence.
OMFG Tyan and dual-opteron full 16x SLI would be BAD ASS. but i have to say Linux and/or WinXP, unfortunately, you will really miss your mac. get a powerbook 15" or somethin for $2k and save that $2k+ for a Macintel... or $2k PC rig
i love my amd64-venice-1.8ghz OC'ed to 2.4ghz, 1gb ddr kingston pc3200, nvidia 6600gt OC'ed from 500-550mhz core, 1000-1200mhz mem (128mb DDR3), 80gb SATA 7200rpm .... suse 9.3 is hard at work getting tv shows for me and HalfLife2 on the winXP side.. that game ITSELF makes building my PC rig all worth the trouble and money and stuff.
BUT
i still have a mac to use. trust me mate, you will miss it. with that $4k, why don't you get a powerbook g4 and now maybe with the rest of the $2k get a nice desktop rig? the tyan-opterons are overkill unless you KNOW what you are going to be running on Linux. like blender, or doing tons of MPEG4 encoding, or something like that. otherwise, overkill....
edit: i don't think you'd have as much fun blowing $4k on a PC rig and then overclocking... i've found IMO the fun of OC'ing upgrading is start with something base then you've got headroom to tweak, fool around, upgrade, put fans, cool things down, etc etc... particularly coming from your Mac G3 world no offense if you have used PCs much, but if you haven't, this day and age, it's pretty wild and wooly out there. when i first started reading anandtech and tomshardware 1 year ago, i was like ,WTF is going on in PC Land? it was hella whack.... all fps this and that... (after switching to macs in 2000) .... but i was curious.... overall i'm glad i didn't put too much faith in it and didn't abandon my iBook g4 933mhz completely.
Originally posted by Blackcat
I find the timeframe odd as SJ says OS X has run on Intel from 10.0. The dev box is running on more or less standard PC hardware, and chances are all Apple apps are universal binaries at HQ.
So...
What will take until June 2006? Is Apple just waiting for 3rd party support to be good? Or for Yonah?
I'm curious.
I think the decision to jump to Intel was made suddenly. Even if it is smooth and easy the transition to produce the first Intel machines will take time. Not only do they have to design and build (and specify everything for manufacturing) a new machine they need new firmware and new manuals and packaging and they have to test everything a bunch of times and the third party software has to be ready. This is a huge task involving lots of people working together on schedule. For this to only take a year till the first hardware is available is very impressive.
Originally posted by neutrino23
I think the decision to jump to Intel was made suddenly. Even if it is smooth and easy the transition to produce the first Intel machines will take time. Not only do they have to design and build (and specify everything for manufacturing) a new machine they need new firmware and new manuals and packaging and they have to test everything a bunch of times and the third party software has to be ready. This is a huge task involving lots of people working together on schedule. For this to only take a year till the first hardware is available is very impressive.
I dont agree that the decision was made suddenly. There is no way that a company such as apple would make the decision to switch to x86 without careful consideration and market testing. It wouldn't of consisted of Steve Jobs sitting at his desk one evening, getting a phonecall from IBM saying they cant give him what he wants, him saying "well screw you too" and then the magazine in front of him flicking itself to a page with an add for the upcoming Yonah chip. I dont think so anyway.
That said, none of the hardware would of existed as more than an idea, or perhaps a rough sketch at the time. You are right in saying:
Not only do they have to design and build (and specify everything for manufacturing) a new machine they need new firmware and new manuals and packaging and they have to test everything a bunch of times and the third party software has to be ready. This is a huge task involving lots of people working together on schedule. For this to only take a year till the first hardware is available is very impressive.
I don't agree that the decision was made suddenly..... It wouldn't [have] consisted of Steve Jobs sitting at his desk one evening, getting a phonecall from IBM saying they can't give him what he wants, him saying "well, screw you too a**holes!" and then the magazine in front of him flicking itself to a page with an ad for the upcoming Yonah chip, [and then Steve scribbling down] ...a rough sketch... [of the first Macintels.]
ROFLMAO
Originally posted by Blackcat
[snip]
What will take until June 2006? Is Apple just waiting for 3rd party support to be good? Or for Yonah?
I'm curious.
they'll wait for merom, i guess
Originally posted by sunilraman
OMFG Tyan and dual-opteron full 16x SLI would be BAD ASS.
Yes, the Tyan (with the Nvidia 2200/2050 chipset) is serious BA (its big brother, the K8QW (4U + 4U expansion board (16 cores (eight 800 series Opterons)) is simply AWESOME (I think Boxx uses it in their new high end system, however it doesn't fit into a standard EATA box). My understanding is the Opteron has some serious advantages over the Athlon (communication between seperate CPU's (i. e. between 2 (or more) dualies)).
Actually, the vast majority of my experience (33+ years) is *NIX, then Winblows, then Mac. Most of the work I do involves numerical models, most of the code I develop/modify is in 64-bit Fortran, and 64-bit Fortran compilers are currently predominately available (and mature) for the 64-bit Linux OS's (seeing as how these have been used on 64-bit *NIX supercomputers, since like forever). I am very comfortable with CLI computing (if necessary). Multicore is definitely the forseeable future of desktop computing.
I've never built a system before, but with the WWW and others who have been there and done that before (e. g. Newegg), I have no doubts about this approach. I've done all the maintenance upgrades on *NIX workstations (who wants to pay for those exorbitant maintenance contracts) and Winblows/Mac desktops. So its like, motherboard-CPU(s)-memory-GPU(s)-media drive(s)-enclosure-power supply-OS(s)-screw driver. You get to pretty much build exactly the system you budget desires. What with the OC aspect of AMD's CPU's, this experience is very akin to building your own "high tech" hotrod, very much a hobbyist approach to computing.
On the Mac side of things, IMHO it has the best mainstream GUI experience going, I want to continue this experience. I see my Mac desktop options as the following;
1) Replace B&W (immediate and very low cost),
2) New Mac mini (as soon as the rumored upgrades are available, low cost),
3) Used 2nd generation Quicksilver with G4 CPU dualie upgrade (immediate and moderate cost), or
4) Fabled holy grail of Mac computing, the 970MP dualie (whenever, high cost).
On the lappy side of things, my current work requires a Winblows OS, seeing as all of my compadres use it exclusively, and I really need a work/home (i. e. portable) system (which would be a substantial upgrade from the 4-year old government loaners I'm using now). I'd set this up as a dual-boot system (64-bit Linux and 32-bit Windows XP) if this is possible to do (otherwise it'll have to be XP (or XP x64) only). The MSI MS-1029 currently seems to offer the most bang for the buck (whitebox, add 2.2GHz Turion MT-40, 7200RPM Hitachi HD, 2GB of SuperTalent DDR400 memory, MSI wireless (bluetooth, etc.) mini PCI card, 8X (?) DL DVD, 128 MB X700 ATI GPU, Firewire 400, USB 2.0, x64 drivers, etc.), all for under $1800 (delivered (from several vendors)). Again, this is very akin to a hobbyist/hotrodders approach to computing (and most cost effective (no wasted parts from upgrading a minimalist lappy from a mainstream/premium vendor (they never give you the right RAM/HD/GPU options (or these options are way to incrementally expensive (even from the BTO MS-1029 vendors))))). So I'll be placing the necessary orders for this lappy before the COB today.
PS - The B&W CPU was upgraded to a G4 (albeit only 500MHz) long ago (It ran remarkably well under Tiger too!).
Originally posted by gar
they'll wait for merom, i guess
http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000887060457/
engadget is thinking along this line, that apple wants merom and conroe(edit: oops i think i mean woodcrest) and is trying to "strongarm" intel into giving it to apple earlier than scheduled to hit the june 2006 deadline.
well, i don't know if i believe it completely, i think apple will definitely release a yonah/merom iBook Macintel and yonah/merom PowerBook Macintel by june 2006. they simply cannot afford *not* to.
iPod madness and "apples last consumer powerpc products" will hold the fort until middle of 2006 but not beyond that. i forsee june2006-june2007 to be clearing out the powermac g5 dual-core/low voltage/etc... and then by june2007, bob's your uncle. i mean, intel's your uncle then...