This whole discussion seems predicated on the incorrect notion that FW800 is somehow unusable with 400 - a three quid adaptor will let you hook up whatever you like, something Apple would hopefully bung in the box. Remember all the original FW iMacs shipped with a 6 to 4 cable to get the ball rolling. Belkin will sell me a 5 metre 9 to 6 cable for around a tenner, hardly the death knell for Apple among creatives. "Oh no, i have to use a DIFFERENT WIRE!!!, pass me that ugly-ass Dell lumptop instanter!!"
That's not my point. I Run and own a post house the last thing I want do is screw around with cable converters. FW is the medium I want to use actually. The majority of DV cameras around are FW400 and that's what I meant.Ubiquity is the key.
Apple has to focus on the consumer from a business perspective but in all the ipod hoopla the pro creative is being left behind...
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Firewire is built in ("free") in Apple's chipsets, but not in Intel's, so it now has an extra cost. But if you agree with the "caps" thread, extra cost doesn't matter.
Are you doing post on laptops? If not, you have nothing to worry about for now.
We use laptops a bit.. basically quick edits when we are out of town and such but most of our work is on our G5's which are awesome. I wonder if apple does drop firewire we will still be able to get pci cards.
sony is behind firewire in a big way too with intel, I can't remember where the article I read recently is. But if sony wants intel to work on firewire why would apple drop it when so many users rely on it?
I just can't imagine Apple would drop firewire. It is such a great technology, and so easy to use; only one size plug (no cables with different size plugs at both ends, like usb2) and it just works.
The question to me is not whether they will drop it but WHY. Adding firewire to a machine cant cost much at all. There must be another factor involved here...
I just can't imagine Apple would drop firewire. It is such a great technology, and so easy to use; only one size plug (no cables with different size plugs at both ends, like usb2) and it just works.
The question to me is not whether they will drop it but WHY. Adding firewire to a machine cant cost much at all. There must be another factor involved here...
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
i'm thinking it may purely be a mindshare thing. windows-users just don't "get" firewire. it's never standard on any of their boxes, so they are wary of ever using it, for fear of using it wrong, or having to learn something new.
ironically, usb 2.0 has gained a ton of ground, based on the widespread acceptance of usb 1.0 and 1.1, which was shoved out of its nest and into acceptance by ... drumroll ... the popularity and media hype of the bondi blue original imac. methinks if they had put firewire in those units too and hyped it, we'd have wider acceptance of the standard today.
either way, i'm not worried. it sounds like this is simply a change to firewire800, which is backwards compatible to 400 so long as you have a converter plug, right? if so, the standard moves on. i wish we could have it BACK in the ipod, which seems to be the device that, if you want something to become insanely popular, tie it to the ipod somehow. but, again, i think mindshare is at work there too...
1) Apple will transition to Intel chipsets. (News to me. Possible, sure, but it was never announced, therefore it's purely an assumption.)
Yes, this is an assumption. I have a feeling that Apple is getting the whole enchilada-trino from Intel, not just processors.
Quote:
2) Apple will for some reason decide not to use a chipset that supports FireWire. (Unplausible.)
Intel, VIA, ATI, and nVidia chipsets don't support Firewire. I don't think Apple will design their own. Firewire will have to be a separate chip at extra cost.
That's not my point. I Run and own a post house the last thing I want do is screw around with cable converters. FW is the medium I want to use actually. The majority of DV cameras around are FW400 and that's what I meant.Ubiquity is the key.
But how many of those DV cameras use the same 6-pin port that you have in the back of your Mac? I'm willing to guess about zero. Pretty much all cameras use the 4-pin connector. To connect that camera to your current Mac, you are already having to "screw around with cable converters." The only difference if FW 400 were replaced with FW 800 would be that you would get a 9-pin to 4-pin cable instead of a 6-pin to 4-pin one. Overall, not a big deal.
What would be something to complain about would be if they completely removed FireWire altogether from the motherboard. Hopefully, this won't happen and O'Grady is full of it. I can't imagine Apple doing this, with FireWire as prevalent as it is in video, but then again, they've done stranger things...
windows-users just don't "get" firewire. it's never standard on any of their boxes, so they are wary of ever using it, for fear of using it wrong, or having to learn something new.
Please don't write about something you have no idea about. Any decent Windows desktop and laptop has firewire.
Only very low end units do not.
Firewire gets used in Windows world just like it does in MAC world - for DV and hard-drives.
G-SATA is a possible competitor to FW800 for hard drives, but IEEE 1394 FireWire is more: it is THE plug for Digital Video. USB2 is not for true DV format, it is used only with little camcorders which encode directly in MPEG-2 on a DVD-R or MPEG-4 on a HDD, a nightmare to edit.
Moreover, a new consortium has been formed to unify and promote HD video networking:
HANA (High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance, web site hanaalliance.org).
Industry Leaders Announce High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance:
On December 14, 2005 at NBC Studio 8H, industry leaders Charter Communications, Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc., NBC Universal, Samsung and Sun Microsystems announced the formation of the High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance (HANA). HANA members are working to create a standards-based design guideline for secure High-Definition AV networks that will help enhance the consumer HD entertainment experience. Read the HANA Press Release.
And more precisely:
HANA is in discussions with standards bodies such as the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA), CableLabs, the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) and the 1394 Trade Association. HANA's goal is to utilize these groups' technologies to enable HD content sharing around the home. For example, by utilizing IEEE 1394 to connect devices, HANA will eliminate the confusing tangle of cables used to connect TVs with home theaters, DVD players and other consumer electronics products.
So HANA will promote FireWire connection as the interface of choice for Digital Video networking devices. Strange that Apple nor Texas Instruments don't belong to the alliance though.
First HANA-certified products will come to market 2006-H1.
HANA will be present at CES 2006 (January 5-8, Rooms N223-N225) in Las Vegas.
I hope something happens, I've been waiting to use FireWire to connect my devices for ages now. We'll see where the DRM devils lead us though.
Marketing FW400 is tough to do with all of the misinformation put out by the USB consortium. Simply going to FW800 gives Apple some ammunition to fire back with. While it may be true that FW400 is the popular interface for current DV, being able to give greater bandwidth to allow for HD-DV transfers could also be an important move forward. Unlike the MS-based crowd, Apple tends to look forward to what will be needed next year, not provide last year's solutions. Since there is no compatiblity problems between FW800 and FW400 other than the cable, I can't see a problem. After all, many people plug in cables where the two ends are different - just look at USB!
As far as cost, the largest part of putting Firewire into a computer is the licensing for the use of the term Firewire. That is probably one of the reasons for the confusion in the marketplace, since the consumer electronics company get around the licensing by simply calling it something else. Since Apple is the company that gets the money for licensing the term Firewire, I can't imagine that they would leave it out of their computers entirelyl.
FireWire is one of the fastest peripheral standards ever developed, which makes it great for use with multimedia peripherals such as digital video cameras and other high-speed devices like the latest hard disk drives and printers.
FireWire is integrated into Power Macs, iMacs, eMacs, PowerBooks, iBooks, and the iPod. FireWire ports were also integrated into many other computer products dating back to the Power Macintosh G3 "Blue & White" computers. All these machines include FireWire ports that operate at up to 400 megabits per second and the latest machines include FireWire ports that support 1394b and operate at up to 800 megabits per second.
FireWire is a cross-platform implementation of the high-speed serial data bus -- defined by the IEEE 1394-1995, IEEE 1394a-2000, and IEEE 1394b standards -- that can move large amounts of data between computers and peripheral devices. It features simplified cabling, hot swapping, and transfer speeds of up to 800 megabits per second (on machines that support 1394b).
Major manufacturers of multimedia devices have been adopting the FireWire technology, and for good reason. FireWire speeds up the movement of multimedia data and large files and enables easy connection of digital consumer products -- including digital camcorders, digital video tapes, digital video disks, set-top boxes, and music systems -- directly to a personal computer.
In fact, Apple's FireWire technology was honored by the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences, receiving a 2001 Primetime Emmy Engineering Award for FireWire's impact on the television industry.
For general developer FireWire questions send email to [email protected]. This email address is not for technical or customer support.
Comments
Originally posted by Jellytussle
This whole discussion seems predicated on the incorrect notion that FW800 is somehow unusable with 400 - a three quid adaptor will let you hook up whatever you like, something Apple would hopefully bung in the box. Remember all the original FW iMacs shipped with a 6 to 4 cable to get the ball rolling. Belkin will sell me a 5 metre 9 to 6 cable for around a tenner, hardly the death knell for Apple among creatives. "Oh no, i have to use a DIFFERENT WIRE!!!, pass me that ugly-ass Dell lumptop instanter!!"
That's not my point. I Run and own a post house the last thing I want do is screw around with cable converters. FW is the medium I want to use actually. The majority of DV cameras around are FW400 and that's what I meant.Ubiquity is the key.
Apple has to focus on the consumer from a business perspective but in all the ipod hoopla the pro creative is being left behind...
Having said that, I'd rather have a mix of at least two of each type on a Mac rather than having to buy new cables.
Originally posted by Celco
I Run and own a post house the last thing I want do is screw around with cable converters.
Are you doing post on laptops? If not, you have nothing to worry about for now.
As for HANA, meet HAVi...
Originally posted by wmf
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Firewire is built in ("free") in Apple's chipsets, but not in Intel's, so it now has an extra cost.
Interesing. So you assume that
1) Apple will transition to Intel chipsets. (News to me. Possible, sure, but it was never announced, therefore it's purely an assumption.)
2) Apple will for some reason decide not to use a chipset that supports FireWire. (Unplausible.)
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Are you doing post on laptops? If not, you have nothing to worry about for now.
We use laptops a bit.. basically quick edits when we are out of town and such but most of our work is on our G5's which are awesome. I wonder if apple does drop firewire we will still be able to get pci cards.
The question to me is not whether they will drop it but WHY. Adding firewire to a machine cant cost much at all. There must be another factor involved here...
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
Originally posted by Mandricard
I just can't imagine Apple would drop firewire. It is such a great technology, and so easy to use; only one size plug (no cables with different size plugs at both ends, like usb2) and it just works.
The question to me is not whether they will drop it but WHY. Adding firewire to a machine cant cost much at all. There must be another factor involved here...
Hope Springs Eternal,
Mandricard
AppleOutsider
i'm thinking it may purely be a mindshare thing. windows-users just don't "get" firewire. it's never standard on any of their boxes, so they are wary of ever using it, for fear of using it wrong, or having to learn something new.
ironically, usb 2.0 has gained a ton of ground, based on the widespread acceptance of usb 1.0 and 1.1, which was shoved out of its nest and into acceptance by ... drumroll ... the popularity and media hype of the bondi blue original imac. methinks if they had put firewire in those units too and hyped it, we'd have wider acceptance of the standard today.
either way, i'm not worried. it sounds like this is simply a change to firewire800, which is backwards compatible to 400 so long as you have a converter plug, right? if so, the standard moves on. i wish we could have it BACK in the ipod, which seems to be the device that, if you want something to become insanely popular, tie it to the ipod somehow. but, again, i think mindshare is at work there too...
Originally posted by Chucker
Interesing. So you assume that
1) Apple will transition to Intel chipsets. (News to me. Possible, sure, but it was never announced, therefore it's purely an assumption.)
Yes, this is an assumption. I have a feeling that Apple is getting the whole enchilada-trino from Intel, not just processors.
2) Apple will for some reason decide not to use a chipset that supports FireWire. (Unplausible.)
Intel, VIA, ATI, and nVidia chipsets don't support Firewire. I don't think Apple will design their own. Firewire will have to be a separate chip at extra cost.
http://indigo.intel.com/compare_cpu/...&culture=en-US
http://www.via.com.tw/en/products/ch..._p4-series.jsp
http://www.ati.com/products/radeonxp...tel/specs.html
http://www.nvidia.com/page/nforce4_family.html
Originally posted by Celco
That's not my point. I Run and own a post house the last thing I want do is screw around with cable converters. FW is the medium I want to use actually. The majority of DV cameras around are FW400 and that's what I meant.Ubiquity is the key.
But how many of those DV cameras use the same 6-pin port that you have in the back of your Mac? I'm willing to guess about zero. Pretty much all cameras use the 4-pin connector. To connect that camera to your current Mac, you are already having to "screw around with cable converters." The only difference if FW 400 were replaced with FW 800 would be that you would get a 9-pin to 4-pin cable instead of a 6-pin to 4-pin one. Overall, not a big deal.
What would be something to complain about would be if they completely removed FireWire altogether from the motherboard. Hopefully, this won't happen and O'Grady is full of it. I can't imagine Apple doing this, with FireWire as prevalent as it is in video, but then again, they've done stranger things...
windows-users just don't "get" firewire. it's never standard on any of their boxes, so they are wary of ever using it, for fear of using it wrong, or having to learn something new.
Please don't write about something you have no idea about. Any decent Windows desktop and laptop has firewire.
Only very low end units do not.
Firewire gets used in Windows world just like it does in MAC world - for DV and hard-drives.
For other things, USB2 is more prevalent.
Originally posted by Cosmos 1999
G-SATA is a possible competitor to FW800 for hard drives, but IEEE 1394 FireWire is more: it is THE plug for Digital Video. USB2 is not for true DV format, it is used only with little camcorders which encode directly in MPEG-2 on a DVD-R or MPEG-4 on a HDD, a nightmare to edit.
Moreover, a new consortium has been formed to unify and promote HD video networking:
HANA (High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance, web site hanaalliance.org).
Industry Leaders Announce High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance:
On December 14, 2005 at NBC Studio 8H, industry leaders Charter Communications, Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc., NBC Universal, Samsung and Sun Microsystems announced the formation of the High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance (HANA). HANA members are working to create a standards-based design guideline for secure High-Definition AV networks that will help enhance the consumer HD entertainment experience. Read the HANA Press Release.
And more precisely:
HANA is in discussions with standards bodies such as the Consumer Electronics Association (CEA), CableLabs, the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) and the 1394 Trade Association. HANA's goal is to utilize these groups' technologies to enable HD content sharing around the home. For example, by utilizing IEEE 1394 to connect devices, HANA will eliminate the confusing tangle of cables used to connect TVs with home theaters, DVD players and other consumer electronics products.
So HANA will promote FireWire connection as the interface of choice for Digital Video networking devices. Strange that Apple nor Texas Instruments don't belong to the alliance though.
First HANA-certified products will come to market 2006-H1.
HANA will be present at CES 2006 (January 5-8, Rooms N223-N225) in Las Vegas.
I hope something happens, I've been waiting to use FireWire to connect my devices for ages now. We'll see where the DRM devils lead us though.
As far as cost, the largest part of putting Firewire into a computer is the licensing for the use of the term Firewire. That is probably one of the reasons for the confusion in the marketplace, since the consumer electronics company get around the licensing by simply calling it something else. Since Apple is the company that gets the money for licensing the term Firewire, I can't imagine that they would leave it out of their computers entirelyl.
FireWire is one of the fastest peripheral standards ever developed, which makes it great for use with multimedia peripherals such as digital video cameras and other high-speed devices like the latest hard disk drives and printers.
FireWire is integrated into Power Macs, iMacs, eMacs, PowerBooks, iBooks, and the iPod. FireWire ports were also integrated into many other computer products dating back to the Power Macintosh G3 "Blue & White" computers. All these machines include FireWire ports that operate at up to 400 megabits per second and the latest machines include FireWire ports that support 1394b and operate at up to 800 megabits per second.
FireWire is a cross-platform implementation of the high-speed serial data bus -- defined by the IEEE 1394-1995, IEEE 1394a-2000, and IEEE 1394b standards -- that can move large amounts of data between computers and peripheral devices. It features simplified cabling, hot swapping, and transfer speeds of up to 800 megabits per second (on machines that support 1394b).
Major manufacturers of multimedia devices have been adopting the FireWire technology, and for good reason. FireWire speeds up the movement of multimedia data and large files and enables easy connection of digital consumer products -- including digital camcorders, digital video tapes, digital video disks, set-top boxes, and music systems -- directly to a personal computer.
In fact, Apple's FireWire technology was honored by the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences, receiving a 2001 Primetime Emmy Engineering Award for FireWire's impact on the television industry.
For general developer FireWire questions send email to [email protected]. This email address is not for technical or customer support.
Originally posted by CharlesS
Hopefully, this won't happen and O'Grady is full of it.
A safe assumption.
Originally posted by emig647
If they have a fw800->fw400 converter... then go for it. Without the converter.... it would be suicide for apple.
Apple supplied a DVI->VGA converter with Mac minis. I could see them supplying one for FW400->FW800, at least for a while.
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Apple supplied a DVI->VGA converter with Mac minis. I could see them supplying one for FW400->FW800, at least for a while.
That would be cool... I wasn't even sure if they made such a device.