I think everyone should have the knowledge to commit suicide if they find themselves in a position where they are helpless and unhappy.
This is just so ignorant of the reality of suicide. It's great to disconnect yourself from the reality of it and get pseudo-philosophical about it from afar, but the reality is that in most cases it, like murder, is fucking stupid and not a reasonable, calculated "solution." There is an argument to be made for suicide in cases of terminal disease, but for people who are just unhappy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
But people have no obligation to their families or friends.
Bullshit. At the extreme least, if you have kids, you have an obligation not to kill yourself just because you're depressed or going through a divorce or can't handle school, etc. In fact, you even owe it to yourself not to do it. And you know what? If you think you don't owe it to the people around you not to totally fuck them over and potentially screw up every part of their lives over some little solvable issue, then that's a whole problem in itself.
How many people that you know who have committed suicide wouldn't have profousely thanked someone for stopping them? All of the people I know who committed suicide would have. People who kill themselves over bullshit and temporary emotional pain are by definition not thinking straight.
This is just so ignorant of the reality of suicide. It's great to disconnect yourself from the reality of it and get pseudo-philosophical about it from afar, but the reality is that in most cases it, like murder, is fucking stupid and not a reasonable, calculated "solution." There is an argument to be made for suicide in cases of terminal disease, but for people who are just unhappy?
Bullshit. At the extreme least, if you have kids, you have an obligation not to kill yourself just because you're depressed or going through a divorce or can't handle school, etc. In fact, you even owe it to yourself not to do it. And you know what? If you think you don't owe it to the people around you not to totally fuck them over and potentially screw up every part of their lives over some little solvable issue, then that's a whole problem in itself.
This just goes to show how completely naive you are. I don't know how old you are but you must be under 25.
I'm not talking about 21 year olds committing suicide. By 26, you basically know what your life is and will be like.
You say you will hurt your family, as if everyone is involved in a family. Sorry, but what if you are 45, your kids hate you, you know you will never speak to them again, and two of them are on crack, and every man you have dated has hit you? You are acting as if there is always a Walton's family reunion at the end.
What if you are 45 and your husband has left you, and you have aged badly and you are just plain ugly and know you will never have another date in your life? Sorry, but look at some people, women especially, who weren't good looking to start and also aged awfully. Are they forced to live their lives out lonely and miserable to pretend that life has a fairy tale ending?
Some people just don't have the goods to lead a happy life. The worst 2% are just ugly. 20% of people are just dysfunctional and might never have had one single, happy satisfying relationship in their life. Some people, even good people, are hooked on drugs and have tried 20 times before but are unable to get off. Some people just get tired of being poor and having a crappy family with no love. And of course some people have constant physical pain. There's lots of valid reasons for suicide.
Quite the opposite. I think the only life worth living is a reasonably happy one, or at least one that is not miserable. Some people's lives are bad, and that really does bother me, though I know it doesn't bother everyone.
Sorry, just because I have given deep thought to what a person's life is like when they are born mangled by some horrible disease, don't call me cold. Just because I haven't written off all the pain in this world with some vague "God has a plan for everyone." story, don't call me cold. If a person has a need to see people happy and they meet many people in life who are just unhappy, one thinks about these kinds of things, even if the results are depressing.
But in the case of suicide, it's not really that depressing. I think being dead is much more preferable than being chronically unhappy. And realistically, there are a few percentage of people who are chronically unhappy.
Attempting suicide is not "being a pussy". It's "being too clouded to understand what to do in life".
I agree.
But read above to see that I don't believe he tried to commit suicide. My comment has nothing to do about suicide. I think he just took more than he could handle.
This is just so ignorant of the reality of suicide. It's great to disconnect yourself from the reality of it and get pseudo-philosophical about it from afar, but the reality is that in most cases it, like murder, is fucking stupid and not a reasonable, calculated "solution." There is an argument to be made for suicide in cases of terminal disease, but for people who are just unhappy?
So you're saying people should just endure life no matter what? For what purpose? They are inevitably going to die sometime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by giant
How many people that you know who have committed suicide wouldn't have profousely thanked someone for stopping them? All of the people I know who committed suicide would have. People who kill themselves over bullshit and temporary emotional pain are by definition not thinking straight.
Two people I know tried to commit suicide and one (divorced with 2 kids) was definitely not grateful when they were prevented from doing so, the other one was successful and had a wife and two kids. The unsuccessful one died within months from injuries sustained by the suicide attempt. They were not messed up people but reasonable people who made reasonable decisions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindler
Quite the opposite. I think the only life worth living is a reasonably happy one, or at least one that is not miserable. Some people's lives are bad, and that really does bother me, though I know it doesn't bother everyone.
Sorry, just because I have given deep thought to what a person's life is like when they are born mangled by some horrible disease, don't call me cold. Just because I haven't written off all the pain in this world with some vague "God has a plan for everyone." story, don't call me cold. If a person has a need to see people happy and they meet many people in life who are just unhappy, one thinks about these kinds of things, even if the results are depressing.
But in the case of suicide, it's not really that depressing. I think being dead is much more preferable than being chronically unhappy. And realistically, there are a few percentage of people who are chronically unhappy.
You'll find that the people most dead set against the idea of suicide tend to be the ones who really have no compassion for the human race.
They were not messed up people but reasonable people who made reasonable decisions.
I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a person who's not messed up yet commits (or attempts to commit) suicide. The very thought of committing suicide (by the way, I am suicidal, so I'm not exactly naïve to this topic) is a definite indication that something is "messed up" with the person. It is a clear indication of a mental disorder. Whether you will be able to detect it, let alone fix it, is another question, but your idea that they were "not messed up people" is just way off. It doesn't matter what kind of person you are; when you have a desire to commit suicide, something is wrong with you and you need help.
I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a person who's not messed up yet commits (or attempts to commit) suicide. The very thought of committing suicide (by the way, I am suicidal, so I'm not exactly naïve to this topic) is a definite indication that something is "messed up" with the person. It is a clear indication of a mental disorder.
So you're saying that you have a mental disorder? Do you think you need help? If so, how are you going to go about finding it and what do you think that will achieve?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucker
Whether you will be able to detect it, let alone fix it, is another question, but your idea that they were "not messed up people" is just way off. It doesn't matter what kind of person you are; when you have a desire to commit suicide, something is wrong with you and you need help.
I'm not saying it's true in all cases, I am saying that it is true in some cases so people shouldn't immediately judge anyone who tries to commit suicide as being messed up, though I realise that has a very loose definition and indeed if you view suicide as wrong then trying to commit it by definition would be messed up. Because I don't personally view suicide as wrong, I don't consider it an irrational or messed up thing to do. In many cases, I would consider not committing suicide to be the irrational thing to do.
This just goes to show how completely naive you are. I don't know how old you are but you must be under 25.
Don't talk down to me. Particularly when you make comments like:
Quote:
I'm not talking about 21 year olds committing suicide. By 26, you basically know what your life is and will be like.
Really? Because at 26 my wife and I were still a couple years from getting married, we were still mulling over grad degrees and certainly weren't anywhere near having kids yet.
Quote:
What if you are 45 and your husband has left you, and you have aged badly and you are just plain ugly...
You base your understanding of the world on two dimensional hypotheticals? What a joke. And "just plain ugly"? What are you, 12?
You are making a common amateur philosophical mistake. Your philosophy relies on an unrealistic and idealized model of human decision-making that neglects the actual real-world causes of suicide and supports it with shallow, imaginary hypothetical situations. The long and short of it is that your 10 cent philosophy based on imaginary 2D hypotheticals is all fun and games until the real world shows up at the door and someone ends up dead.
I've had to personally deal with 4 suicides in the past 10 years. The most recent was a week ago friday. He left behind two young sons, a loving family and jeopordized a whole company, including 80 jobs and millions of investors' dollars. Remember, insurance and contracts, even business ones, many times are voided by suicide. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and it's just one example. I don't need to make up hypotheticals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
So you're saying people should just endure life no matter what? For what purpose? They are inevitably going to die sometime.
No, I'm saying that your unrealistic philosophy is dangrous.
Quote:
They were not messed up people but reasonable people who made reasonable decisions.
Right. Instead of helping people you care about overcome their problems, you tell them, "yeah, your life sucks. just go kill yourself."
Thank god I don't have friends or family members like you.
Quote:
I am saying that it is true in some cases so people shouldn't immediately judge anyone who tries to commit suicide as being messed up,
I don't disagree that there are times when suicide might be a reasonable option (such as for someone with a painful, terminal illness), but the are the exception and rare. Advocating suicide for people who are just unhappy with a situation they are in is plain fucking stupid. End of story.
If so, how are you going to go about finding it and what do you think that will achieve?
I appreciate your concern, but this is certainly not the right place to discuss that.
Quote:
I'm not saying it's true in all cases, I am saying that it is true in some cases so people shouldn't immediately judge anyone who tries to commit suicide as being messed up,
I just don't think that a person can both be entirely sane yet have serious thoughts about committing suicide. Here's a few scenarios:
1) the person has had a shocking experience recently, or subconsciously (or increasingly consciously) is reminded of one in the distant past, perhaps even the childhood: a trauma. Be it an accident, a relative's death, a friend's death, etc. They could be confused into thinking their life was rendered worthless. However, this counts as "being messed up".
2) the person has a near-irreparable illness; chances of recovery are slim, and there's lots of pain to endure. This would most likely not result in suicide; if anything, it would be euthanasia.
I cannot, however, think of a case where there are such thoughts, yet no degree of "being messed up". People might not realize their trauma, or their confusion; they might not think things through as clearly as they believe they do. But for someone to be completely healthy, sane and stable, yet believe they should commit suicide? Nope, sorry; I don't think it's possible. Sounds contradictory to me. This is *not* me bashing people who consider suicide (I would be attacking myself!). I am merely trying to establish that I, after hours of contemplating this, and discussing it with friends as well, cannot think of such a scenario.
Quote:
though I realise that has a very loose definition and indeed if you view suicide as wrong
I think "wrong" is a too vague term. A better one might be "stupid". You are given an opportunity. Why waste it? Is there nothing at all that makes you happy any more? Looking at the sunshine? Playing a game? Watching a movie? Hanging out with old friends? Getting entertained? And if there is, even the slightest bit of positiveness, isn't that alone worth just living one day more?
Quote:
then trying to commit it by definition would be messed up. Because I don't personally view suicide as wrong, I don't consider it an irrational or messed up thing to do. In many cases, I would consider not committing suicide to be the irrational thing to do.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that, but I'm still curious about possible scenarios for that.
I should note, however, that applying "rational" or "irrational" to life doesn't work for me in the least. Nothing at all about life is logical/rational. It's completely driven by randomness, emotion and irrationality.
I don't disagree that there are times when suicide might be a reasonable option (such as for someone with a painful, terminal illness), but the are the exception and rare.
I really think we should avoid using the term "suicide" for such a situation. Euthanasia is a completely different topic. Yes, I realize that "suicide" is just "killing oneself", and that this situation does apply there, but the connotation of suicide is "killing oneself through mental motivations", as far as I'm concerned, where "mental motivations" can be anything from "I have thought my entire life through and tried to make it rational, and I failed, therefore my life has no purpose" to "I hate my life and everything it stands for, and I see no future where this could ever change".
BTW, spindler and marvin, suicide it rarely a calculated decision. Most of the time it's due to mental illness like bipolar disorder, temporary painful situations and depression, all of which are treatable and solvable. Do you guys even realize that close to 1 in 5 people with bipolar disorder kill themselves and between 25%-50% try?
I really think we should avoid using the term "suicide" for such a situation. Euthanasia is a completely different topic. Yes, I realize that "suicide" is just "killing oneself", and that this situation does apply there, but the connotation of suicide is "killing oneself through mental motivations", as far as I'm concerned, where "mental motivations" can be anything from "I have thought my entire life through and tried to make it rational, and I failed, therefore my life has no purpose" to "I hate my life and everything it stands for, and I see no future where this could ever change".
Comments
He was probably just trying to catch agood buzz
I think everyone should have the knowledge to commit suicide if they find themselves in a position where they are helpless and unhappy.
This is just so ignorant of the reality of suicide. It's great to disconnect yourself from the reality of it and get pseudo-philosophical about it from afar, but the reality is that in most cases it, like murder, is fucking stupid and not a reasonable, calculated "solution." There is an argument to be made for suicide in cases of terminal disease, but for people who are just unhappy?
But people have no obligation to their families or friends.
Bullshit. At the extreme least, if you have kids, you have an obligation not to kill yourself just because you're depressed or going through a divorce or can't handle school, etc. In fact, you even owe it to yourself not to do it. And you know what? If you think you don't owe it to the people around you not to totally fuck them over and potentially screw up every part of their lives over some little solvable issue, then that's a whole problem in itself.
How many people that you know who have committed suicide wouldn't have profousely thanked someone for stopping them? All of the people I know who committed suicide would have. People who kill themselves over bullshit and temporary emotional pain are by definition not thinking straight.
Rush Limbaugh used to take a whole bottle to the face before every show during his heyday.
Heck, probably still does...
This is just so ignorant of the reality of suicide. It's great to disconnect yourself from the reality of it and get pseudo-philosophical about it from afar, but the reality is that in most cases it, like murder, is fucking stupid and not a reasonable, calculated "solution." There is an argument to be made for suicide in cases of terminal disease, but for people who are just unhappy?
Bullshit. At the extreme least, if you have kids, you have an obligation not to kill yourself just because you're depressed or going through a divorce or can't handle school, etc. In fact, you even owe it to yourself not to do it. And you know what? If you think you don't owe it to the people around you not to totally fuck them over and potentially screw up every part of their lives over some little solvable issue, then that's a whole problem in itself.
This just goes to show how completely naive you are. I don't know how old you are but you must be under 25.
I'm not talking about 21 year olds committing suicide. By 26, you basically know what your life is and will be like.
You say you will hurt your family, as if everyone is involved in a family. Sorry, but what if you are 45, your kids hate you, you know you will never speak to them again, and two of them are on crack, and every man you have dated has hit you? You are acting as if there is always a Walton's family reunion at the end.
What if you are 45 and your husband has left you, and you have aged badly and you are just plain ugly and know you will never have another date in your life? Sorry, but look at some people, women especially, who weren't good looking to start and also aged awfully. Are they forced to live their lives out lonely and miserable to pretend that life has a fairy tale ending?
Some people just don't have the goods to lead a happy life. The worst 2% are just ugly. 20% of people are just dysfunctional and might never have had one single, happy satisfying relationship in their life. Some people, even good people, are hooked on drugs and have tried 20 times before but are unable to get off. Some people just get tired of being poor and having a crappy family with no love. And of course some people have constant physical pain. There's lots of valid reasons for suicide.
Spindler, you are one cold, fucked up dude.
Quite the opposite. I think the only life worth living is a reasonably happy one, or at least one that is not miserable. Some people's lives are bad, and that really does bother me, though I know it doesn't bother everyone.
Sorry, just because I have given deep thought to what a person's life is like when they are born mangled by some horrible disease, don't call me cold. Just because I haven't written off all the pain in this world with some vague "God has a plan for everyone." story, don't call me cold. If a person has a need to see people happy and they meet many people in life who are just unhappy, one thinks about these kinds of things, even if the results are depressing.
But in the case of suicide, it's not really that depressing. I think being dead is much more preferable than being chronically unhappy. And realistically, there are a few percentage of people who are chronically unhappy.
T.O. is a pussy.
Attempting suicide is not "being a pussy". It's "being too clouded to understand what to do in life".
Attempting suicide is not "being a pussy". It's "being too clouded to understand what to do in life".
I agree.
But read above to see that I don't believe he tried to commit suicide. My comment has nothing to do about suicide. I think he just took more than he could handle.
Spindler, you are one cold, fucked up dude.
This is just so ignorant of the reality of suicide. It's great to disconnect yourself from the reality of it and get pseudo-philosophical about it from afar, but the reality is that in most cases it, like murder, is fucking stupid and not a reasonable, calculated "solution." There is an argument to be made for suicide in cases of terminal disease, but for people who are just unhappy?
So you're saying people should just endure life no matter what? For what purpose? They are inevitably going to die sometime.
How many people that you know who have committed suicide wouldn't have profousely thanked someone for stopping them? All of the people I know who committed suicide would have. People who kill themselves over bullshit and temporary emotional pain are by definition not thinking straight.
Two people I know tried to commit suicide and one (divorced with 2 kids) was definitely not grateful when they were prevented from doing so, the other one was successful and had a wife and two kids. The unsuccessful one died within months from injuries sustained by the suicide attempt. They were not messed up people but reasonable people who made reasonable decisions.
Quite the opposite. I think the only life worth living is a reasonably happy one, or at least one that is not miserable. Some people's lives are bad, and that really does bother me, though I know it doesn't bother everyone.
Sorry, just because I have given deep thought to what a person's life is like when they are born mangled by some horrible disease, don't call me cold. Just because I haven't written off all the pain in this world with some vague "God has a plan for everyone." story, don't call me cold. If a person has a need to see people happy and they meet many people in life who are just unhappy, one thinks about these kinds of things, even if the results are depressing.
But in the case of suicide, it's not really that depressing. I think being dead is much more preferable than being chronically unhappy. And realistically, there are a few percentage of people who are chronically unhappy.
You'll find that the people most dead set against the idea of suicide tend to be the ones who really have no compassion for the human race.
I entirely agree.
They were not messed up people but reasonable people who made reasonable decisions.
I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a person who's not messed up yet commits (or attempts to commit) suicide. The very thought of committing suicide (by the way, I am suicidal, so I'm not exactly naïve to this topic) is a definite indication that something is "messed up" with the person. It is a clear indication of a mental disorder. Whether you will be able to detect it, let alone fix it, is another question, but your idea that they were "not messed up people" is just way off. It doesn't matter what kind of person you are; when you have a desire to commit suicide, something is wrong with you and you need help.
I'm sorry, but there is no such thing as a person who's not messed up yet commits (or attempts to commit) suicide. The very thought of committing suicide (by the way, I am suicidal, so I'm not exactly naïve to this topic) is a definite indication that something is "messed up" with the person. It is a clear indication of a mental disorder.
So you're saying that you have a mental disorder? Do you think you need help? If so, how are you going to go about finding it and what do you think that will achieve?
Whether you will be able to detect it, let alone fix it, is another question, but your idea that they were "not messed up people" is just way off. It doesn't matter what kind of person you are; when you have a desire to commit suicide, something is wrong with you and you need help.
I'm not saying it's true in all cases, I am saying that it is true in some cases so people shouldn't immediately judge anyone who tries to commit suicide as being messed up, though I realise that has a very loose definition and indeed if you view suicide as wrong then trying to commit it by definition would be messed up. Because I don't personally view suicide as wrong, I don't consider it an irrational or messed up thing to do. In many cases, I would consider not committing suicide to be the irrational thing to do.
This just goes to show how completely naive you are. I don't know how old you are but you must be under 25.
Don't talk down to me. Particularly when you make comments like:
I'm not talking about 21 year olds committing suicide. By 26, you basically know what your life is and will be like.
Really? Because at 26 my wife and I were still a couple years from getting married, we were still mulling over grad degrees and certainly weren't anywhere near having kids yet.
What if you are 45 and your husband has left you, and you have aged badly and you are just plain ugly...
You base your understanding of the world on two dimensional hypotheticals? What a joke. And "just plain ugly"? What are you, 12?
You are making a common amateur philosophical mistake. Your philosophy relies on an unrealistic and idealized model of human decision-making that neglects the actual real-world causes of suicide and supports it with shallow, imaginary hypothetical situations. The long and short of it is that your 10 cent philosophy based on imaginary 2D hypotheticals is all fun and games until the real world shows up at the door and someone ends up dead.
I've had to personally deal with 4 suicides in the past 10 years. The most recent was a week ago friday. He left behind two young sons, a loving family and jeopordized a whole company, including 80 jobs and millions of investors' dollars. Remember, insurance and contracts, even business ones, many times are voided by suicide. That's just the tip of the iceberg, and it's just one example. I don't need to make up hypotheticals.
So you're saying people should just endure life no matter what? For what purpose? They are inevitably going to die sometime.
No, I'm saying that your unrealistic philosophy is dangrous.
They were not messed up people but reasonable people who made reasonable decisions.
Right. Instead of helping people you care about overcome their problems, you tell them, "yeah, your life sucks. just go kill yourself."
Thank god I don't have friends or family members like you.
I am saying that it is true in some cases so people shouldn't immediately judge anyone who tries to commit suicide as being messed up,
I don't disagree that there are times when suicide might be a reasonable option (such as for someone with a painful, terminal illness), but the are the exception and rare. Advocating suicide for people who are just unhappy with a situation they are in is plain fucking stupid. End of story.
So you're saying that you have a mental disorder?
Multiple
Do you think you need help?
Yes.
If so, how are you going to go about finding it and what do you think that will achieve?
I appreciate your concern, but this is certainly not the right place to discuss that.
I'm not saying it's true in all cases, I am saying that it is true in some cases so people shouldn't immediately judge anyone who tries to commit suicide as being messed up,
I just don't think that a person can both be entirely sane yet have serious thoughts about committing suicide. Here's a few scenarios:
1) the person has had a shocking experience recently, or subconsciously (or increasingly consciously) is reminded of one in the distant past, perhaps even the childhood: a trauma. Be it an accident, a relative's death, a friend's death, etc. They could be confused into thinking their life was rendered worthless. However, this counts as "being messed up".
2) the person has a near-irreparable illness; chances of recovery are slim, and there's lots of pain to endure. This would most likely not result in suicide; if anything, it would be euthanasia.
I cannot, however, think of a case where there are such thoughts, yet no degree of "being messed up". People might not realize their trauma, or their confusion; they might not think things through as clearly as they believe they do. But for someone to be completely healthy, sane and stable, yet believe they should commit suicide? Nope, sorry; I don't think it's possible. Sounds contradictory to me. This is *not* me bashing people who consider suicide (I would be attacking myself!). I am merely trying to establish that I, after hours of contemplating this, and discussing it with friends as well, cannot think of such a scenario.
though I realise that has a very loose definition and indeed if you view suicide as wrong
I think "wrong" is a too vague term. A better one might be "stupid". You are given an opportunity. Why waste it? Is there nothing at all that makes you happy any more? Looking at the sunshine? Playing a game? Watching a movie? Hanging out with old friends? Getting entertained? And if there is, even the slightest bit of positiveness, isn't that alone worth just living one day more?
then trying to commit it by definition would be messed up. Because I don't personally view suicide as wrong, I don't consider it an irrational or messed up thing to do. In many cases, I would consider not committing suicide to be the irrational thing to do.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that, but I'm still curious about possible scenarios for that.
I should note, however, that applying "rational" or "irrational" to life doesn't work for me in the least. Nothing at all about life is logical/rational. It's completely driven by randomness, emotion and irrationality.
I don't disagree that there are times when suicide might be a reasonable option (such as for someone with a painful, terminal illness), but the are the exception and rare.
I really think we should avoid using the term "suicide" for such a situation. Euthanasia is a completely different topic. Yes, I realize that "suicide" is just "killing oneself", and that this situation does apply there, but the connotation of suicide is "killing oneself through mental motivations", as far as I'm concerned, where "mental motivations" can be anything from "I have thought my entire life through and tried to make it rational, and I failed, therefore my life has no purpose" to "I hate my life and everything it stands for, and I see no future where this could ever change".
I really think we should avoid using the term "suicide" for such a situation. Euthanasia is a completely different topic. Yes, I realize that "suicide" is just "killing oneself", and that this situation does apply there, but the connotation of suicide is "killing oneself through mental motivations", as far as I'm concerned, where "mental motivations" can be anything from "I have thought my entire life through and tried to make it rational, and I failed, therefore my life has no purpose" to "I hate my life and everything it stands for, and I see no future where this could ever change".
Good point. Agreed.