That is true, but the bandwidth that a RAID takes isn't much compared to a gfx card. For example, Apple's Fibrechannel card is 4 lanes which is more than enough for 2Gbps each way. 10G networking could theoretically max out an 8 lane slot, 10G each way. Most of those slots in that machine appear to be four or eight lane slots to me, and there are a lot of them there.
there may be 4 to 8 slots but how many lanes does the chip set have altogether
also high end Intel workstations use the came chip set and in workstations you do see high end video cards as well as hardware RAID.
Hi all. I've been hanging out at the 8-Core Mac Pro with Clovertown... in November? thread over at MacRumors since this article hit. Not news to me. Been planning on buying the Dual Clovertown since Springtime. Anyone else here been on the "waiting list" that long? We're up to 172 posts over there. Drop by if you have a chance.
I’m all for faster machines, but an update to a Mac that was just introduced two months ago strikes me as poor planning, silly, or both. It’s also disrespectful to consumers.
I don’t have a Mac pro, but I’d be very unhappy if I did and then read this story... Sure, we expect and wants Macs to be updated... once a year seems reasonable... but two or three months later? ???
You're kidding right? No way are any Macs going to be upgraded only once a year. I am one of the Dual Clovertown customers and I have been anticipating its arrival since about March. Where have you been? This is old news most Quad G5 owners have known about almost all year. For you to suggest that the current owners of Quad Mac Pros didn't know Dual Clovertowns were coming right around the corner is to suggest none of the professionals do their homework before buying.
I am sure Apple understands this and knows they need to ship Dual Clovertowns as soon as they can get them. I doubt very many Quad G5 owners bit on the Quad Mac Pro. It is barely faster than the Quad G5 and those of us who have been using a Quad G5 for the better part of a year know it is WEAK compared to what we really need.
I am 100% certain that the Dual Clovertown is not going to be fast enough for most of us. And if you think it will, then you do not have nor have envisioned a Multi-Threaded Workload.
1) Apple *probably* won't release an upgrade until early 2007... I mean look at how long it took them to incorporate C2D into their product line.
Yeah about two weeks. The C2D iMac was among the first out of the gate. What planet do you live on? They are also among the first to ship standard 2.33GHz C2D mobile computers in massive quantity right now.
Dual Clovertowns will be released November 14th, the day after Intel's Monday November 13th Core 2 Quad Shipping Press Event.
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Originally Posted by Clive At Five
2) Apple will likely offer it as an upgrade option. Like the article says, the current low-end model is the same price as a 3.0 GHz upgrade, the high-end $300 more than that.
No point in confusing customers with too many choices. One line will be added to the configure page's Processor section. It'll look like this on the config page:
Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $1399]
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Originally Posted by Clive At Five
3) In order to compete on a higher level with the likes of Dell and HP, Apple must begin offering upgrades at the rate at which they are available. You don't see Dell sitting on their hands when there is a new processor. They announce a product the next day, practically. Of course, I appreciate the quality testing that Apple does, but seriously, the time they take... is unwarranted.
Waiting until January would be missing half a selling cycle as many businesses need to buy the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro before the first of the year for tax reasons. If you are so sure Apple needs to begin selling these soon, how can you in the same post claim it won't happen until January?
Makes no business sense for Apple to hold back 8-core Mac Pros until their annual consumer show. Mac Pros have little to do with the MacWorld Expo. Star of that show will be the new iTV for Joe Blow and his family not 8-core Mac Pros.
One way in which Nvidia cards are crippled on the Mac is screen rotation. ATI cards and even the low ass GMA 950 support screen rotation in Mac OS Tiger. For some reason, rotation is not available for Nvidia cards in Mac OS even though the same cards support rotation in Windows.
Yeah no kidding. And for those of us who use Dell rotationable monitors, it's a real failure on Apple's part not to insist those rotation drivers are written by Nvidea for Mac OSX - or have someone in Cupertino do it. The ATI card option for the Mac Pro does support rotaion on the Dells thank God. \
Workstation users, sure. Not generally server users though.
Going by the sales of Alien, VooDoo, and other small makers, then tripling that number as a guess. I'd say possibly about 400 to 600 thousand a year. That's worldwide. It's just a guess.
So for a small fraction of a half million boxes per year this is more critical than the video content market why? Even if it's only tens of thousands of boxes...its not like Apple is suddenly going to capture a large share of the WINDOWS gamer market over the likes of Alien, VooDoo, etc that cater specifically to gamer needs, complete with neon lights and airbrushed cases.
That said more vidcard choices are better but the Mac Pro product IS still fairly new in a transition year. As is, its a minor miracle that Apple didn't screw up the Intel transition in some major fashion.
You don't need a 16 lane slot for a raid card, even if you had to put of your own in. Even 8 lanes would be a bit much for that. One lane has 256MB/s bandwidth.
So for a small fraction of a half million boxes per year this is more critical than the video content market why? Even if it's only tens of thousands of boxes...its not like Apple is suddenly going to capture a large share of the WINDOWS gamer market over the likes of Alien, VooDoo, etc that cater specifically to gamer needs, complete with neon lights and airbrushed cases.
That said more vidcard choices are better but the Mac Pro product IS still fairly new in a transition year. As is, its a minor miracle that Apple didn't screw up the Intel transition in some major fashion.
Vinea
Apple certainly won't suddenly capture a large percentage of the gamer market.
Who know what Apple is thinking?
But they have been seen as having plans that take years to materialize. If gamers move over in small numbers, and their experience is positive, they will relate that to their friends on the gaming sites, which will have also done reviews of Apple's products.
If all of that is favorable, we could see some momentum build up. In two or three years Apple could have a decent number of gamers on the platform. A large number of PC gamers I've spoken to over the past couple of years actually favor the Mac platform, and have looked at it wistfully. If that could translate to sales, that would be good.
I'm not denigrating the video market by any means. That was part of my business!
What I'm saying is that we shouldn't think of it as unimportant. There is likely a greater possibility of growth there then there is in the video market. That's all.
The video market is fairly mature on the Mac. It will increase, that's for sure. But Apple is already doing quite well there.
But, Apple has essentially none of the serious gamer market. Going from 0% to even 10% would bring in an entire new market to the platform, and a group of people who are greater than the video market in overall numbers.
Apple might sell Mac Pro's to them with the right cards. The same people buying $3,000 and up Alien and Voodoo machines now.
Even the iMac, particularly the 24" model, would be desireable—if a hotter card were installed.
Apple could fairly quickly gain 100 thousand sales a year to this crowd. I don't doubt that. Eventually, more.
The 500 thousand estimate is for higher end boxes, not the entire market.
But, Apple has essentially none of the serious gamer market. Going from 0% to even 10% would bring in an entire new market to the platform, and a group of people who are greater than the video market in overall numbers.
I can agree that Apple should take the gaming market a little more seriously. Offering cards that would entice gamers to buy the Mac Pro or as you suggested offer an optionally better card for the iMac. I don't see how that would hurt Apple in any way.
From what I can see the PC gaming market has been a slow decline. With console gaming making the far majority of gaming profits, the Playstation by itself pretty much outsells everything else combined.
Alienware and Voodoo will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their part of the market. Is that fight worth the trouble for Apple?
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There is likely a greater possibility of growth there then there is in the video market. That's all.
I'm not so sure about this. Because mass communication is only expanding. Its not slowing at all. Every year more and more content is being created for every type of distribution channel. With more channels of distribution being created.
Once US television goes digital there will be the opportunity for networks to use their available bandwidth to broadcast five 480P channels instead of one 1080i. Many believe this is what they will do to increase advertising revenue.
New post production companies are starting everyday. Currently established post production companies expanding to keep pace with demand for more content.
Film schools are expanding their programs to meet the demand of more student interest in the profession.
One can easily edit DV and HDV on a $699 Mac mini with FCP. That price point is one that many people willing to pay.
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Apple could fairly quickly gain 100 thousand sales a year to this crowd. I don't doubt that. Eventually, more.
Also we cannot ignore the effect of consoles on PC sales. Consoles are getting better and better. I'm sure to the point where some PC gamers will stop buying new PC's and play more with the console.
I've heard great reviews of the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. How will they effect the future of sales?
I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.
Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.
That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.
I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.
Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.
That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.
Vinea
Hmm. I've always felt Apple could take the gaming market more seriously.
But I guess other priorities came up. Like surviving...and getting back on the map...following near oblivion...turning the ship around...growth et al. Easier markets to hit than to compete with Sony PS, MS XBox, Nintendo.
Things have been turning around. And now Apple has traction in marketshare, at least in the US, at last. And in terms of notebooks? Apple's laptops can't be too bad for gaming (build in crappics not withstanding...on the Macbook...but for casual gaming...)
But as Apple moves to a marketshare of 10%? Things will begin to change. 1.61 million Macs sold is a new record. Let's say they get to 2 million a quarter. That's 8 million per year. In a four year life of a console..that translates into 32 million Macs. On top of the installed base.
That's got to be a hard market to ignore for games. Or for Apple to create that 'lower tier' Gaming tower with a dual core and a decent GPU (Macintosh Tower/Cube+.)
As Apple increases marketshare...all things become more possible.
Even the iPod is moving forward with games.
And it's worthy to note the remarkable promise of Open GL 2 improvements that are coming to Leopard. I think Apple has there eye on the gaming market. On the ball so to speak.
We may see the fruition of that with an Nvidia chipset in the iPod Video fullscreen? Maybe Apple will reveal their gaming hand at some point. Sell30-40 million of them Video eye pods in a few years and Pac Man will be the least we will get.
It wasn't so long ago that the Mac and the Apple II had some gaming credibility. Given another ten years and 100 million- in video iPod sales...in the next few years...who knows where we might be?
As to the thread title. I'd love an 8 core 2.66 octo monster for Photoshop and Lightwave. With an Nividia G80 or Ati 600... I hope Adobe actually take advantage of the Mac tech in Leopard. (Seeing what Apple have done with 'Fun house' and Aperture...)
8 x 2.66 sounds cool. But did I hear of a bump in 2007 Summer that sees us at 8x 3.47?!
Originally Posted by TenoBellFrom what I can see the PC gaming market has been a slow decline. With console gaming making the far majority of gaming profits, the Playstation by itself pretty much outsells everything else combined. There is disagreement on that issue. PC gaming this tyear has done very well. Gaming on a PC will always have an advantage over than of a console. The console may seem advanced when it first comes out, but after a year or so, the computer has gone past it. After two or three years, there is no comparison.
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Alienware and Voodoo will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their part of the market. Is that fight worth the trouble for Apple?
You're assuming that Apple has to fight for anything in that market. They don't. all they have to do is offer better cards, and they will gain marketshare. And as I've said, that market isn't shrinking.
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I'm not so sure about this. Because mass communication is only expanding. Its not slowing at all. Every year more and more content is being created for every type of distribution channel. With more channels of distribution being created.
Once US television goes digital there will be the opportunity for networks to use their available bandwidth to broadcast five 480P channels instead of one 1080i. Many believe this is what they will do to increase advertising revenue.
New post production companies are starting everyday. Currently established post production companies expanding to keep pace with demand for more content.
Film schools are expanding their programs to meet the demand of more student interest in the profession.
I'm well aware of this. But, that doesn't mean that sales will quadruple because of it. Many production studios are not at capacity now. They will add a workstation as they need it.
Studios add employees before they add equipment. They add shifts, and then weekend work.
The last thing they do is to add substantially to their hardware investment. That's always the last area to go.
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One can easily edit DV and HDV on a $699 Mac mini with FCP. That price point is one that many people willing to pay.
That, or an iMac, is the way schools, and individuals will go. But, many of those individuals are doing low quality work, and will end up with a cheap PC and Premiere. They won't be buying Macs.
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Also we cannot ignore the effect of consoles on PC sales. Consoles are getting better and better. I'm sure to the point where some PC gamers will stop buying new PC's and play more with the console.
I've heard great reviews of the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. How will they effect the future of sales?
I doubt that console sales prevent the sale of even one computer. People who want a computer will buy one. Those who don't, won't.
I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.
Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.
That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.
Vinea
That's what I'm saying.
The business market is very difficult to break into. Apple needs a division of sales personnel who can deal with it. They have to change their strategy of silence on their software and hardware roadmaps. They must freeze machine specs for two or three years when companies make those multi year purchase plan commitments. And more.
All they have to do to entice gamers is to add a few more video cards.
You're assuming that Apple has to fight for anything in that market. They don't. all they have to do is offer better cards, and they will gain marketshare. And as I've said, that market isn't shrinking.
So you are saying there is nothing Alienware and Voodoo can do to protect their market?
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The last thing they do is to add substantially to their hardware investment. That's always the last area to go.
But they do spend significant amounts of money on new equipment. They are adopting new technology to enable them to do more work faster. Because their competition is adopting new technology to do the same
One particular company I know rents their Avid systems. Which enables them to cycle new systems about every 18 months. They do this to stay on the technology curve and compete.
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I doubt that console sales prevent the sale of even one computer.
That's a pretty definitive statement. How do you know this for sure?
I'm sure there is a group of people who are staunch PC gamers who shun console gaming. But logically speaking looking over the entire gaming market and looking at the rise of consoles their has to be some number of PC gamers who decide console gaming is good enough and do not buy a new PC gaming rig.
Add to that people who could potentially be PC gamers but are console gamers in greater numbers
[QUOTE=TenoBell]So you are saying there is nothing Alienware and Voodoo can do to protect their market? [quote]
what I'm saying is that I read some of the gamer sites, and have spoken to more than a few myself. A good number of them would like to get a Mac, but couldn't, because of the game situation.
Boot Camp is changing that. They don't mind booting into Boot Camp to play games.
But, they need better video cards. And they want the ones THEY want. Mid range and top range cards from BOTH ATI and Nvidia.
All Apple has to do to gain those people as customers is to either provide cards themselves, or help to pay for development of firmware and drivers by others. It's been done before.
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But they do spend significant amounts of money on new equipment. They are adopting new technology to enable them to do more work faster. Because their competition is adopting new technology to do the same
One particular company I know rents their Avid systems. Which enables them to cycle new systems about every 18 months. They do this to stay on the technology curve and compete.
Adopting new equipment is a part of the business that must be taken care of. I continually bought newer equipment on a regular cycle.
But, that's different from expanding your shop. We, and others, always did new hires first. Only when sales increase to the point of requiring new equipment did we buy it.
It also has to be understood that most shops simply don't have much space for expansion. That means renting more floor, and an expensive, and long term, committment.
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That's a pretty definitive statement. How do you know this for sure?
It's no more definitive than any of the statements you've made about it.
It's also pretty logical. If you want a game console, and you don't care about computers, then you will only buy a game console.
If you want to get online, and do what is only done conveniently with a real computer, you will buy one of those.
The add ons for the PS2 and XBox to allow for this were dismal failures.
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I'm sure there is a group of people who are staunch PC gamers who shun console gaming. But logically speaking looking over the entire gaming market and looking at the rise of consoles their has to be some number of PC gamers who decide console gaming is good enough and do not buy a new PC gaming rig.
Most people I know who like games play both. But a bunch don't have a console. I don't know any gamer above the age of ten who doesn't have a computer as well, though I'm sure there must be a few.
All Apple has to do to gain those people as customers is to either provide cards themselves, or help to pay for development of firmware and drivers by others. It's been done before.
I understand that. With this being a niche market that is the primary market for Alienware and Voodoo. Would they just sit and watch as Apple so effortlessly takes away a portion of their market? Would they not do something to leverage gamer loyalty? The same as Sony and Microsoft do.
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Adopting new equipment is a part of the business that must be taken care of. But, that's different from expanding your shop.
Yes I know my point was irrespective of expansion or hiring new people they are always investing in new equipment.
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Only when sales increase to the point of requiring new equipment did we buy it.
Which is my entire point. Mass communication is a growing field. New content is always being create along with new ways of distributing content. Which will increase sales for any post house that can accommodate the extra work.
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It also has to be understood that most shops simply don't have much space for expansion. That means renting more floor, and an expensive, and long term, committment.
Yes this has been happening. Technicolor New York, Goldcrest Post New York, and Able Cine Tech are three companies in the last couple of years who have had major expansions in New York. They all moved into buildings occupying more floor space than they previously needed.
In the case of Technicolor NY and Goldcrest Post they both invested millions into new equipment for their new facilities.
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It's also pretty logical. If you want a game console, and you don't care about computers, then you will only buy a game console.
There will be those people out there who would have previously spent $1500 to $2000 on a PC. That will decide with my limited entertainment dollars it will be better for me to buy a 36" flat screen HDTV and a Playstation 3.
The only question I see is will that be a few PC gamers or a lot of PC gamers.
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The add ons for the PS2 and XBox to allow for this were dismal failures.
Microsoft reports XBOX Live as a success. Either way both they and Sony are spending lots of money on their online gaming so it will improve.
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I don't know any gamer above the age of ten who doesn't have a computer as well, though I'm sure there must be a few.
Most every male friend I know own one or more of the three major console machines. I only know two people who regularly play games on PC.
I understand that. With this being a niche market that is the primary market for Alienware and Voodoo. Would they just sit and watch as Apple so effortlessly takes away a portion of their market? Would they not do something to leverage gamer loyalty? The same as Sony and Microsoft do.
You've missed my twice stated point. There isn't anything Alien, Voodoo, or any other PC company can do, if their customers want another platform, and now have the excuse to get one.
If their customers want a Mac, and can now play PC games on it, what can these companies do?
They compete with each other. Apple has had that same problem. If someone wanted a PC, they weren't going to get a Mac, no matter what.
The toe is being put into the water, tentative though it might be. If the cards are there, it will happen.
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Which is my entire point. Mass communication is a growing field. New content is always being create along with new ways of distributing content. Which will increase sales for any post house that can accommodate the extra work.
Any expansion of work will not be so quick. The broadcast companies won't be producing much new material so quickly. Most of what we will se will be paid commercials, or old programming. They aren't going to rush out a pour hundreds of millions into new shows. Hell, they can barely afford the ones they have on now!
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Yes this has been happening. Technicolor New York, Goldcrest Post New York, and Able Cine Tech are three companies in the last couple of years who have had major expansions in New York. They all moved into buildings occupying more floor space than they previously needed.
In the case of Technicolor NY and Goldcrest Post they both invested millions into new equipment for their new facilities.
And Technocolor is in serious financial trouble. I don't know about Goldcrest, I haven't dealt with them.
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There will be those people out there who would have previously spent $1500 to $2000 on a PC. That will decide with my limited entertainment dollars it will be better for me to buy a 36" flat screen HDTV and a Playstation 3.
I doubt that very much. Games and computers are very different animals. computers can substitute for consoles, but consoles can't substitute for computers.
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The only question I see is will that be a few PC gamers or a lot of PC gamers.
A lot of PC gamers.
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Microsoft reports XBOX Live as a success. Either way both they and Sony are spending lots of money on their online gaming so it will improve.
That's not what I was talking about. I was mentioning the accessories that would allow the boxes to be used as limited computers, and access the internet, email, etc.
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Most every male friend I know own one or more of the three major console machines. I only know two people who regularly play games on PC.
That's unusual. But, I'll bet they all have computers, and use them regularly.
The broadcast companies won't be producing much new material so quickly. Most of what we will se will be paid commercials, or old programming. They aren't going to rush out a pour hundreds of millions into new shows. Hell, they can barely afford the ones they have on now!
Really it does not cost that much to actually produce a movie or television show. Most of that money is going directly into the pockets of producers, directors, and actors. It appears the conglomerate parent companies are getting tired of Hollywoods inefficient spending and will force them to go through some painful restructuring.
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And Technocolor is in serious financial trouble.
How so? Technicolor is owned by the French electronics giant THOMSON. I haven't heard of THOMSON being in serious financial trouble and they've been expanding Technicolor.
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That's unusual. But, I'll bet they all have computers, and use them regularly.
How is that unusual? The console market is several times larger than the PC gaming market.
Really it does not cost that much to actually produce a movie or television show. Most of that money is going directly into the pockets of producers, directors, and actors. It appears the conglomerate parent companies are getting tired of Hollywoods inefficient spending and will force them to go through some painful restructuring.
Half hour episodes of even situation comedies run a quarter million. Hour episodes of action shows run up to $1.5 million.
they only make money (hopefully) when they are in re-run, and have been on for at least three years with original episodes.
So, yes, it is very expensive. This is one of the biggest problems being discussed today in television.
The only restructuring you are going to see is more programs being brought inhouse. That cuts costs by about 25%.
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How so? Technicolor is owned by the French electronics giant THOMSON. I haven't heard of THOMSON being in serious financial trouble and they've been expanding Technicolor.
They are. divisions of companies have their own balance sheets, as you must know.
Like Chrysler losing $1.2 billion dollars most recently, even though it is part of Mercedes.
They are talking of cutting it loose again.
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How is that unusual? The console market is several times larger than the PC gaming market.
That's not a universally agreed upon opinion. Gamers who have consoles may play, and buy, more games. But it isn't agreed that there are more of them, or that they are completely seperate from PC gamers. Most often, they are the same person.
Comments
That is true, but the bandwidth that a RAID takes isn't much compared to a gfx card. For example, Apple's Fibrechannel card is 4 lanes which is more than enough for 2Gbps each way. 10G networking could theoretically max out an 8 lane slot, 10G each way. Most of those slots in that machine appear to be four or eight lane slots to me, and there are a lot of them there.
there may be 4 to 8 slots but how many lanes does the chip set have altogether
also high end Intel workstations use the came chip set and in workstations you do see high end video cards as well as hardware RAID.
I’m all for faster machines, but an update to a Mac that was just introduced two months ago strikes me as poor planning, silly, or both. It’s also disrespectful to consumers.
I don’t have a Mac pro, but I’d be very unhappy if I did and then read this story... Sure, we expect and wants Macs to be updated... once a year seems reasonable... but two or three months later? ???
You're kidding right? No way are any Macs going to be upgraded only once a year. I am one of the Dual Clovertown customers and I have been anticipating its arrival since about March. Where have you been? This is old news most Quad G5 owners have known about almost all year. For you to suggest that the current owners of Quad Mac Pros didn't know Dual Clovertowns were coming right around the corner is to suggest none of the professionals do their homework before buying.
I am sure Apple understands this and knows they need to ship Dual Clovertowns as soon as they can get them. I doubt very many Quad G5 owners bit on the Quad Mac Pro. It is barely faster than the Quad G5 and those of us who have been using a Quad G5 for the better part of a year know it is WEAK compared to what we really need.
I am 100% certain that the Dual Clovertown is not going to be fast enough for most of us. And if you think it will, then you do not have nor have envisioned a Multi-Threaded Workload.
1) Apple *probably* won't release an upgrade until early 2007... I mean look at how long it took them to incorporate C2D into their product line.
Yeah about two weeks. The C2D iMac was among the first out of the gate. What planet do you live on? They are also among the first to ship standard 2.33GHz C2D mobile computers in massive quantity right now.
Dual Clovertowns will be released November 14th, the day after Intel's Monday November 13th Core 2 Quad Shipping Press Event.
2) Apple will likely offer it as an upgrade option. Like the article says, the current low-end model is the same price as a 3.0 GHz upgrade, the high-end $300 more than that.
No point in confusing customers with too many choices. One line will be added to the configure page's Processor section. It'll look like this on the config page:
Two 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon [Add $1399]
3) In order to compete on a higher level with the likes of Dell and HP, Apple must begin offering upgrades at the rate at which they are available. You don't see Dell sitting on their hands when there is a new processor. They announce a product the next day, practically. Of course, I appreciate the quality testing that Apple does, but seriously, the time they take... is unwarranted.
Waiting until January would be missing half a selling cycle as many businesses need to buy the Dual Clovertown Mac Pro before the first of the year for tax reasons. If you are so sure Apple needs to begin selling these soon, how can you in the same post claim it won't happen until January?
Makes no business sense for Apple to hold back 8-core Mac Pros until their annual consumer show. Mac Pros have little to do with the MacWorld Expo. Star of that show will be the new iTV for Joe Blow and his family not 8-core Mac Pros.
One way in which Nvidia cards are crippled on the Mac is screen rotation. ATI cards and even the low ass GMA 950 support screen rotation in Mac OS Tiger. For some reason, rotation is not available for Nvidia cards in Mac OS even though the same cards support rotation in Windows.
Yeah no kidding. And for those of us who use Dell rotationable monitors, it's a real failure on Apple's part not to insist those rotation drivers are written by Nvidea for Mac OSX - or have someone in Cupertino do it. The ATI card option for the Mac Pro does support rotaion on the Dells thank God.
Workstation users, sure. Not generally server users though.
Going by the sales of Alien, VooDoo, and other small makers, then tripling that number as a guess. I'd say possibly about 400 to 600 thousand a year. That's worldwide. It's just a guess.
So for a small fraction of a half million boxes per year this is more critical than the video content market why? Even if it's only tens of thousands of boxes...its not like Apple is suddenly going to capture a large share of the WINDOWS gamer market over the likes of Alien, VooDoo, etc that cater specifically to gamer needs, complete with neon lights and airbrushed cases.
That said more vidcard choices are better but the Mac Pro product IS still fairly new in a transition year. As is, its a minor miracle that Apple didn't screw up the Intel transition in some major fashion.
Vinea
Severs have hardware raid cards in them.
Servers often have RAID built-into the mobo.
You don't need a 16 lane slot for a raid card, even if you had to put of your own in. Even 8 lanes would be a bit much for that. One lane has 256MB/s bandwidth.
there may be 4 to 8 slots but how many lanes does the chip set have altogether
also high end Intel workstations use the came chip set and in workstations you do see high end video cards as well as hardware RAID.
If it's the same Woodcrest chipset, the 5000 series, it should have the same total number of lanes the Mac Pro has, which I think is 26.
So for a small fraction of a half million boxes per year this is more critical than the video content market why? Even if it's only tens of thousands of boxes...its not like Apple is suddenly going to capture a large share of the WINDOWS gamer market over the likes of Alien, VooDoo, etc that cater specifically to gamer needs, complete with neon lights and airbrushed cases.
That said more vidcard choices are better but the Mac Pro product IS still fairly new in a transition year. As is, its a minor miracle that Apple didn't screw up the Intel transition in some major fashion.
Vinea
Apple certainly won't suddenly capture a large percentage of the gamer market.
Who know what Apple is thinking?
But they have been seen as having plans that take years to materialize. If gamers move over in small numbers, and their experience is positive, they will relate that to their friends on the gaming sites, which will have also done reviews of Apple's products.
If all of that is favorable, we could see some momentum build up. In two or three years Apple could have a decent number of gamers on the platform. A large number of PC gamers I've spoken to over the past couple of years actually favor the Mac platform, and have looked at it wistfully. If that could translate to sales, that would be good.
I'm not denigrating the video market by any means. That was part of my business!
What I'm saying is that we shouldn't think of it as unimportant. There is likely a greater possibility of growth there then there is in the video market. That's all.
The video market is fairly mature on the Mac. It will increase, that's for sure. But Apple is already doing quite well there.
But, Apple has essentially none of the serious gamer market. Going from 0% to even 10% would bring in an entire new market to the platform, and a group of people who are greater than the video market in overall numbers.
Apple might sell Mac Pro's to them with the right cards. The same people buying $3,000 and up Alien and Voodoo machines now.
Even the iMac, particularly the 24" model, would be desireable—if a hotter card were installed.
Apple could fairly quickly gain 100 thousand sales a year to this crowd. I don't doubt that. Eventually, more.
The 500 thousand estimate is for higher end boxes, not the entire market.
But, Apple has essentially none of the serious gamer market. Going from 0% to even 10% would bring in an entire new market to the platform, and a group of people who are greater than the video market in overall numbers.
I can agree that Apple should take the gaming market a little more seriously. Offering cards that would entice gamers to buy the Mac Pro or as you suggested offer an optionally better card for the iMac. I don't see how that would hurt Apple in any way.
From what I can see the PC gaming market has been a slow decline. With console gaming making the far majority of gaming profits, the Playstation by itself pretty much outsells everything else combined.
Alienware and Voodoo will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their part of the market. Is that fight worth the trouble for Apple?
There is likely a greater possibility of growth there then there is in the video market. That's all.
I'm not so sure about this. Because mass communication is only expanding. Its not slowing at all. Every year more and more content is being created for every type of distribution channel. With more channels of distribution being created.
Once US television goes digital there will be the opportunity for networks to use their available bandwidth to broadcast five 480P channels instead of one 1080i. Many believe this is what they will do to increase advertising revenue.
New post production companies are starting everyday. Currently established post production companies expanding to keep pace with demand for more content.
Film schools are expanding their programs to meet the demand of more student interest in the profession.
One can easily edit DV and HDV on a $699 Mac mini with FCP. That price point is one that many people willing to pay.
Apple could fairly quickly gain 100 thousand sales a year to this crowd. I don't doubt that. Eventually, more.
Also we cannot ignore the effect of consoles on PC sales. Consoles are getting better and better. I'm sure to the point where some PC gamers will stop buying new PC's and play more with the console.
I've heard great reviews of the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. How will they effect the future of sales?
Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.
That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.
Vinea
I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.
Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.
That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.
Vinea
Hmm. I've always felt Apple could take the gaming market more seriously.
But I guess other priorities came up. Like surviving...and getting back on the map...following near oblivion...turning the ship around...growth et al. Easier markets to hit than to compete with Sony PS, MS XBox, Nintendo.
Things have been turning around. And now Apple has traction in marketshare, at least in the US, at last. And in terms of notebooks? Apple's laptops can't be too bad for gaming (build in crappics not withstanding...on the Macbook...but for casual gaming...)
But as Apple moves to a marketshare of 10%? Things will begin to change. 1.61 million Macs sold is a new record. Let's say they get to 2 million a quarter. That's 8 million per year. In a four year life of a console..that translates into 32 million Macs. On top of the installed base.
That's got to be a hard market to ignore for games. Or for Apple to create that 'lower tier' Gaming tower with a dual core and a decent GPU (Macintosh Tower/Cube+.)
As Apple increases marketshare...all things become more possible.
Even the iPod is moving forward with games.
And it's worthy to note the remarkable promise of Open GL 2 improvements that are coming to Leopard. I think Apple has there eye on the gaming market. On the ball so to speak.
We may see the fruition of that with an Nvidia chipset in the iPod Video fullscreen? Maybe Apple will reveal their gaming hand at some point. Sell30-40 million of them Video eye pods in a few years and Pac Man will be the least we will get.
It wasn't so long ago that the Mac and the Apple II had some gaming credibility. Given another ten years and 100 million- in video iPod sales...in the next few years...who knows where we might be?
As to the thread title. I'd love an 8 core 2.66 octo monster for Photoshop and Lightwave. With an Nividia G80 or Ati 600... I hope Adobe actually take advantage of the Mac tech in Leopard. (Seeing what Apple have done with 'Fun house' and Aperture...)
8 x 2.66 sounds cool. But did I hear of a bump in 2007 Summer that sees us at 8x 3.47?!
Lemon Bon Bon.
[quote
Alienware and Voodoo will fight tooth and nail to hold onto their part of the market. Is that fight worth the trouble for Apple?
You're assuming that Apple has to fight for anything in that market. They don't. all they have to do is offer better cards, and they will gain marketshare. And as I've said, that market isn't shrinking.
I'm not so sure about this. Because mass communication is only expanding. Its not slowing at all. Every year more and more content is being created for every type of distribution channel. With more channels of distribution being created.
Once US television goes digital there will be the opportunity for networks to use their available bandwidth to broadcast five 480P channels instead of one 1080i. Many believe this is what they will do to increase advertising revenue.
New post production companies are starting everyday. Currently established post production companies expanding to keep pace with demand for more content.
Film schools are expanding their programs to meet the demand of more student interest in the profession.
I'm well aware of this. But, that doesn't mean that sales will quadruple because of it. Many production studios are not at capacity now. They will add a workstation as they need it.
Studios add employees before they add equipment. They add shifts, and then weekend work.
The last thing they do is to add substantially to their hardware investment. That's always the last area to go.
One can easily edit DV and HDV on a $699 Mac mini with FCP. That price point is one that many people willing to pay.
That, or an iMac, is the way schools, and individuals will go. But, many of those individuals are doing low quality work, and will end up with a cheap PC and Premiere. They won't be buying Macs.
Also we cannot ignore the effect of consoles on PC sales. Consoles are getting better and better. I'm sure to the point where some PC gamers will stop buying new PC's and play more with the console.
I've heard great reviews of the XBox 360 and Playstation 3. How will they effect the future of sales?
I doubt that console sales prevent the sale of even one computer. People who want a computer will buy one. Those who don't, won't.
I think that Apple views the gamer market in about the same light as the business market. Great where they can get some sales but not a targetted market. For the home it seems that Apple's strategy is TV since the gamer market is being fought over by MS, Sony, Nintendo.
Rather than try for that market with the mini (and better video) they pretty much just conceed the fight in the money losing hardware battle for new entrants. Same as they do for the large but low margin low-cost PC business market. iTV + Mini (or iMac) is positioned to co-exist with a Wii or PS3. Somewhat less so with at 360 since its a MCE as well.
That kind of thinking likely carries over to the Mac Pro since few gamers are in that $2K range anyway and the Pro is not a machine you want to lug to a LAN party... But what the heck, a couple more vidcards STILL wouldn't hurt and wouldn't take away from their overall strategy. I can see that it's probably not high on their lists of things to do right away thought.
Vinea
That's what I'm saying.
The business market is very difficult to break into. Apple needs a division of sales personnel who can deal with it. They have to change their strategy of silence on their software and hardware roadmaps. They must freeze machine specs for two or three years when companies make those multi year purchase plan commitments. And more.
All they have to do to entice gamers is to add a few more video cards.
You're assuming that Apple has to fight for anything in that market. They don't. all they have to do is offer better cards, and they will gain marketshare. And as I've said, that market isn't shrinking.
So you are saying there is nothing Alienware and Voodoo can do to protect their market?
The last thing they do is to add substantially to their hardware investment. That's always the last area to go.
But they do spend significant amounts of money on new equipment. They are adopting new technology to enable them to do more work faster. Because their competition is adopting new technology to do the same
One particular company I know rents their Avid systems. Which enables them to cycle new systems about every 18 months. They do this to stay on the technology curve and compete.
I doubt that console sales prevent the sale of even one computer.
That's a pretty definitive statement. How do you know this for sure?
I'm sure there is a group of people who are staunch PC gamers who shun console gaming. But logically speaking looking over the entire gaming market and looking at the rise of consoles their has to be some number of PC gamers who decide console gaming is good enough and do not buy a new PC gaming rig.
Add to that people who could potentially be PC gamers but are console gamers in greater numbers
what I'm saying is that I read some of the gamer sites, and have spoken to more than a few myself. A good number of them would like to get a Mac, but couldn't, because of the game situation.
Boot Camp is changing that. They don't mind booting into Boot Camp to play games.
But, they need better video cards. And they want the ones THEY want. Mid range and top range cards from BOTH ATI and Nvidia.
All Apple has to do to gain those people as customers is to either provide cards themselves, or help to pay for development of firmware and drivers by others. It's been done before.
But they do spend significant amounts of money on new equipment. They are adopting new technology to enable them to do more work faster. Because their competition is adopting new technology to do the same
One particular company I know rents their Avid systems. Which enables them to cycle new systems about every 18 months. They do this to stay on the technology curve and compete.
Adopting new equipment is a part of the business that must be taken care of. I continually bought newer equipment on a regular cycle.
But, that's different from expanding your shop. We, and others, always did new hires first. Only when sales increase to the point of requiring new equipment did we buy it.
It also has to be understood that most shops simply don't have much space for expansion. That means renting more floor, and an expensive, and long term, committment.
That's a pretty definitive statement. How do you know this for sure?
It's no more definitive than any of the statements you've made about it.
It's also pretty logical. If you want a game console, and you don't care about computers, then you will only buy a game console.
If you want to get online, and do what is only done conveniently with a real computer, you will buy one of those.
The add ons for the PS2 and XBox to allow for this were dismal failures.
I'm sure there is a group of people who are staunch PC gamers who shun console gaming. But logically speaking looking over the entire gaming market and looking at the rise of consoles their has to be some number of PC gamers who decide console gaming is good enough and do not buy a new PC gaming rig.
Most people I know who like games play both. But a bunch don't have a console. I don't know any gamer above the age of ten who doesn't have a computer as well, though I'm sure there must be a few.
All Apple has to do to gain those people as customers is to either provide cards themselves, or help to pay for development of firmware and drivers by others. It's been done before.
I understand that. With this being a niche market that is the primary market for Alienware and Voodoo. Would they just sit and watch as Apple so effortlessly takes away a portion of their market? Would they not do something to leverage gamer loyalty? The same as Sony and Microsoft do.
Adopting new equipment is a part of the business that must be taken care of. But, that's different from expanding your shop.
Yes I know my point was irrespective of expansion or hiring new people they are always investing in new equipment.
Only when sales increase to the point of requiring new equipment did we buy it.
Which is my entire point. Mass communication is a growing field. New content is always being create along with new ways of distributing content. Which will increase sales for any post house that can accommodate the extra work.
It also has to be understood that most shops simply don't have much space for expansion. That means renting more floor, and an expensive, and long term, committment.
Yes this has been happening. Technicolor New York, Goldcrest Post New York, and Able Cine Tech are three companies in the last couple of years who have had major expansions in New York. They all moved into buildings occupying more floor space than they previously needed.
In the case of Technicolor NY and Goldcrest Post they both invested millions into new equipment for their new facilities.
It's also pretty logical. If you want a game console, and you don't care about computers, then you will only buy a game console.
There will be those people out there who would have previously spent $1500 to $2000 on a PC. That will decide with my limited entertainment dollars it will be better for me to buy a 36" flat screen HDTV and a Playstation 3.
The only question I see is will that be a few PC gamers or a lot of PC gamers.
The add ons for the PS2 and XBox to allow for this were dismal failures.
Microsoft reports XBOX Live as a success. Either way both they and Sony are spending lots of money on their online gaming so it will improve.
I don't know any gamer above the age of ten who doesn't have a computer as well, though I'm sure there must be a few.
Most every male friend I know own one or more of the three major console machines. I only know two people who regularly play games on PC.
I understand that. With this being a niche market that is the primary market for Alienware and Voodoo. Would they just sit and watch as Apple so effortlessly takes away a portion of their market? Would they not do something to leverage gamer loyalty? The same as Sony and Microsoft do.
You've missed my twice stated point. There isn't anything Alien, Voodoo, or any other PC company can do, if their customers want another platform, and now have the excuse to get one.
If their customers want a Mac, and can now play PC games on it, what can these companies do?
They compete with each other. Apple has had that same problem. If someone wanted a PC, they weren't going to get a Mac, no matter what.
The toe is being put into the water, tentative though it might be. If the cards are there, it will happen.
Which is my entire point. Mass communication is a growing field. New content is always being create along with new ways of distributing content. Which will increase sales for any post house that can accommodate the extra work.
Any expansion of work will not be so quick. The broadcast companies won't be producing much new material so quickly. Most of what we will se will be paid commercials, or old programming. They aren't going to rush out a pour hundreds of millions into new shows. Hell, they can barely afford the ones they have on now!
Yes this has been happening. Technicolor New York, Goldcrest Post New York, and Able Cine Tech are three companies in the last couple of years who have had major expansions in New York. They all moved into buildings occupying more floor space than they previously needed.
In the case of Technicolor NY and Goldcrest Post they both invested millions into new equipment for their new facilities.
And Technocolor is in serious financial trouble. I don't know about Goldcrest, I haven't dealt with them.
There will be those people out there who would have previously spent $1500 to $2000 on a PC. That will decide with my limited entertainment dollars it will be better for me to buy a 36" flat screen HDTV and a Playstation 3.
I doubt that very much. Games and computers are very different animals. computers can substitute for consoles, but consoles can't substitute for computers.
The only question I see is will that be a few PC gamers or a lot of PC gamers.
A lot of PC gamers.
Microsoft reports XBOX Live as a success. Either way both they and Sony are spending lots of money on their online gaming so it will improve.
That's not what I was talking about. I was mentioning the accessories that would allow the boxes to be used as limited computers, and access the internet, email, etc.
Most every male friend I know own one or more of the three major console machines. I only know two people who regularly play games on PC.
That's unusual. But, I'll bet they all have computers, and use them regularly.
The broadcast companies won't be producing much new material so quickly. Most of what we will se will be paid commercials, or old programming. They aren't going to rush out a pour hundreds of millions into new shows. Hell, they can barely afford the ones they have on now!
Really it does not cost that much to actually produce a movie or television show. Most of that money is going directly into the pockets of producers, directors, and actors. It appears the conglomerate parent companies are getting tired of Hollywoods inefficient spending and will force them to go through some painful restructuring.
And Technocolor is in serious financial trouble.
How so? Technicolor is owned by the French electronics giant THOMSON. I haven't heard of THOMSON being in serious financial trouble and they've been expanding Technicolor.
That's unusual. But, I'll bet they all have computers, and use them regularly.
How is that unusual? The console market is several times larger than the PC gaming market.
Really it does not cost that much to actually produce a movie or television show. Most of that money is going directly into the pockets of producers, directors, and actors. It appears the conglomerate parent companies are getting tired of Hollywoods inefficient spending and will force them to go through some painful restructuring.
Half hour episodes of even situation comedies run a quarter million. Hour episodes of action shows run up to $1.5 million.
they only make money (hopefully) when they are in re-run, and have been on for at least three years with original episodes.
So, yes, it is very expensive. This is one of the biggest problems being discussed today in television.
The only restructuring you are going to see is more programs being brought inhouse. That cuts costs by about 25%.
How so? Technicolor is owned by the French electronics giant THOMSON. I haven't heard of THOMSON being in serious financial trouble and they've been expanding Technicolor.
They are. divisions of companies have their own balance sheets, as you must know.
Like Chrysler losing $1.2 billion dollars most recently, even though it is part of Mercedes.
They are talking of cutting it loose again.
How is that unusual? The console market is several times larger than the PC gaming market.
That's not a universally agreed upon opinion. Gamers who have consoles may play, and buy, more games. But it isn't agreed that there are more of them, or that they are completely seperate from PC gamers. Most often, they are the same person.