kpom

crowley said:

kpom said:

No, the Scottish Parliament can't veto a Brexit. They can symbolically withhold consent, but foreign policy is a matter reserved for Westminster.

Sure, but Westminster doesn't want Brexit either.  They aren't that many Tory backbenchers.  The Scottish withholding consent may be used as a spanner in the works, even if only for delay.

Leaving is the only viable option for the UK. If they come back with "we didn't really mean it," then they lose all credibility with the other 27 members and won't be taken seriously in negotiations on any other subject. The Commission doesn't seem to be willing to make any concessions to convince the UK to stay, even though Britain is a net importer to the rest of the EU. So effectively Britain is like Norway and Switzerland for the moment in that they have no real influence over policy, except that they are still in the EU. So they might as well go ahead with leaving, even if it means taking the Norwegian/Swiss deal at first.

crowley said:

apple ][ said:

The UK will have access to the entire world now. Screw the EU. 

As for education, it doesn't seem that your side was able to educate and convince the voters of your argument. They were obviously not convinced and didn't fall for all of the lies, racism and propaganda coming from your side.

They weren't convinced by the mostly well-formulated economic and political arguments because the debate became toxic with the single issue of immigration due to the Leave campaign's distortions (which I have already given examples of in this thread, where are your examples of "lies, racism and propaganda"?) and the Remain campaigns poor judgement in its messaging.

Give over with this idiots guide to the EU Referendum.  You clearly know next to nothing about it, which makes your gloating all the more in poor taste.

While certainly an element of the Leave vote was anti-immigration, I doubt that 17.4 million votes were. A lot of Thatcherite Conservatives are Euroskeptic on principle. They are the ones least likely to have voted on the basis of immigration. Instead, they don't want any further part of the inevitable political union that would occur if the EU is to succeed in the long run. The Greek crisis showed that monetary union without political union is a recipe for disaster. The migrant crisis showed that the EU has yet to achieve a common foreign policy. The likely EU response over the coming years (at least what would have been likely before the Brexit vote) is to push for further political integration. As a non-eurozone member and one skeptical of further political union, the UK's influence within the EU would have declined regardless.


On a side note, it will be interesting to see if Theresa May emerges as a "compromise" choice to be the next PM/Conservative Party leader.

apple ][ said:

kpom said:

Anyway, this should be required reading for anyone who wants to understand why Leave won. https://hbr.org/2016/06/if-your-argument-is-based-on-economics-youve-already-lost

I haven't read that article yet, but as usual, it seems as if I am right on the money, because I see the headline, and that's what I claimed earlier in the thread, that economics was not the most important issue.

Basically the point is that you can't win an emotional vote using an argument grounded solely in reason. The Remain side spent way too much time arguing about policy details and let the Leave side dominate with an appeal to patriotism.

apple ][ said:

blitz1 said:

Being racist has somehow become socially acceptable again.

That is wonderful!

What leftists call racism is of course not racism at all, but we need lots more of it, and it's here to stay! Yeah baby!

The world has improved considerably since the Brexit vote.

Here's also another clue. There are lots more "racists" (according to vile leftists) in Europe, and they'll be making their voices heard soon too!

This is fantastic and just wonderful! I am very happy! As much as leftists and globalists are upset about Brexit, I am the inverse, and I am extremely glad!

A part of it is the "boy who cried wolf" syndrome. There is a tendency among many on the political left to attribute policy disagreements to "racism" or "sexism." That is a losing formula in the long run. Eventually people ignore those claims, and even if an actual racist runs people tune out the message.

What strikes me is all the talk of how "illegitimate" the vote was since "only" 72.2% of voters participated, the margin was "only 51.9% to 48.1%," "Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to Remain," etc. If the vote were 50.1% Remain to 49.9% Leave, I doubt there would be much handwringing about how "England and Wales voted to Leave" and how "unfair" it is that they are being forced to Remain by the Scots and Northern Irish. Similarly, if the vote were 51.9% Remain 48.1% Leave, I'm sure it would have been described not as a "narrow" win, but a "decisive, nearly 4% margin" for Remain.