avon b7

StrangeDays said:

EU fanboys: “Follow the DMA or don’t release in our market!”


Apple: “Ok.” (doesn’t release)


EU fanboys: “You can’t do that! Come back here, mister!”

…lol. Sorry dudes, you can’t *make* a company release the products or features you want. This is still a private business, not a state-run entity. 

And how did you reach the conclusion that the EU wants to *make* Apple release a product or feature in the EU? 

She didn't say that. She said this:

"I think that is the most sort of stunning, open declaration that they know 100% that this is another way of disabling competition, where they have a stronghold already."

Firstly, it's clearly a personal opinion, and secondly, at this point in time at least, it is not far off the mark with regards to Apple's 'competition' issues within the EU. 

radarthekat said:

avon b7 said:

rob53 said:

avon b7 said:

This:

"Specifically, we are concerned that the interoperability requirements of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity of our products in ways that risk user privacy and data security," said Apple. "We are committed to collaborating with the European Commission in an attempt to find a solution that would enable us to deliver these features to our EU customers without compromising their safety."

And then this:

"From previous statements including ones to AppleInsider, it's known that Apple has been continually working with the EU on its responses to the DMA, so it's reasonable to assume that will continue.

Leads to the question: Why even bother putting the subject into the public domain if communication and clarification are ongoing? 

Far better to say as little as possible until things are clarified. All it takes is clarification and all for a roll out that isn't even planned for this year! 

Basically FUD on Apple's part and Vestager has a valid point in her response to a question that wouldn't have been asked if it weren't for Apple. 

Basically FUD on the part of EU-loving commenters. Apple has a right to provide whatever capabilities it wants to in whatever country/region it wants to. You're buying a product with certain features. There's nothing that says Apple has to provide the EU with everything it has the capability of including. The EU can demand Apple provide everything but that's not the way companies work. This is a brand new Apple capability and Apple has the right to provide it when they feel it's ready, not when a corrupt EU demands it. At this point, I feel Apple is well within its rights to start charging for features in countries it wants to. As far as I'm concerned, Apple should start charging for macOS, iOS, tvOS, iPadOS along with every Apple app and feature it wants to. I'd like to see the EU try and force Apple to provide everything for free. It isn't going to happen.

No one is disputing Apple's right to bring or not bring certain features to the EU. That is up to them and is irrelevant here. 

The point is 'making a meal out of something' and putting it down to the DMA even when Apple itself claims it's in contact with the EU on the subject and also claims not to know what is possible or not. 

It's all completely unnecessary on Apple's part. Why not simply ask the EU and wait for a reply? 

Maybe Apple feels a bit of obligation to both inform its EU customer base and to disclose to its investors information that might be material to its business.  

Hardly. We are talking about features that in all probability were never mapped to see the light of day in the EU until next year. They won't even fully reach the US until next year. 

It was completely unnecessary on Apple's part and if it were 'material to its business', much better to tread carefully and not speculate when they quite clearly haven't clarified with the relevant bodies what the requirements are. 

Xed said:

avon b7 said:

This:

"Specifically, we are concerned that the interoperability requirements of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity of our products in ways that risk user privacy and data security," said Apple. "We are committed to collaborating with the European Commission in an attempt to find a solution that would enable us to deliver these features to our EU customers without compromising their safety."

And then this:

"From previous statements including ones to AppleInsider, it's known that Apple has been continually working with the EU on its responses to the DMA, so it's reasonable to assume that will continue.

Leads to the question: Why even bother putting the subject into the public domain if communication and clarification are ongoing? 

Far better to say as little as possible until things are clarified. All it takes is clarification and all for a roll out that isn't even planned for this year! 

Basically FUD on Apple's part and Vestager has a valid point in her response to a question that wouldn't have been asked if it weren't for Apple. 

This isn't about clarification if the EU can simply choose to fine Apple even when Apple is following the law to a tee... which we've already seen the EU do with Apple. Apple communicating as to why the can't reasonably and safely include Apple Intelligence while the EU are playing games is about as far from FUD as you can get.

It is about clarification and the EU can't simply choose to fine Apple. 

If Apple is following the law to a tee I'd like to know how you reached that conclusion, especially seeing as the EU hasn't made anything public in terms of Apple Intelligence because Apple hasn't even brought it to the EU market. 

Apple would have to do something. The EU would have to investigate it. A conclusion would have to be drawn and if necessary corrections or a fine imposed. From there on there is the appeals procedure. 

If Apple is in fact following the laws to a tee it will be a stroll in the park for the company. 

Your claim that the EU has already simply fined Apple is very shaky as it is in the middle of the process that I just outlined. Apple can (and surely is going to) appeal. 

It's not shut up and pay up. 

And that fine also included past anti-competitve behaviour. 

Obviously things are nowhere near as clear cut as you seem to be implying.

We will simply have to wait and see things wind their way through the legal process. 

anonymouse said:

gatorguy said:

thrang said:

gatorguy said:

rob53 said:

avon b7 said:

This:

"Specifically, we are concerned that the interoperability requirements of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity of our products in ways that risk user privacy and data security," said Apple. "We are committed to collaborating with the European Commission in an attempt to find a solution that would enable us to deliver these features to our EU customers without compromising their safety."

And then this:

"From previous statements including ones to AppleInsider, it's known that Apple has been continually working with the EU on its responses to the DMA, so it's reasonable to assume that will continue.

Leads to the question: Why even bother putting the subject into the public domain if communication and clarification are ongoing? 

Far better to say as little as possible until things are clarified. All it takes is clarification and all for a roll out that isn't even planned for this year! 

Basically FUD on Apple's part and Vestager has a valid point in her response to a question that wouldn't have been asked if it weren't for Apple. 

Basically FUD on the part of EU-loving commenters. Apple has a right to provide whatever capabilities it wants to in whatever country/region it wants to. You're buying a product with certain features. There's nothing that says Apple has to provide the EU with everything it has the capability of including. The EU can demand Apple provide everything but that's not the way companies work. This is a brand new Apple capability and Apple has the right to provide it when they feel it's ready, not when a corrupt EU demands it. At this point, I feel Apple is well within its rights to start charging for features in countries it wants to. As far as I'm concerned, Apple should start charging for macOS, iOS, tvOS, iPadOS along with every Apple app and feature it wants to. I'd like to see the EU try and force Apple to provide everything for free. It isn't going to happen.

Vestager is not suggesting that Apple needs to deliver AI features to EU users. What she notes is that Apple's statement seems to imply they are not anxious to offer features where competition will be required. Not that it matters in the real world since Apple isn't rolling out some of those features this fall outside of the US and in English anyway, correct? If so, why did Apple say anything at all? My sense is it's a negotiating tactic.

Apple could care less about straight and fair competition. The EU is mandating nothing of the sort. It is forcing them to aide and abet competitors to sell within its IP boundaries, mandate that it has to happen, determine if they can charge or how much they charge for the ability to do so. Its a virus-level intrusion to an alarming level.

Apple is not the only tech required to abide by the DMA as a condition of selling in the EU market. They are not being singled out with rules that apply only to them.

Remind me, which EU companies have been ruled gatekeepers?

There have been an awful lot in every single country of the EU. Their powers were curtailed years ago. To the point that an ICT company (Telefonica) has asked the Spanish government to ease up on the obligations placed on it, on the grounds that competition has left it being just another competitor among many. The same has applied to energy companies, rail companies, airlines etc.

What you really mean is gatekeepers in the digital age and that is why we have the DSA/DMA specifically to deal with that.

Those companies that enjoyed 'first mover' status (mostly from the US) are those that got a foothold and have tried to stifle competition as the technology has evolved. 

It's also why the US wanted to 'control' the internet. 

The EU is laying the groundwork with these regulations to level the playing field. 

I would not rule out a 'consortium' effort at some point if things don't play out. Imagine Airbus for mobile devices. 

thrang said:

avon b7 said:

rob53 said:

avon b7 said:

This:

"Specifically, we are concerned that the interoperability requirements of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity of our products in ways that risk user privacy and data security," said Apple. "We are committed to collaborating with the European Commission in an attempt to find a solution that would enable us to deliver these features to our EU customers without compromising their safety."

And then this:

"From previous statements including ones to AppleInsider, it's known that Apple has been continually working with the EU on its responses to the DMA, so it's reasonable to assume that will continue.

Leads to the question: Why even bother putting the subject into the public domain if communication and clarification are ongoing? 

Far better to say as little as possible until things are clarified. All it takes is clarification and all for a roll out that isn't even planned for this year! 

Basically FUD on Apple's part and Vestager has a valid point in her response to a question that wouldn't have been asked if it weren't for Apple. 

Basically FUD on the part of EU-loving commenters. Apple has a right to provide whatever capabilities it wants to in whatever country/region it wants to. You're buying a product with certain features. There's nothing that says Apple has to provide the EU with everything it has the capability of including. The EU can demand Apple provide everything but that's not the way companies work. This is a brand new Apple capability and Apple has the right to provide it when they feel it's ready, not when a corrupt EU demands it. At this point, I feel Apple is well within its rights to start charging for features in countries it wants to. As far as I'm concerned, Apple should start charging for macOS, iOS, tvOS, iPadOS along with every Apple app and feature it wants to. I'd like to see the EU try and force Apple to provide everything for free. It isn't going to happen.

No one is disputing Apple's right to bring or not bring certain features to the EU. That is up to them and is irrelevant here. 

The point is 'making a meal out of something' and putting it down to the DMA even when Apple itself claims it's in contact with the EU on the subject and also claims not to know what is possible or not. 

It's all completely unnecessary on Apple's part. Why not simply ask the EU and wait for a reply? 

Apple is an enormous company with billions of users and one of the high market capitalizations in the world. It is likely incumbent on them to announce this interim intention as it may impact financial results or investor opinion/analysis of the company. If Craig Federighi loses a single hair from his mane, Apple may make it public....

No interim intentions necessary for a feature set that hadn't even had a date set for non-English native regions (all of the EU). 

On a personal level I can see exactly what Apple is trying here because it is the route they've chosen from the outset. 

'Malicious compliance' followed by pushback from the EU. Apple then makes changes (which it spins as concessions) to comply, but actually remains non-compliant and then plays off those initial changes as a 'defence' for remaining non-compliant. "Hey! We've already made a bunch of changes to satisfy you!"

That won't work. The EU will simply counter with "you weren't compliant from the outset and remain non-compliant now, here is your fine"