wunderfitz

rob53 said:

phillyfanatic09 said:

In the end, Europe could simply price Apple out of their market. Apple is a for profit company. If the fines exceed Apple’s profits in Europe, why do business there?

Fine with me. Once Apple leaves the EU cartel, the people will start screaming or simply find a way to get Apple products outside of the EU. Use a VPN to download software and treat your devices as being in the US. 

Well, @rob53, apparently Apple seems to care enough about markets outside of the US (since apparently those markets are profitable, and Apple MAKES money...), so they should comply with non-US laws.
They're wealthy enough to be able to afford to ensure compliance in both markets OR challenge the laws. If Apple wanted to leave those markets to competitors like Samsung, Huawei, etc. they would do so. But they don't.

Why don't you cry my a river??

Well - perhaps Siri will then finally better understand what I SAY....

Is it just me, or has Siri become more stupid over time? Please don't answer if you're American or British, because Siri was designed for you and therefore works best for you.

Try Siri in another language while driving, and pray that it will return with another answer than "I did not understand that", or "Look what I found on the internet" (prompting you to do all the unsafe things that Apple professes to keep you from doing while you're on the Autobahn)... Or play Parov Stelar instead of the requested Beethoven.

I vaguely remember that I was genuinely impressed with Siri's deep "understanding" when it first became available in Europe. I am quite sure that it has lost much of that depth.

Now, **I** have to watch YouTube videos or take online courses to learn what questions I can safely ask / how to ask them / and what things will not work with Siri.
Some PDA.... Honestly, the time it takes Siri to understand and do what I want by far surpasses the time to just pick up the phone and use my finger.

Perhaps it will help if it can not only hear my voice, but see my lips as well, but I won't hold my breath.

georgie01 said:

wunderfitz said:

… when I want it to do something a PA should do…

I am SOOOO glad I can use Google Maps on my iPhone, and I want it to stay that way. And if I get more choice on how to pay, search, navigate or do other stuff with my iPhone, I'll have it!
…
But I will continue to embrace other apps (like Google Maps) as they work so much better for me than Apple-branded apps which simply aren't as good as the competition.

I think you’re missing an important point. Why shouldn’t Apple, or anyone, be allowed to make a  product which you consider crappy? Why should the government be allowed to force companies to make their product in a way the government believes is good when there is no health or safety issue?

The way a market thrives is through accepting and promoting the reality that you are welcome to buy a different product or develop your own. Any other approach will eventually stifle the market, guaranteed.

Hi, Georgie, with all due respect, I think YOU are missing the point of the legislation, and that you don't understand that some rules are needed in order for a market to work:
The EU does NOT want to dictate how Apple should develop their products or prevent them from releasing inferior products. Apple is welcome to release what they want, as long as it's legally compliant AND they don't FORCE customers to use it just because they use another product from them.
BTW - I was coming on a bit strong when I said Apple Maps and Siri are crappy. They're nice, but - let's face it - they probably work better in San Francisco than in the rest of the world. 

Just because I buy the iPhone product should not automatically imply that I MUST also choose the Apple Maps product, that I cannot use anything else but the Siri product, pay via Apple, get my apps from a single (Apple) source, send texts only to iPhone users, use only Safari, etc. etc.. Most of these things are already possible, so one of the biggest remaining problems here is that Apple could be required to review its App Store policies. That discussion is anything but new - even in the US. So I don't understand why most people here are getting so worked up.
 
..."welcome to buy a different product or develop your own". Congratulations - you've stated pretty much what the EU wants. Except that it should work like this even if it isn't in Appe's interest. It is difficult for me to grasp that you put forward the arguments that govern the EU initiative, but that you apply them to only one perspective. I guess you see the entire Apple ecosystem as "the product", and say "take the bundle or leave it", whereas many people (including many Americans) want to be able to customize the ecosystem - even in ways that Apple doesn't like. Maybe some of the initiatives don't make a lot of sense or are unreasonable? E.g. I don't see WhatsApp, iMessage and SMS/MMS become interoperable any time soon.

But I suspect that many of you are getting worked up over the fact that a FOREIGN legislative body wants to create a level playing field for all companies that want to be active in Europe, which is an opinion that I would expect from an orange-skinned politician, not the informed US public.
I say that because similar initiatives are being contemplated by your own legislative bodies, and many Corporate practises are being challenged even in North America. Go watch what (US American) Louis Rossman has to say about the "Right to Repair" a MacBook or an iPhone. I'm not even mentioning Epic or Meta vs. Apple, because those 2 have their own hidden agendas. No American would go to Rossman and tell him "well, if Apple wants to dry up your business, you have to lie down and let them, because otherwise you'll stifle the market. You're welcome to create your own locked-down JPhone, repair Android phones, or do dishwashers instead". 

As I've said in other posts - Apple wouldn't be in the European market if it weren't profitable for them. It will continue to be profitable for them. But I also think it's good that some entity sets the stage for companies and consumers to interact fairly.

22july2013 said:

wunderfitz said:
For God's Sake - the EU just wants to foster CHOICE ! 

"The EU just wants to foster choice"? So what happens if Apple leaves the EU as a result of the intrusions on Apple's product and service design? How does that foster choice? It seems like the exact opposite to me. Choice exists because of freedom, not because of rules and decrees.

Geez - what are you smoking?

Do you know how many BILLIONS of taxes Apple is sidestepping in Europe?
I'm not asking because I think Apple or Big Tech are unfairly avoiding taxes (which we all know they are), or because I advocate the EU tax "system" (which we all know is a mess).
I'm asking because "based on a detailed investigation, the [EU] commission found Apple was able to effectively reduce its tax bill on the sales and activities of some of its European and global operations to 0.005%" (The Washington Post, July 15th 2020). This allows them to avoid paying 15 BILLION USD in back taxes. 

Can you IMAGINE what their revenue is in Europe? And what would happen to Apple's value if they pulled out of Europe?

Your argument is just as inane as someone asking "What if VW pulled out of the US, because they feel treated unfairly by US regulators over the emissions scandal?".

As if a company could "punish" a group of countries by withholding their products.

Will VW pull out of the US because your courts are so mean, and withhold German cars from the US market so that they can continue to spew more emissions into the atmosphere without punishment?  Ridiculous, right? But perhaps useful to adjust your perspective. The only thing Courts are telling VW is to abide by ecological standards and environmental laws. The US will still be an important market and be good business. But OF COURSE VW will complain.
 
Will Apple pull out of Europe because regulators want them to ALLOW CHOICE? Well - time will tell, but I think you know as well as I do, that Apple can still make a good buck even if they abide by antitrust regulations. And having a big, blank spot on one of the world's mega markets with roughly 450 MILLION citizens (and that's without the UK) is bad for their image AND their balance sheet. But OF COURSE, Apple (and madbum) will complain and melt into tears.

And what if VW or Apple actually WERE to pull out of the US / the EU respectively?

The world will continue to turn. Even without VW in the US or Apple in Europe. You will buy some GM or Japanese car instead, and Europeans will buy Samsung, and we'll all survive. We all have other fish to fry.

Oh - and one more thing.... "Choice exists because of freedom, not because of rules and decrees": 
I'm assuming you are a US citizen... The fact that today you are able to choose between AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile for your telecommunication needs, between Chevron, Mobil / ExxonMobil, etc. for your gasoline needs, between Edge, Safari, Opera, Chrome, and Firefox for your browsing needs was LARGELY brought about by regulations and decrees.

Once again - it's called CHOICE - and YOU invented it (thank you, actually!)

Madbum said:

Actually EU is one of Apple smaller markets compared to North America and Asia

Much of the EU uses cheap android phones

Actually Apple
might just leave the EU because their share is so small there. UK is the biggest market and they are no longer in the EU

say what you will about China or India , they don’t do this retarded shit to Apple

AND

Reading what EU is acting like communists and trying to destroy Apple  make me kind of want Putin to destroy Europe …

Wow - you really don't like Europe, do you? And don't really understand what this proposed legislation is about, do you?

For God's Sake - the EU just wants to foster CHOICE !
Why is this so hard to grasp? The US paved the way by breaking up Bell and ordering Microsoft to stop their anticompetitive behavior with IE? Is it so insulting to you that this time it is happening in another part of the world?

The number and the tone of comments from huffy Americans in this forum is absolutely amazing - people who think that milk is produced in bottles, electricity comes from power outlets, that the economy will regulate itself for the best of mankind, and that there's really not much outside of the USA. 

Hint: none of this is true!

Siri and Apple Maps suck WATERMELONS outside of your bubble. You probably don't know, because so many US Americans speak at most one language or have never been outside of their country. ½ of the time, Siri gleefully replies "look what I found on the Internet", when I want it to do something a PA should do (and which looks SOOO easy and convenient on Apple's commercials). It is not so helpful if you speak another language, and when you're driving at 130 mph on the highway and have to read on a smartphone what you could have essentially googled.

10+% of POIs on Apple Maps went out of business AGES ago (Google is much, much more up-to-date). Stop telling the rest of the world that "Apple Maps is the best way to explore and navigate the world" - it is NOT! It still isn't - at least outside of the US - even 10 years after it went live. I will decide against the polished eye candy from Apple Maps as long as Google Maps and other apps are more USEFUL.

I am SOOOO glad I can use Google Maps on my iPhone, and I want it to stay that way. And if I get more choice on how to pay, search, navigate or do other stuff with my iPhone, I'll have it!

Yes, I love my iPhone and my iMac. I had a company S6 and a private iPhone 7 and convinced the company that iPhones are more useful, and will save us money in the long run, because I could prove that we have fewer support issues on iOS. I will continue using the Apple App Store because I totally get Apple's point in this matter, and I will buy other Apple products. But I will continue to embrace other apps (like Google Maps) as they work so much better for me than Apple-branded apps which simply aren't as good as the competition.

Google is a US American Company as well - so this is not about "you" against "us", "Americans" against "Europeans" (who should get destroyed by Putin). It's about CHOICE, and allowing each individual to decide for themselves what works best for them. Are you so offended because someone else is advocating a change in terms this time?

Apple leaving the "EU because their share is so small there"? In your dreams. Yes, Europeans like Apple's (or Samsung's) smartphones like the next person in this world. And Apple likes our money.
So go to your corner and continue to sulk there while the rest of the world moves on.

BTW, "UK is the biggest market and they are no longer in the EU": you're mixing up "market" with market share. UK population: 67 million. EU population: 448 million.