altivec88

thedba said:

altivec88 said:

jkichline said:

rogifan_new said:

There are legitimate questions about the Mac lineup. It's pretty bad when even John  Gruber is like WTF Apple regarding the Mac Pro. What reason do they have for not updating it for 3 years and not reducing the price? If Apple doesn't want to be in the pro market then discontinue the product. Same thing with the router business. Those products are woefully out of date. Either update them or kill them. But it does call into question why Apple seems to be struggling from a bandwith perspective. Other than the iPhone - which they have no choice but to update every year at the same time - it seems like it's a struggle to get stuff out the door. Is Apple's functional org structure hurting them? Would things be different if there was one person responsible for the Mac and nothing else?

It's simple. The Skylake architecture for the E5 class of Xeon processors was originally road mapped for Late 2015 and haas been delayed by Intel until early 2017.  It has nothing to do with Apple, it has everything to do with their vendor, Intel.

Not True at all.   The lack of a MacPro is 100% completely on Apple's shoulders.

The Xeon E5 has been refreshed twice since 2013.  Although the refreshes were not dramatic if you compare the same core count (12 core vs 12 core),  the updated Xeon E5v4 maxes out at 22 cores where as the E5v2 that Apple is using maxes out at 12 cores.  With Apple's poor decision to rip out a whole processor for the sake of smallness set them behind right from the start, you would think they would be more vigilant to keep up with core counts when a processor is available.  For those of us that require cores, a 22 core is a significant leap over 12.  The 44 core systems utilizing 2 CPU's that competitors are selling make the MacPro look like cruel joke.

Since they did not change the pricing throughout the past 3 years, even if the E5 was not refreshed by intel (which as I explained above that it was), there were major advancements in GPU's,  IO,  SSD's  that they could have easily slowly refreshed in that time.   An update does not need to be dramatic with much fanfare.  If they would have simply kept up with current tech on a $10k computer, we would have bought several throughout the last couple of years.   The blatant ignoring of the product, with no price drops to compensate for the lower costs they are paying for old tech, has made us buy none.   This has turned our once happy to be using Apple products company frustrated and angry beyond belief.   

According to Intel (http://ark.intel.com/search/advanced?s=t&ProcessorNumber=E5-), the first 20 or so core Xeon CPU's were released Q1'2016.  Could it be that Apple wanted to also include Thunderbolt 3 and those configurations weren't ready yet?
Would it have been wise to upgrade the machine with Thunderbolt 2 technology only to re-upgrade it a year later with Thunderbolt 3?

Just asking.

Yes the E5v4 (maxing at 22 cores) was released Q1-2016 which is basically a year ago and the E5v3 (maxing at 16 cores) was released Q1-2015 which is 2 years ago.   Both Dell and HP updated their machines with-in a month of these dates.  Why didn't Dell and HP have an excuse to wait for thunderbolt 3.  Because, you can say that about every component.  Now that TB3 is available, why not just wait for the new GPU around the corner.  But when that is released, now there is a new CPU that's just around the corner.  etc.

I get what you are saying and I agree to wait for a component if we are talking a month here or there.   The MacPro hasn't been updated in 3+ freaking years!! They missed two CPU refreshes that were the same socket design and had the same thermal properties.  Which means the only thing they literally had to do is change which chips they were ordering and stick them in.  The advancement of GPU's in the past 3 years has been even more dramatic but yet their $10k machine is not even capable of doing simple VR.  They put USB-C in their low end MacBook almost a year ago for pete sake.   How can you guys keep making excuses for Apple when it comes to the MacPro?   Their is absolutely no defence for their blatant incompetence to this product and this market.

macxpress said:

k2kw said:

altivec88 said:

freeper said:

As Amazon refuses to sell Apple TV (or Chromecast) products that compete with the awful Fire TV, I am not certain that an Alexa competitor by Apple would have been sold by Amazon either. 

I agree... But some of those that wanted a home type of device like this that would have chose Apple are now in the Amazon Eco system.  Lets face it, Apple is the new Microsoft.  Big Goliath thats slow to react to anything.  They just can't walk and chew gum anymore.  They can only update the iPhones yearly, the rest of their lineup is either a nuisance and gets cancelled or just a hobby that gets updates every 3 to 4 years.  Meanwhile Tim has been talking about amazing pipelines while other companies are selling actual products.  I remember a time when the opposite was true (ahh the good old days)

You nailed it.

Ahh no he didn't...he just spewed out BS is all he did. 

With your oh so eloquent informative rebuttal, I'm just wondering which part of my post is BS?

a) People that wanted this type of device would have bought Apple instead of Amazon if Apple had one.
b) Apple is slow to react (3 to 4 years between computer updates, no home device that others have had over a year, no 4k Apple TV that others have had over a year.  Maps App is anemically slow to update and add cities, Siri in last place, No computers capable of doing VR, I can go on and on...)
c) Tim always talks about amazing pipelines but yet read my point B
d) all of the above

Its one thing to say you don't agree with something and state your opinion as to why,  its another thing to say someone is spewing BS without backing up your claim.  So again, Tell me which of my points are BS?

Who said I discounted everything they did.  You clearly don't understand the difference between accomplishments and success. They don't go hand in hand.  There are and were a lot of companies that accomplished amazing things but were never successful for one reason or another. 

Although in earlier years Apple accomplished amazing things, they were struggling in terms of success from a company stand point.  If you can't understand this, I can't help you much. 

Soli said:

altivec88 said:
I consider Apple's road to success stared in 1997.

I consider Apple's road to success started on 01 April 1976. I can't even begin to imagine how you think they they were unsuccessful before that. Do you really to know what they did for the PC industry? Do you not understand what Jobs, Woz, and all those early employees did to change the world starting with their very first Apple computer?

There is major disgruntlement like I've never seen before and all Tim does is talk about amazing pipelines and road maps.  I've heard those words numerous times.  Where are these amazing products?

It's really to see where they are...

• http://apple.com

...unless you're wanting to know where these pipeline products Cook only mentioned a week ago are at. In that case, you need to come back down to Earth… assuming you were ever here with that statement.

Way to cherry pick a statement.  There is a difference between "doing something for the PC industry" and being a successful company.  Even with all of Apple's accolades and "changing of the world", If you don't know how close they were from bankruptcy, I suggest you look it up.   No matter how good you are/were, if you rest on your laurels, you will fall.   When bean counters run your company like Gil Amelio and now Tim Cook, that completely suck the passion out of the company and solely focus on profits, history is forced to repeat itself.

You point me to Apple's website for this Amazing pipeline but other than the iPhone, I don't see anything that is much different than it was 5 years ago and even the iPhone isn't much different really.  I guess yours and Tims version of amazing is much different than mine.  At least 5 years ago they had Mac Pro's that were competitive.  In fact I would still buy 2010 MacPro's over what they are selling today, Which is a sad reality.

Okay, now that I am back to Earth.  Are you referring to Tim's last weeks "Macs are important" and "amazing desktops are on a road map somewhere" speech that he says all the time.   Yah his words mean a lot to me when we go 3+ years without updates.  He could at least have some decency to not blow smoke up people's ssses.  If you really believe that desktops are important to him, I've got some swamp land I would like to sell you.

Soli said:

wigby said:

altivec88 said:

freeper said:

As Amazon refuses to sell Apple TV (or Chromecast) products that compete with the awful Fire TV, I am not certain that an Alexa competitor by Apple would have been sold by Amazon either. 

I agree... But some of those that wanted a home type of device like this that would have chose Apple are now in the Amazon Eco system.  Lets face it, Apple is the new Microsoft.  Big Goliath thats slow to react to anything.  They just can't walk and chew gum anymore.  They can only update the iPhones yearly, the rest of their lineup is either a nuisance and gets cancelled or just a hobby that gets updates every 3 to 4 years.  Meanwhile Tim has been talking about amazing pipelines while other companies are selling actual products.  I remember a time when the opposite was true (ahh the good old days)

Depends on how you define "selling". Apple is slower than they once were…

Slower? You know they went from the Mac in 1984 to the iPod in 2001. That's a 17 year span between adding a new major HW category. Then 6 years for the iPhone, which was an amazing feat, yet it still took another 3 years for the iPad even though its OS is closer to any other major product category that came before. The Apple Watch came 5 years later, and then that was arguable a year too soon due to its compact size, and now we're almost into 2017 so that's not very long time since the Watch. If only looking at OSes, having to strip macOS down and rebuild it up as iOS for iPhone and then reimage the UI again for iOS for iPad, and then strip down iOS and rebuild it for watchOS are amazing feats. Now we see that the T1 chip in the new MBPs has striped down watchOS and rebuilt it to at least run its TouchID and Apple Pay service, and possibly its Touch Bar and other aspects of their new notebooks. Then you have all the other chip designs they've done with the A-series, W-series for AirPods, and whatever other designs they have in the pipeline

What I don't get is how we can look at a 17 year divide between the Mac and iPod and a 6 year divide between the iPod and iPhone, and the variety of products they have with an unbelievable number of unit sales that are so unmatched that other vendors are selling out of simpler HW with less a 100k units sold over several months. Can you explain why you think Apple is "slower" with millions of sales on an opening weekend, a considerably larger marketplace, and considerably deeper integration of their devices from the processor to the cloud-based services? I just can't see how anyone can look at the company and see them moving at being lazy and sluggish.

Comparing years between major product announcement has nothing to do with slowness.  I consider Apple's road to success stared in 1997.   If Steve jobs didn't jump in, Apple was a few months away from bankruptcy.  The first thing Steve did was announce that they were going to make the best computers.  Their are several videos of him saying things such as you are only as good as your worst products and that everything must be updated on a yearly cycle.  I wish Tim would take a look at those.  From bankruptcy to the worlds largest company was on Steve's tenure and it was because he stuck to his formula and did not tolerate excuses. I don't think there would be as much griping if Tim just followed Steve's formula.

Now they have over a hundred thousand employees, state of the art facilities, global and financial resources but yet they can no longer make a case for monitors or have enough staff to have a router team.  Machines that their pros and most loyal customers require for critical work have been ignored for over 3 years.  There is major disgruntlement like I've never seen before and all Tim does is talk about amazing pipelines and road maps.  I've heard those words numerous times.  Where are these amazing products?   Then you here that Apple wants to be a service company.  Unless you happen to live in select chosen cities, their services are extremely sub par.  I gave Maps years of grace period but I live in a major city in Canada and their is still no 3D maps or transit data and major roads never get updated.  When you see only a few cities a year get added to the list for these things, you realize that its going to take Apple like 8000 years to do the world.  So yes, Apple Maps is great for a select few but to the rest of the world it is well below the competition.  Which goes back to you are only as good as your worst products.  When people around the world compare it to google maps, they go, wow, google is far superior and then they think that must go for other products as well.  So either you show interest in every product you make or get out.  Having 3+ year old MacPro's and crappy services just weakens the brand.

With record profits, I completely understand its hard to understand these criticisms.  These profits are derived from the momentum Steve created and Tim is riding the wave based on which products make the most money.   The cost of ignoring the other products is something that most companies would die to have, Apple's culture and the loyal fan base.   When you lose it, you are just like every other tech company.  Eventually your key products stumbles or is no longer cool, and you get dumped for something else.  This doesn't happen over night.  Just like its hard to stop the upward momentum Apple is seeing today, when it starts going the other way its hard to impossible to stop the bleeding unless you have other products to soften the fall.  Although, Apple has lost a lot of Pro customers, as others have said, I think they still have one last chance to save that market if they can hit a home run with a new Mac Pro really soon here.  But, if the plan is to ignore it for another 3 to 4 years after that, then they might as well announce they are out of the Pro market instead of stringing us a long again.