macplusplus

I’m not an economist or marketing expert but these year-on-year growth/decline numbers of market share (not profit) seem so irrelevant to me that they are not worth discussing. Some experts may certainly read these differently, but my inner voice says these point to a very (or somewhat) consistent market picture. The market’s tectonic plates didn’t move so much as to create a 7.4 earthquake, fault lines just rearrange themselves with tiny adjustments.

Rayer said:

elijahg said:

jdw said:

The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.

The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.

Both the notch and the price keep me from considering an iPhone. There is no reason for the notch to be there. When you look at the top of the iPhone to the bottom of the notch, it is the same height or less than all the other iPhones that came before it. So what did it gain you? Nothing good. Now videos are either cut into or you have a black bar where one would have been anyway if they didn't have the notch. I currently have an almost 2 year old Pixel 2 and refused to update to the Pixel 3 because they raised the price $150 without adding $150 in value. I would have considered the iPhone XR because the price is slightly better than the P3 and probably going to be better than the P4, but not as long as there is a notch 

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

jdw said:

The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.

The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.

If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.

Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.

We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !

It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.

What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...

You are not addressing the points I made:

Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

You veered off into a rant on other points.

Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.

First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!

To your surprise Face ID is used to authorize a payment today, authorizing payments is one the reasons of Face ID’s security. If Face ID wasn’t secure banks would reject Apple Pay. Face ID coupled with Apple Pay got the security seal from the banks, where are you living to not understand that?

Security is well the idea, it is almost all idea behind such a personal item as a smartphone. Data Protection Directive and alike, EU is struggling to provide the most secure digital life to citizens like you, you just cannot ridicule security under the pretext of convenience. Face ID is both secure and convenient. Convenience precedes security and it is a prerequisite for security, since the human is the worst factor in implementing a security scheme. If it is not convenient, it is not secure either. This is why Apple didn’t move Touch ID behind the phone. Instead of implementing it in such an inconvenient way, they removed it altogether until a more convenient implementation on a full screen iPhone. If you want to philosophize on technology I can feed you during hours and hours but I hope you have better things to do.

If you want security you use accepted secure measures. There are a few to choose from. They are all trade-offs to a degree.

But what does security have to do with convenience? Nothing.

And if convenience includes a level of security but not enough to authorise a bank payment, your options grow bigger. There are tradeoffs to consider. Should iPhone 8 series users be denied the option? Even understanding the lower security angle? Simply because their phones do not have 3D depth sensing?

Virtually the entire Android flagship world offers the feature. It was great before FaceID arrived and it's still great now. And by the way, the 'contextual' part of face detection was also implemented long before FaceID. As was eye tracking to kmow if you were actually looking at the screen or not (to turn it off for power saving).

What is your point with 'FaceID can authorise payments today'? The Mate 20 Pro does exactly the same thing today. I suppose some Xiaomi phones too. Other phones simply ask for a fingerprint.

Appreciating convenience has absolutely nothing to do with ridiculing anything. 

Security is security.
Convenience is convenience.

If convenience comes with a degree of security, it is simply a plus.

Where on earth did you get the idea of ridiculing?

If convenience is a prerequisite for security, why did (does?) Apple allow users to NOT set a passcode? Convenience can lead to NO security. That said, in the trade-offs involved in security, convenience, reliability, accuracy and speed are important factors.

Rear mounted fingerprint sensors were/are purely a case of user preference. IMO, the best place for them. I love them on the back and have debunked countless claims to the contrary (often from people who have never even used one).

However, you are drifting from what you originally said, namely that no other phone had made good use of 3D depth sensing technology and that Android vendors had given up on face identification.

Both affirmations are incorrect.

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

jdw said:

The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.

The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.

If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.

Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.

We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !

It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.

What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...

You are not addressing the points I made:

Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

You veered off into a rant on other points.

Face recognition without 3D depth sensing can be easily fooled by a flat picture. You become boring sometimes.

First, it isn't easily fooled with the latest algorithms but that is besides the point.

As I said face identification was used long before FaceID but as a convenience feature. It was never used as a security feature and why I believe you could never use it to authorise a payment for example. Other biometrics handle that.

However, just having the option on a non-FaceID iPhone would be welcome for many users. Options are nice. Remember, 'security' isn't the idea! Convenience is!

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

avon b7 said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

jdw said:

The continued presence of the "notch" coupled with what consumers perceive as the biggest bang for the buck is no doubt driving this.

The notch doesn't concern me personally, but the price does. I'll always (within reason) be loyal to Apple, but more and more people are looking at Apple's £1000 phones and thinking "nah, you know what, I'm going to switch to Android," where they get 75% of the features for 25% of the price. Some of the Chinese Android phones really are surprisingly good, even at the £250 price bracket. My friend's £250 Xiaomi has incredible low-light camera performance. Makes the Xs look like something from 5 years ago.

Current iPhone toting friends are either holding off on a 5s sized device, or as I am, cheaper phones. The flagship 6s was £650 which was pretty good bang for your buck. It was way better than any other phone then. The flagship Xs is now £1000, but hardware wise is it really that much better than the competition? Is it really that much better than the 6s? Software is of course much better than Android, but that was already factored into the £650 iPhone's cost. The Xs is certainly not £350 better than my 6s was at the time.

If you consider Face ID and the Neural Engine yes, it is. Competitors have already given up face identification on behalf of “almost notchless” phones. Face ID is the only successful tech in that domain. Is it luxurious or burlesque? Absolutely not because you get it as cheap as $750, even cheaper with trade in on the XR. Don’t underestimate that Face ID assembly, it may open a whole growth domain to the iPhone such as health: face analysis, iris analysis, and even more (imagine a Siri that can detect makeup errors or suggest hair style ). It is not a fancy Animoji tool. The Watch acquired a whole health and fitness domain thanks to its heart rate sensors.

Apple’s another superiority is its use of the same CPU across all models of the same generation. Competitors offer differing CPUs by country even in the same model, those may differ even by store or by batch, there is no guarantee. So you get an A12 iPhone for as low as $750 and even cheaper with trade in. I am very glad I could buy an A11 iPhone 8+ substantially cheaper than iPhone X.

Android hasn't given up on face identification. It was used long before FaceID, (which is simply one - expensive - form of face identification and using 3D depth sensing) and is still widely used as a convenience biometric. It is a shame that Apple doesn't offer the same convenience options for iPhones without 3D depth sensing.

Also, FaceID is not the only successful use of the tech. An example of using 3D depth sensing, 3D object scanning/modelling, skeletal mapping and VR:



That video was taken almost a year ago. Baby steps but, AFAIK, Apple didn't provide anything similar when they could have done. Rumours point to the tech moving forward with the Mate 30 Pro.

It is true that, in general, Android phones are trying to reduce notches to their minimum expression and passing on expensive biometrics where other solutions provide more than sufficient security for payments etc. I think the goal was to maximise screen to body ratios and that is what we are seeing.

We don’t deal with vaporware. If those become a true product and in Apple’s scale come back again !

It is a real product. The video was taken at the official presentation for the Mate 20 Pro last year. I didn't link to the full official presentation as it almost two hours long. That's why it's just someone filming from the audience.

What you don’t understand is in today’s tech world, selling companies is more  important than selling products. This is why vaporware exist. Blow a balloon with apparently novel but most probably tried tested and already failed brilliant idea, upload a few videos to YouTube, buy a few expo booths, and you don’t have to deliver anything more. There are shitloads of click-thirsty tech writers and TV reporters that would jump onto that and automatically inflate you startup company’s value to some satisfactory level. Then you sell the company and become vapor yourself grabbing all those angel investors’ money. Even Apple couldn’t save itself from such a scam, remember their sapphire adventure.

This is no longer your 1970s capitalism...

You are not addressing the points I made:

Face identification is widely used on Android even without 3D depth sensing.

FaceID is simply a biometric and easily substituted for other biometrics if you want to maximise screen to body ratio.

FaceID is not the only successful use of 3D depth sensing.

You veered off into a rant on other points.