macplusplus

elijahg said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

macplusplus said:

danvm said:

racerhomie3 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

StrangeDays said:

Johan42 said:

Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.

You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 

My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?

Same here buddy. My MacBook is from late 2008. It is 11 years old, running smoothly , and it does so looking 5 times better than your machine.

The difference is that the good looking machine is running an old OS X 10.11 while the ugly one is capable of running the latest version of Windows 10.  Following the original post about longest lifespan, the ugly one is ahead considering it's running a modern OS.  Still, both devices are to old for modern applications.  

Nonsense. The capabilities of a machine depends on the CPU. You cannot override CPU’s physical limitations with the OS, no matter how modern it is. Windows support of earlier machines is because those were crap in terms of security. This a just a burden on Microsoft, not progress.

Not quite. At a cost of speed, "physical limitations" of CPUs apart from speed can oft be "overridden" with software emulation. If the CPU is 64 bit, and it's running Windows 10, it can run pretty much all modern software, albeit much more slowly than a modern CPU. Oh, and it gets security updates. 

To increase your signal to noise ratio please go to ark.intel.com, find Intel Core Duo under Legacy Intel Processors, compare it to today’s 9th generation Intel. Then please tell us what capabilities can you implement via software emulation to make it run as 9th gen Intel !...

A Core Duo will always run as Core Duo regardless of the OS or whatever software emulation you implement. In most cases a legacy machine will run faster under its native OS, XP Vista or whatever, not to mention also the legacy driver support. Windows 10 forums are full of people screaming because of the lack of legacy driver support and reverting back to their legacy OS for that reason. Yes you get a modern OS and most probably better security but you lose the fingerprint reader or the sound card...

To decrease your ignorance level, please go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator .

You'll note I said 64-bit. Core Duos are not 64 bit. But in any case, it is possible for a 32-bit CPU to do 64-bit calculations, but they are much slower as they're done in software. Like I said, if an older CPU doesn't support an extension of x64 that a modern piece of software uses, the missing extension is emulated in software. It is much slower, as I said, but it allows modern software to run on older CPUs. If this wasn't the case, it would mean software would always have to be written for the lowest target CPU that the developer thinks may be used. Otherwise the software would crash as soon as an unsupported instruction was encountered. No developer would specifically target a 9th gen i9, as it would only be supported on a tiny subset of systems. 

Driver support is a different beast entirely, that's up to the manufacturer of the peripheral on a PC. If a manufacturer keeps the peripheral updated, even a 15 year old peripheral will run just fine in Win 10. Apple supplies all the drivers for Macs and could keep old drivers updated to ensure they worked on newer OSs, so your point is moot; the same issue would not pertain to Macs.

And to prove my point, the Church-Turing thesis corroborates exactly what I said above.

What is the point of “emulation” in this? We are not talking about the emulation of a few missing instructions among processors of a couple of generations old, we are talking about decade old architectural differences. You cannot emulate a higher architecture in a decade-old lower architecture, that is the opposite. Theoretically you can as an undergraduate homework, or you can emulate this and that, but the industry has yet to see a “i9 emulator” for Core Duos.

As IrineW said, the point is Windows 10 can run with almost all features on the 10 year old Core 2 Duo, but Apple generally refuses to offer software support for Macs older than 7 years. And as I said, which you seem to be struggling to understand, the point of emulation is that the hardware features in the later CPUs are emulated on older CPUs such that newer software can continue to run on the older hardware.

GeorgeBMac said:

kruegdude said:

elijahg said:

racerhomie3 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

StrangeDays said:

Johan42 said:

Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.

You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 

My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?

Same here buddy. My MacBook is from late 2008. It is 11 years old, running smoothly , and it does so looking 5 times better than your machine.

How well are all those security updates installing for you?

You’re touting Microsoft’s security updates? Really? They people that made possible a billion dollar virus scanning ecosystem possible? 

I think you missed the context of his remark:   In terms of lifespan, Apple cuts off updates after a certain point.  That doesn't happen with Windows.   I just got a notice that the Windows 7 on one of my desktops (a 1990's era Compaq D530 CMT) will come off of support (after 10 years) in January 2020.  But, it will be easy enough for me to upgrade to Windows 8.1 or maybe Windows10 and continue the support and security updates.   That would not be possible were it a Mac.

GeorgeBMac said:

macplusplus said:

GeorgeBMac said:

jcs2305 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

StrangeDays said:

Johan42 said:

Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.

You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 

My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?

I thought the OP said Apple devices, not laptops specifically when referring to the longest lifespan in the business. Most of the planned obsolescence claims I have seen refer to iPhones and not Apple,s other hardware. You have to admit more folks are using older Mac laptops than they are 12 year old Thinkpads. 

So yes a non Mac can have a long service life but it isn’t as likely in my opinion. My two macs at home are both late 2011 ( Mini & Air ) and they both ares still running strong. This is possible, but not typical for windows machines of the same age in my experience. Just my 2c ... 

Huh?   You compare a 2011 machine to a 2006 machine to say it's service life is as long?    Let's talk in another 5 years.

But, again, I am not trashing the Macs.   Merely contesting the statement that Macs have the longest service life of all.  They do if you compare them to crappy HPs, but not other, high end, well made machines.

A look at the second hand markets will disprove you. It is well known that the Macs have better second hand value because they last longer. A PC too may last even longer than a Mac provided that you can live with continuous DIY tinkering. At these fringe cases the issue becomes more of a sentimental one than a technical one. We cannot come to a conclusion by continuously autopsying dead models, we just have to respect people’s sentimental ties with their legacy investments. Meanwhile I have a gut feeling that the trend is towards a shortened lifecycle regardless of the model or brand: as long as the processors become more powerful the Heat emerges everywhere and controlling the heat becomes the first and foremost engineering task. “Cold” devices are the mainstream practical solution (smartphones, tablets) and for “hot” devices designing to dismiss the heat first (thinner, lighter) is the starting point in this war against Physics.

Yes, you are correct.   Macs do have higher resale values than PCs -- even high end ones like Thinkpads.
But, that is not due to the hardware.   It is due to OS, software and Apple Ecosystem (which is the main reason why Macs cost more to begin with).   But, that doesn't mean that the hardware is any better or lasts any longer -- and particularly with Apple's increasing move to non-repairable & non-upgreadeable hardware that is more true than ever. 

But, even with the Apple OS, what happens when Apple no longer supports it  And, Apple drops support long before Microsoft does and, even if they were the same, you can almost always upgrade the Microsoft OS to the latest version.  The truth is:   A "T series" Thinkpad is simply more sturdy, more easily repaired if needed and more easily upgraded (both hardware and software wise) than any Mac (particularly the newer ones) and that provides them with the potential for longer life.

Added:   As for heat:   The Lenovo "T Series" Thinkpads have robust, well designed cooling -- unlike the thin, light minimalist MacBooks.   So, heat is much less of an issue.

GeorgeBMac said:

jcs2305 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

StrangeDays said:

Johan42 said:

Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.

You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 

My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?

I thought the OP said Apple devices, not laptops specifically when referring to the longest lifespan in the business. Most of the planned obsolescence claims I have seen refer to iPhones and not Apple,s other hardware. You have to admit more folks are using older Mac laptops than they are 12 year old Thinkpads. 

So yes a non Mac can have a long service life but it isn’t as likely in my opinion. My two macs at home are both late 2011 ( Mini & Air ) and they both ares still running strong. This is possible, but not typical for windows machines of the same age in my experience. Just my 2c ... 

Huh?   You compare a 2011 machine to a 2006 machine to say it's service life is as long?    Let's talk in another 5 years.

But, again, I am not trashing the Macs.   Merely contesting the statement that Macs have the longest service life of all.  They do if you compare them to crappy HPs, but not other, high end, well made machines.

IreneW said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

macplusplus said:

elijahg said:

macplusplus said:

danvm said:

racerhomie3 said:

GeorgeBMac said:

StrangeDays said:

Johan42 said:

Diminishing returns is here. Apple’s planned obsolescence as well. Who will prevail? The customer who has no sense will.

You’re high. Apple devices have the longest lifespan in the business — both in official support terms (iOS), and in real world useful lifespan. My primary desktop is a 2011 iMac. I have an iphone 4s that was used as a primary device by a family member until a year or two ago and now is a backup device. What other brand has the same support and lifespan longevity? 

My Lenovo Thinkpad T60P laptop is over 12 years old and runs like it was new -- but with a modern OS and I'm thinking swapping its main harddrive for an SSD.  How does Apple have the "longest lifespan" ?

Same here buddy. My MacBook is from late 2008. It is 11 years old, running smoothly , and it does so looking 5 times better than your machine.

The difference is that the good looking machine is running an old OS X 10.11 while the ugly one is capable of running the latest version of Windows 10.  Following the original post about longest lifespan, the ugly one is ahead considering it's running a modern OS.  Still, both devices are to old for modern applications.  

Nonsense. The capabilities of a machine depends on the CPU. You cannot override CPU’s physical limitations with the OS, no matter how modern it is. Windows support of earlier machines is because those were crap in terms of security. This a just a burden on Microsoft, not progress.

Not quite. At a cost of speed, "physical limitations" of CPUs apart from speed can oft be "overridden" with software emulation. If the CPU is 64 bit, and it's running Windows 10, it can run pretty much all modern software, albeit much more slowly than a modern CPU. Oh, and it gets security updates. 

To increase your signal to noise ratio please go to ark.intel.com, find Intel Core Duo under Legacy Intel Processors, compare it to today’s 9th generation Intel. Then please tell us what capabilities can you implement via software emulation to make it run as 9th gen Intel !...

A Core Duo will always run as Core Duo regardless of the OS or whatever software emulation you implement. In most cases a legacy machine will run faster under its native OS, XP Vista or whatever, not to mention also the legacy driver support. Windows 10 forums are full of people screaming because of the lack of legacy driver support and reverting back to their legacy OS for that reason. Yes you get a modern OS and most probably better security but you lose the fingerprint reader or the sound card...

To decrease your ignorance level, please go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulator .

You'll note I said 64-bit. Core Duos are not 64 bit. But in any case, it is possible for a 32-bit CPU to do 64-bit calculations, but they are much slower as they're done in software. Like I said, if an older CPU doesn't support an extension of x64 that a modern piece of software uses, the missing extension is emulated in software. It is much slower, as I said, but it allows modern software to run on older CPUs. If this wasn't the case, it would mean software would always have to be written for the lowest target CPU that the developer thinks may be used. Otherwise the software would crash as soon as an unsupported instruction was encountered. No developer would specifically target a 9th gen i9, as it would only be supported on a tiny subset of systems. 

Driver support is a different beast entirely, that's up to the manufacturer of the peripheral on a PC. If a manufacturer keeps the peripheral updated, even a 15 year old peripheral will run just fine in Win 10. Apple supplies all the drivers for Macs and could keep old drivers updated to ensure they worked on newer OSs, so your point is moot; the same issue would not pertain to Macs.

And to prove my point, the Church-Turing thesis corroborates exactly what I said above.

What is the point of “emulation” in this? We are not talking about the emulation of a few missing instructions among processors of a couple of generations old, we are talking about decade old architectural differences. You cannot emulate a higher architecture in a decade-old lower architecture, that is the opposite. Theoretically you can as an undergraduate homework, or you can emulate this and that, but the industry has yet to see a “i9 emulator” for Core Duos.

But, what is your point? Windows 10 runs on these old processors, obviously not as fast and smooth as on a modern CPU, but it works and get regular updates.