linuxplatform

ericthehalfbee said:

OutdoorAppDeveloper said:

About time. They are our devices, we should be able to run whatever we want on them including a competing app store. If Apple thinks 30% is fair then it can try competing with app stores where the cut is 10% and see how well it does. What if a $10 app cost only $8 on another app store? How many customers would stick with Apple then?

I bet all of them will stick with Apple.

Privacy, security, vetted Apps, single entity to trust your credit card to...these are all easily worth a couple dollars.

Apps are dirt cheap. The average iOS user spends less than $10 a month on Apps. Saving $2 for increased risk of malware or other issues is not enough to make people switch.

And that’s assuming prices are actually cheaper. More likely they charge the same price and pocket the extra money for themselves.

You do realize that "sticking with Apple" and "playing your favourite video game" are two different things right? You can "stick with Apple" while playing Fortnite on a Nintendo Switch. Or by buying a $100 Android phone or tablet and playing Fortnite - and Stadia, xCloud and GeForce Now - on it. That is in fact what nearly all the Fortnite fans on iOS are going to do ... play Fortnite on another platform while communicating with their friends via iMessage.

radarthekat said:

DAalseth said:

I don't play Fortnight but I agree with Epic
I've never agreed with Apple claiming a portion of all sales from an app even if those sales don't go through the AppStore.
Some have compared it to having rules for stocking things in your own store.
That's not it
Some have said that Epic and others are trying to profit while not paying for the store.
Not right either
Look at it this way. I have a store. You want to sell something, a computer let's say, in my store. I can and should get a cut of the price for my trouble of hosting your product That's fair.
But should I then demand a cut of everything else that is bought with that computer? I sell a Dell computer so anything purchased from Dell on that computer has to pay a toll back to me even if you're a thousand miles away from my store? Of course not, that would be absurd. 
Yet Apple is demanding a slice of everything bought on Amazon Prime, and Kindle, and all in game purchases, and more, even if those transactions have nothing to do and go nowhere near Apple's store. 
That has never felt right to me. 
Apple should get a cute of sales in their store.
But that should be the end of it. 
Oh and don't go around saying if they don't like it they can go elsewhere, to Android for example. Apple has the only store where developers make significant money. The profits from the android store is a fraction. 
It's like saying if you don't want to pay my forever cut on sales you can go to the other store in the poor section of town where nobody can afford your stuff. 
Not really a choice for most developers.
It's this kind of behavior that's getting Apple in trouble with antitrust hawks. 

Your argument falls down.  It’s not about poor android customers.  It’s about people who can afford an Apple phone.  Those people, who presumably have the money to buy Apple products and services and software, can take their Apple iPhone money and instead buy an Android phone.  Nothing stopping them.  They aren’t poor, by your own argument.  There’s a clear choice for Epic, sell on Android’s app stores and market to everyone, including those who would buy iPhones, that people should buy an Android phone to play Epic games.  

First off, Android device owners aren't "poor" in North America, western Europe or Asia. Instead, it is that we would rather spend $250 on a phone to play Fortnite with instead of $699. And if we are going to spend $699 - or actually twice that much for a Samsung flagship - we are going to want the latest hardware and software features and tons more freedom to use our devices the way that we want them to in return for that money. 

Second, there is absolutely, positively no evidence that Fortnite is making a fraction of money on Android that it is on iOS. The primary difference in revenue between Google Play and the App Store is that the App Store operates in China and Google Play doesn't. If you were to add the Google Play revenue to the revenue of the top 10 Chinese app stores, then the combination of Google Play+Chinese app stores would equal that of the App Store. Meaning that were Google Play operating in China, its revenues would equal or exceed that of the App Store. 

Third - I have said this many a time and I have no idea why it keeps getting ignored - there is no reason for iOS device owners to "go" anywhere. Want to play Fortnite, Stadia or GeForce Now? Buy an Amazon Kindle tablet - currently selling for as little as $60 - and sideload away. Or if you want to make things a bit easier on yourself ... buy a Samsung Galaxy Tab A for about $150 and download both xCloud and Fortnite from the Galaxy Store. (I just downloaded Microsoft's Forza driving video game from the Galaxy Store a couple of days ago. It. Works. The. Same. Way.) Just tell yourself that it is an Android tablet (which, by the way, all the Nintendo Switch is ... a CHEAPER VERSION of the Nvidia Shield K1 Android tablet - including the Vulkan graphics stack and Nvidia graphics drivers - running the Nintendo 3DS operating system) and game away. Use your iPhones, iPads, Apple Watches, Apple TVs and Macs for everything else. It isn't hard and it is what every other rational person on the planet does.

flydog said:

tundraboy said:

mark fearing said:

The complaint alleges that Apple has become a "behemoth seeking to control markets, block competition and stifle innovation," and claims that the company's size and reach "far exceeds that of any technology monopolist in history."

A behemoth with how much of the mobile phone market exactly? Of the desktop market? Of the laptop market? Epic just wants free access to customers.  This is a dead suit. Every reseller/store pays a wholesale price. And in grocery stores you also pay a shelving fee. If I won't pay that Safeway won't carry my product. So good luck here...

Yes.  It is amazing how these companies make the claim that Apple is monopolizing the market for Apple products.  Even more amazing that some politicians are swallowing this line.  Maybe they should turn their attention to Sony for monopolizing the market for Sony game consoles.  Or Merceds Benz for their lock on the market for Mercedes Benz cars.  Ridiculously stupid thinking.

The Apple App Store is a subordinate market.  It exists solely because of the iPhone and iPad.  If Apple has a monopoly in the smartphone and tablet market, then sure, Epic has a case because that is the only way consumers can buy and play their games.  But with Android out there, Epic cannot claim that Apple is shutting them out of the market.  If they must sue someone, maybe they should sue Google and the Android phone manufacturers for putting out such lousy product that nobody wants to play Fortnite through their platform.  But that's not true either because a lot of Android phone owners play Fortnite.

Exactly.  One could just as well argue that Epic should allow other game developers to sell games on the Epic store, and do so for free.  But of course Epic will not allow that because it's their store.  And they would be right in doing so because their store is not an industry within the meaning of antitrust law. 

1. Epic DOES allow other developers to sell their games in the Epic store.
2. While Epic doesn't do so "for free" - and claims that they want to be in the App Store "for free" are simply false - they charge much less and offer much better terms than Steam, Origin, EA and the other major console stores. The same rhetoric they are aiming at Apple now, they aimed at Steam a few years ago. So yeah, please endeavour to keep your ripostes true, OK? And again, I say this as someone who is generally sympathetic to Apple on this.

Beats said:

Even if Apple had a monopoly Epic still has no case. Of course anti-Apple Americans will try to screw Apple anyway.

iKnockoffs are having a hard time running Fortnite and Epic knows this. They're stupid for biting the hand that feeds them. I think Apple needs to go on a full on assault on anyone who tries screwing them over.

Man, nothing you said here was true.
Yes, Mercedes-Benz exclusively manufactures and sells Mercedes-Benz cars. But I can buy any parts for that car from anywhere. I can put any gas in that car that I want. I can replace the Mercedes stereo and infotainment system in that car with another one. If I want to replace the locks and alarm system, I can get a third party to do so. If I want to buy my own insurance instead of the Mercedez-Benz warranty, I can. If I want another financier instead of Mercedes-Benz, I can. This means that after I buy - and certainly after I pay off - my Mercedez-Benz, I have 100% control over it. This IS NOT the case with iPhones, iPads, Apple TVs and Apple Watches. This IS, however, the case with macOS devices. So even from the perspective of someone who is sympathetic to Apple's argument - which I am - THIS IS A HORRIBLE EXAMPLE SO STOP USING IT.

Second, Android phones ARE NOT HAVING A HARD TIME RUNNING FORTNITE. If Android games couldn't run Fortnite - which isn't even a particularly demanding mobile game - then why on earth would Android have such large market share? Even in wealthy, affluent countries like America, Canada and western Europe? Why on earth would anyone pay $1300 for a Samsung Galaxy Note 20 Ultra or $2000 for a Samsung Galaxy Z Flip if it couldn't run Fortnite? Let me put it another way ... why would Android gaming be an industry with TENS OF BILLIONS IN ANNUAL REVENUE if the devices couldn't run the games? Who is making all these games for devices that can't run them? Who is buying all these games that their devices can't run?

Third, Epic IS NOT biting the hand that feeds it. Fortnite runs on PC (where Epic Games has a long-running battle with Steam) and macOS. Fortnite runs on Playstation. Fortnite runs on Nintendo Switch. Fortnite runs on XBox. AND FORTNITE RUNS ON ANDROID. So take away iOS AND FORTNITE IS STILL ONE OF THE BIGGEST, MOST LUCRATIVE AND SUCCESSFUL VIDEO GAMES IN HISTORY. Epic is doing this PRECISELY BECAUSE A) Apple platforms ARE NOT the reason for their success and they do not rely on Apple as a critical revenue stream. The software companies that DO rely on the App Store are infamous for saying "how high?" whenever Apple says jump, and no matter how much they resent Apple for it they keep quiet about it because were Apple to "review" their app for 30 days (for example) that would wreck them financially. But Epic knows that they will be filthy rich even if they are never on Apple hardware again. They know that the actual fans of this game who spend tons of money on IAPs will simply play it on another platform. They will play it on PC or on a console when at home. On the go, they will just buy a Nintendo Switch/Switch Lite or get a cheap Android device and use their iPhone for tethering their mobile data to it. 

Man, do you have absolutely no shame at all saying things that are so thoroughly, completely untrue?

Except that his experiences are corroborated by tons of other developers as well as by independent studies frequently reported in the media. Meanwhile all the other side has Apple public relations missives happily disseminated by all the journalism and creative writing grads in the media who love Apple products and know nothing about the business world and know nothing about anything in tech that doesn't appear on their iPhone, iPad or iMac as an app or service.

.ericthehalfbee said:

cropr said:

mjtomlin said:

"Thousands of apps on the App Store approved by Apple accept direct payments, including commonly used apps like Amazon, Grubhub, Nike SNKRS, Best Buy, DoorDash, Fandango, McDonald's, Uber, Lyft, and StubHub. We think all developers should be free to support direct payments in all apps."

Is that what you think? Haha. These types of developers are nothing more than parasites.

Look, I get it and think Apple needs to do something about how the App Store is run, but these developers who want what amounts to a free ride are just being greedy and stupid. It is App Store revenue that allows Apple to give away free OS upgrades, which in turn allows Apple to push the platform (and developers) forward.

Maybe Apple should create tiered fees for their Developer Program?
$99/year to develop apps sold through the App Store - Apple gets their 30% cut. Basically the same as it is now.
$999,999/year to develop apps sold via outside payment system - Apple gets nothing extra.

Some of these larger developers could easily cover a million a year. And smaller developers can still start with a hundred dollar fee and if/when their app takes off, switch to the higher tier.

I am an app developer, and you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about the business of apps.  You are blinded completely by the few big ones like Supercell (Clash of Clans, ...).  If Apple would $1M for to develop, there would no App store, Only major companies like Google, Facebook, ... would be willing to invest.   Statistics show that 99% of the apps are loss making.  The big profits are made by a few very profitable app companies.

Just 3 examples of the real app business world:

1. Of the 11 apps that I put on the App Store, 7 are loss making, 2 are about break even and 1 is making a nice profit.  This last app is profitable because it is multi-platform and because I can avoid the 30% Apple tax by charging the customer directly. 
   
2. If I would only make a iOS version of my apps, all my apps would be loss making.   Developing an app simultaneously for iOS, Android and Web costs roughly 40% more than making it for iOS only, but the revenues are more than double. So the "fact" that Apple is offering me the market I was dreaming of, is a fake fact
   
3. One of my colleague app business owners had spent 40.000 Euro in developing a new app, when Apple announced a change in its app developing guidelines.  His app could no longer pass the approval and he went broke 3 months later.   This is the business reality that you fail to understand.

Like in any other business, an app business owner want to cut costs wherever possible.   This has nothing to do with greediness or stupidity but with normal business practice.

I don't mind to pay a  commission to any business partner as long as that partner provides the right value for the commission.  Like all developers have discovered, the 30% cut Apple is imposing, does not provide the value it promises.    A survey among my paying customers revealed that none of them discovered the apps via the App Store, they did it via the direct marketing campaign I launch and paid.     Which basically means that Apple has just become a secure payment processor.  The market price of a secure payment processor is 2.7% and not 30%.   No wonder app developers try to avoid the Apple tax,

.

Nobody gives a damn about your repeated claims of being a developer while spewing all sorts of bullshit other developers know is false.