mr. h

just cruisin said:

But anyway, you missed the point.

People hate ads.  People hate pop ups more.  People really, really hate pop ups that know too much about them. 

Apple, don’t make people hate you.

Is it you who's missed the point? The article is concerning a method that allows the user to choose whether or not they receive personalised ads. So what's the problem here? Don't like personalised ads? Turn them off! Simple.

Detnator said:

mr. h said:

Let’s go beyond expressing personal opinions, and look past just your own wants. Considering your wants and everyone else’s, what should Apple actually do?  What is an actual solution to this issue that will give everyone what they want without compromise, or if not that then give the vast majority what’s most useful with the least compromise to everyone else.  Oared we just ranting about our own personal preferences (fine if that’s what it is and we’re honest about it) Or is a sensible conversation about real solutions possible? 

My suggestions are not considering only "what I want" and "what I need". I never use SD cards for example, but recognise there are enough people who do, to warrant a built-in slot in the MBP. You think I'm the only person in the world who needs to be able to connect to third-party projectors or move a file onto someone else's memory stick? I would suggest that rather than me having the problem of being self-absorbed, it is you. Four USB-C ports are fine for you, and you are seemingly incapable of imagining how irritating it is to have to use dongles etc. all the time, when the functionality could just be built-in to the laptop.

I think your arguments with regards to weight, cost, and space compromises for additional ports are all spurious. When you put the ports in an external hub, there is an enormous weight and space overhead for the enclosure etc. that just isn't applicable when the ports are built-in. Further, have you seen how much Apple have been able to shrink the motherboards for Apple Silicon-based Macs relative to the Intel versions? This would easily compensate for the very minimal additional space that the ports would take up. As for cost - Apple's margins are absolutely enormous already, and have widened even further with the introduction of Apple Silicon. They can easily add these ports without increasing the cost of the laptop.

My proposal - four thunderbolt USB-C ports, one USB-A port, one SD slot, one full-size HDMI, and one MagSafe charging port would:

Not make the laptop any bigger
Not make the laptop any heavier
Not make the laptop any more expensive (for the end user - it might reduce Apple's margin by a fraction of a %)
Have a negligible (possibly immeasurable) impact on battery life
Still give you the four ports you want

So, my solution has a significantly lower impact on the utility and convenience of the MBP for you, than visa-versa, hence it is a better solution.

An alternative that I rather like is what the Framework laptop is doing, where the I/O is done via removable USB-C modules, including a simple USB-C passthrough (https://frame.work/laptop - scroll down to see the modules). So, you could have e.g. six slots, and then whatever mix of USB-C passthrough, HDMI, USB-A, etc., that you want. The issue here though is that this would have a bigger impact on Apple's margins, and does have a non-negligible impact on weight and space consumed. I'm not sure Apple could do this without making the laptop thicker and I'd rather they didn't do that.

I appreciate that your response is well considered, it seems. Sadly, your easy dismissal of my arguments seems to have entirely missed some of the actual points. In doing so, you’ve indirectly helped make the point I’m trying to make. 

Ok… so… 

You’ve added four additional ports - each single purpose only, and at least one being relatively large (an HDMI port is near 3x the size of a USB-C port). Now the thing has 8 total ports and takes the space of the equivalent of 10 or more USB-C ports. All of that is not an insignificant increase in size/space, and most certainly adds some weight. You can’t just dismiss that. 

The “Apple should just decrease their margin” argument doesn’t fly. Aside from the fact that they’ve been very clear about not compromising their margins (and why should they), especially when they’re not having any trouble selling these things, even if they can do that to offset adding extra ports — or extra anything — then they can do it without adding extra ports and thus make the device cheaper without the added cost of the extra ports. Either way you can’t just dismiss the cost of extra ports. Either way, all else being equal, extra ports adds cost. 

The smaller motherboards is great. It means more of other things, that more ports compromises. Battery life for example. So again, either way, more ports compromises something, and you can’t just dismiss that. 

If anyone argues it’s ok to add weight and size internally for more ports then I argue it’s ok - and better - to add other things to the insides that can’t be added externally (more battery, more cooling, more processing, and if nothing else, absolutely more GPU - something laptops sorely lack while being pretty close to desktops in everything else). Then let those small things that can be added externally, while still carried around (more ports, not an eGPU for example) be added externally, especially when it is virtually impossible to reach agreement on what those ports should be. And that’s the point of TB only. 

None of that is to say your arguments for your proposed choice of extra ports is invalid, only that your path to getting there fails to adequately address the cost, plus my main point: ok, your configuration is a good selection but still falls short of meeting all needs. Eg. If given the choice, plenty of people would much rather have Ethernet built in and never go near an HDMI projector. You might argue that your selection is a reasonable selection and close enough to most people’s needs. To that I say 4xTB only, or even 6x, (and allowing back in whatever was compromised for the extra ports) is closer. You simply can’t just keep dismissing whatever has to be displaced to add the extra ports. 

All that said… 

You think I'm the only person in the world who needs to be able to connect to third-party projectors or move a file onto someone else's memory stick? I would suggest that rather than me having the problem of being self-absorbed, it is you. Four USB-C ports are fine for you, and you are seemingly incapable of imagining how irritating it is to have to use dongles etc. all the time, when the functionality could just be built-in to the laptop.

… this part is way off base. Firstly my “self absorbed” comment wasn’t directed at you at all and was a comment on a certain other individual’s approach not their points. Secondly, I never said anything else of what you’re saying I said there.  Of course I can imagine the irritation for people who need these ports.  

Where we disagree is what the solution is. Particularly, where these ports should be placed and why. And THIS is my point, not any of what you just said I’m saying. 

I think those ports should be optional (and therefore external) because enough people don’t want to carry any of them around and enough of those who do use them only use them at desks etc. where a powered hub connects everything at once. 

The remaining are the people who do genuinely:
(a) need one or more of HDMI, SD, USB-A, Ethernet, DP, mag-safe, and probably other things,
(b) away from the desk,
(c) often enough
(d) more often than any of us need other things like more GPU or battery life.
That group of people is not zero, obviously, but it’s a pretty specific set of criteria for someone to meet to be in it, such that it’s a relatively small group, even more so if we consider Apple’s target market.

And there… again you can’t just keep dismissing the compromises for everyone outside that group, to meet the needs inside that group, again especially when even those in that group will disagree on what should be included vs not.

And all the more so when that group still has perfectly reasonable options that don’t have to involve “dongle hell”. Yes those options are a compromise for those people but they’re less of a compromise than the alternative compromises will be for the rest of us. 

As much as I appreciate the thought you seem to have put into your reply, when you continue throwing phrases like “dongle hell” around (when there are plenty of small multi-purpose hubs that completely solve that problem) and continue insisting that adding these extra ports internally won’t increase the cost, or require displacing anything else of importance… suggests to me you’re clutching at straws a little. It appears you’re not really hearing the other side, and that you have little concept of the engineering required for these things. That part is disappointing. 

All that said, I really was hoping someone would bring up the idea of something like the framework laptop solution. So thank you for that. I actually think (something like) that is the way to go, and I’d personally love Apple to pursue something like that (though hopefully they can do it better).  

Agreed that the extra size and weight is not insignificant in framework’s solution. A better solution would be: say the 16”MBP comes with three TB ports on each side, but in a space that’s recessed, and large enough to slot in one of any number of combo modules. Instead of a module for each port, it’s a module for the combination of all three ports on one side — a module that contains three USB-C TB4 input plugs, and 2, 3, or more ports, any combination of whatever can fit that you want (including simply 3x TB4 pass through), output. A smaller (because much fewer output ports) version of something like this: https://www.hypershop.com/collections/usb-c-hubs-for-macbook/products/hyperdrive-net-6-in-2-hub-for-usb-c-macbook-pro-2016-2017-2018  that isn’t attached on the side, but rather slotted into a recess. 

Actually, I’d be perfectly happy if the TB4 pass through option was nothing but three holes to pass the ridiculously long and high-leverage-for-damage TB3/4 cable plug through to the internal port. 

That’s a solution that would require displacing less than ADDING more ports in addition to the TB complement, but for an infinitely flexible solution that would provide everyone exactly whatever combination suits them (even in different situations) plus solves the instability problem in my last paragraph. In my head that’s minimal compromise for maximum return for everyone. 

Just one thought: perhaps in addition to (or even instead of) all arguing about this 😉 we could all write to tcook@apple.com to ask for this. 

Thanks for taking the time to construct this well-argued post. Clearly the main area of disagreement between us is the degree of impact that adding one USB-A, one full-size HDMI, one SD card slot, and one MagSafe charging port would have on the laptop. I am well aware of the engineering issues (I have a PhD in electronic engineering) and have studied enough laptop internals to come to my conclusion that Apple could add these with extremely minimal compromise vis-as-vis battery life and GPU power. Unfortunately, this will remain an issue that we simply cannot resolve without Apple engineering the damn thing and comparing one versus the other - I think we just have to agree to disagree.

Anyway, I'm delighted that you are a fan of the modular idea. Given Apple's resources you would have thought they'd be able to do it right. Apparently there are ex-Apple engineers working at Framework. I think the best we can hope for is for Framework to be super successful and for other manufacturers to start doing the same thing, but sadly I doubt it's going to happen as I think there aren't enough consumers that actually care enough about the concept.

Let’s go beyond expressing personal opinions, and look past just your own wants. Considering your wants and everyone else’s, what should Apple actually do?  What is an actual solution to this issue that will give everyone what they want without compromise, or if not that then give the vast majority what’s most useful with the least compromise to everyone else.  Oared we just ranting about our own personal preferences (fine if that’s what it is and we’re honest about it) Or is a sensible conversation about real solutions possible? 

My suggestions are not considering only "what I want" and "what I need". I never use SD cards for example, but recognise there are enough people who do, to warrant a built-in slot in the MBP. You think I'm the only person in the world who needs to be able to connect to third-party projectors or move a file onto someone else's memory stick? I would suggest that rather than me having the problem of being self-absorbed, it is you. Four USB-C ports are fine for you, and you are seemingly incapable of imagining how irritating it is to have to use dongles etc. all the time, when the functionality could just be built-in to the laptop.

I think your arguments with regards to weight, cost, and space compromises for additional ports are all spurious. When you put the ports in an external hub, there is an enormous weight and space overhead for the enclosure etc. that just isn't applicable when the ports are built-in. Further, have you seen how much Apple have been able to shrink the motherboards for Apple Silicon-based Macs relative to the Intel versions? This would easily compensate for the very minimal additional space that the ports would take up. As for cost - Apple's margins are absolutely enormous already, and have widened even further with the introduction of Apple Silicon. They can easily add these ports without increasing the cost of the laptop.

My proposal - four thunderbolt USB-C ports, one USB-A port, one SD slot, one full-size HDMI, and one MagSafe charging port would:

Not make the laptop any bigger
Not make the laptop any heavier
Not make the laptop any more expensive (for the end user - it might reduce Apple's margin by a fraction of a %)
Have a negligible (possibly immeasurable) impact on battery life
Still give you the four ports you want

So, my solution has a significantly lower impact on the utility and convenience of the MBP for you, than visa-versa, hence it is a better solution.

An alternative that I rather like is what the Framework laptop is doing, where the I/O is done via removable USB-C modules, including a simple USB-C passthrough (https://frame.work/laptop - scroll down to see the modules). So, you could have e.g. six slots, and then whatever mix of USB-C passthrough, HDMI, USB-A, etc., that you want. The issue here though is that this would have a bigger impact on Apple's margins, and does have a non-negligible impact on weight and space consumed. I'm not sure Apple could do this without making the laptop thicker and I'd rather they didn't do that.

AppleInsider said:

Reports suggest that the iPhone 12 mini isn't doing as well as Apple's larger devices, and the company may have plans to phase out the model in the coming years.

I think Apple made a mistake with the iPhone 12 mini - it's not small enough! You say the iPhone 4 is "fairly small by today's standards" - no, it's very small by today's standards; considerably smaller than the iPhone 12 mini. I have a 12 mini and I still can't fully use it one-handed without reachability turned on. If it was the size of an iPhone 4 (but screen was full-face, so a larger screen than the iPhone 4) that would be perfect.

williamlondon said:

mr. h said:

thedba said:

if that was the computing Nirvana, that many think it is, then Apple would’ve been calling it quits on iPadOS by now

No. Because iPadOS is an excellent tablet OS. So if you want to use the iPad as a tablet, iPadOS is better than macOS. I have a surface pro 4 and wish I could replace it with an Apple product, but I can't. If Apple allowed you to boot macOS on an iPad, I'd buy an iPad Pro immediately.

Yeah, because the most success Apple can achieve is by copying Microsoft.

Apple has an extensive history of not being first to market with a particular idea, but rather, being first to market with a specific idea implementation that doesn't suck.

Really, I don't get the resistance to this idea. How does it harm anyone to offer the option of booting an iPad into macOS?