I have a Bumper and my iPhone 4 is working beautifully. My wife did not want a Bumper (she's waiting for others to ship) and she hasn't had any problems in casual use. Personally, I like the feel of the iPhone better with the Bumper than without. I'll be watching what Vaja Cases produces. The case I got from them for my 3G was the best, most striking case I've ever had.
Changing the way bars are displayed does not fix the antenna problem, it only changes the way signal strength is being reported by the phone. There is no software fix for this.
Yeah, but if you read the articles you'll find that in many cases the bars disappear but the signal actually doesn't. Also almost the whole point of what the first expert was saying was that the bar display is basically made up and can at times have no relation at all to whether the call is going to be dropped.
The problem is that people believe reception is a problem on the phone even though all objective tests say that reception is overall *better* on the iPhone 4 than on any other phone or any previous iPhone. In some cases, this perception of poor reception is accurate, in other cases, not.
It's a hardware/software/firmware problem and a software/firmware fix can solve a large part of it even though underlying problems created by the design of the product may remain for a few.
What has me concerned is that this is going to turn into Apple's Toyota moment.
Reports started to surface that there were problems with Toyota's automobiles.
Toyota said, dismissively, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with our cars.
There were a few instances of unintended acceleration and again Toyota says not our fault.
Unfortunately for Toyota the media latched onto the story and Toyota ends up with a black eye.
Most, but not all, of the unintended accidents were driver error. A few of them were a floor mat problem or a sticky gas pedal.
I think Toyotas mistake was that they appeared arrogant and that they didn't care about their customers safety. If they would have responded quicker and seemed a little more sympathetic they could have kept the publics trust.
I think that Apple's fetish for being secretive and their aloof attitude is going to come back to haunt them. Even though it looks like the phone is working as designed by Apple there are enough people ignorant of the whole story that I think this issue is going to continue to get bad press. When a company as successful as Apple seemingly makes a mistake the press and pundits will pile on them big time. Its part of human nature.
Schadenfreude.
Derived from the German words for harm and pleasure, it means the joy we sometimes cannot help but experience when we hear about another's misfortune.
And Apple suggestion to improve reception people use a case or better yet...buy a Apple bumper is truly a fail.
Bigdaddyp-
There is a huge PR difference between people dying and phone calls being dropped. This will NEVER turn into a Toyota moment. The drama of the outcome is the missing ingredient.
Having said that, I agree with your premise (i.e. that Apple's attitude on this could tarnish their reputation). I am not a big fan of the "don't hold it that way" answer. I'm not so much against the suggestion that people get a bumper. It will eventually save them some roughed up glass edges (at a minimum) and/or dinged-up metal sides.
I'd just like to clarify -- when I said it was a "lousy phone" I mean "a lousy device for making phone calls on", rather than "a lousy smartphone". Apart from the proximity sensor issues and these signal problems I'm ecstatic with my iPhone 4. Furthermore, the proximity sensor is (personally) probably more annoying than the signal problems and I have a hunch it will be fixed in a software update (I think it's a calibration problem).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
How do you explain Anand Shimpi's findings on the Nexus, when you are quoted as saying no other phones exhibit this behaviour?
Anand shows a drop of 10.7dB when held in the bare hand and 7.7dB when held in a case. I don't think the difference is significant; it's very slight compared to the 12.6dB difference between the iPhone 4 figures. Note that dB is a log scale unit, so these numbers actually reflect a small and quite large difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Anand at least made an attempt to measure things in a semi-controlled environment. and to implement controls. Gaywood did neither.
Ouch. I did what I could with the tools that I had, and (in my defence) I was upfront that my testing was limited and what those limits were.
Quote:
Note also, that Anand's conclusions were that the iPhone 4, even with its minor glitches was a considerably better phone than the iPhone 3GS - or any other phone on the market. And that was after a wide range of comparisons, not just Gaywood's one uncontrolled experiment.
Oh, they've definitely done a much better test than I have -- I have updated my original post to reflect that, and posted again since with a link to Anand's site.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Huber
Whether others were involved in checking their work or if they worked alone. And I am troubled by the fact that Mr. Gaywood made a post here, the tone of which was something other than what I would expect of a serious researcher--a little starstruck and defensive it seemed to me.
Heh, dunno about defensive, but definitely starstruck. This doesn't happen to me a lot. My blog has had 10,000 hits in the last 24 hours; compared to about 3,000 for the whole of 2010 so far.
I worked alone, and no-one checked my findings. This blog post wouldn't pass a peer review process in a million years. And yet, I believe it was more rigorous than anything I'd read on the web until Anand's post today -- which is not intended to suggest I'm clever, so much as, why did no-one else try and do the really very basic things I did? In any event, I was honest about what I did and how I built my conclusions. That's how tyou do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
Actually not. If you read closely, a large part of what the first expert said (and no offence to Richard Gaywood but he says in his own blog that he is actually *not* an antenna expert so the first expert is the one to really listen to)
No offence taken, you are correct to do so.
Quote:
So while the ultimate fix might be in the manufacturing, there is a fix for the firmware or software that might alleviate the problem a great deal. By changing the algorithm that determines the bars, they can hopefully fine tune it so that a large part of the problem goes away.
I don't think that's true. I would say that what Anand is saying is: part of this is a real problem, and part of it is a perceived problem that it worse than it is because the calibration of the bars is a little odd (with that very broad range of signal strengths mapped to five bars). Recalibration will make the problem look less odd, but it won't change the attenuation Anandtech measured one whit.
Now, as I say at the end of my piece, if the iPhone 4's "ungripped" reception is really good, the attenuation matters a lot less; basically, even when you're holding it, you still come out ahead. Anandtech have shown that to be partly the case. Based on that, they are saying this isn't a smaller issue than it might appear, and I am inclined to agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
Grow up.
I get that a lot. Even from Microsoft. It stopped bothering me a long time ago though; about a week after I started school in fact
Three Apple job postings for iPhone / iPad antenna engineers to "Define and implement antenna system architecture to optimize the radiation performance for wireless portable devices." All three were posted on June 23rd, the same day that we started seeing widespread reporting of the left-handed reception issues. Coincidence?
My daughter met two Apple engineers while vacationing in Hawaii a few weeks ago. They said when Apple was developing Aperture, Jobs was so displeased with the lack of progress, he walked in and told everyone to collect their things and leave, you're fired!
For what it is worth, you are the first person here to identify themselves as actually having an iPhone 4. Which is already telling.
What is "telling" is that you claim someone reporting no issues with the iPhone 4 to be the only person giving a hands-on review. Clearly you're adopting the classic head-in-sand approach to the numerous other reports on Appleinsider (and elsewhere) from owners of the iPhone 4 who ARE having problems.
I can only hope Apple is not taking the same approach as you (though Jobs and Apple's initial responses were very disconcerting).
Has anyone bothered to include the height & weight of the testers in their results of iPhone4 signal testing? Or maybe Body Mass Index? It seems like the density and thickness of any surface obstructing the wireless signals may affect the results. Skeletor Steve Jobs may never have any signal loss since he is so thin & frail, but your average American fatty might see problems, and a sumo wrestler might not get any signal at all.
Now, as I say at the end of my piece, if the iPhone 4's "ungripped" reception is really good, the attenuation matters a lot less; basically, even when you're holding it, you still come out ahead. Anandtech have shown that to be partly the case. Based on that, they are saying this isn't a smaller issue than it might appear, and I am inclined to agree.
Which helps dispel the notion that this couldn't be a design flaw and was a limited production issue because all owners were not affected equally.
Either way, we are now paying for Apple's secret handshake method of doing business and are still in the dark regarding how/when Apple intends on addressing this.
Full disclosure: I still intend on buying two iPhone 4's for my wife and out-of-town daughter late next month, if the issues are resolved by then. I'm also glad I bailed on the long reserved line on Day One and did not pick up a phone then.
Or here's a thought, maybe expect and hope for a fix. duh!
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
What do you care anyway, don't you use an Android phone?
No, do you? (what an incredibly stupid post for you to make)
iPhone 3G, thanks for asking. When it becomes available in Canada, I will buy the iPhone 4. Liking and wanting an Apple product shouldn't mean blindly accepting or ignoring its faults...that would be ignorant.
This is a very minor issue that will only have ANY impact if you are not in an area with decent 3G coverage to start with, and the Nexus wouldn't be much better off either.
Unfortunatly logic and reason are not nearly as fun as blowing things out of proportion and giving them cactchy names like "death grip"
Quote:
All in all it's very very minor and if it was an issue for some people they can get the Apple bumpers and then they will end up with even better reception than the competing smartphones.
But it's the principle of the thing! The phone should be perfect! I shouldn't have to accept any compromises - ever!
Received iPhone 4 last Wednesday. Have dropped several calls at my home...which NEVER happend with my 3gs.
Called Apple tech support last Thursday to let them know of signal strength problems. They sent me a new iPhone 4 and a complimentary bumper (which I haven't received yet).
The replacement iPhone exhibits the same behavior. I can have 4-5 bars showing while I'm not touching it or holding it loosely. I pick it up or grip it in my left hand (as I would normally hold it while checking email or internet) and it slowly drops bars. Sometimes even down to "searching" or "no service." And their really is no service, no calls and no data (unless I'm on Wifi).
Called tech support back to let them know there is no change with the new phone. I was told this is how the phone was designed. I expressed my disappointment.
Will wait for bumper to arrive to decide if I will return.
In any case do not hold it in any way in the restrooms. The signal over there is always weak and the ambient noise can be unbearable. It is also hygiene problem.
Has anyone bothered to include the height & weight of the testers in their results of iPhone4 signal testing? Or maybe Body Mass Index? It seems like the density and thickness of any surface obstructing the wireless signals may affect the results. Skeletor Steve Jobs may never have any signal loss since he is so thin & frail, but your average American fatty might see problems, and a sumo wrestler might not get any signal at all.
An interesting take if you are being serious, and humorous even if you're not. But "Skeletor"? Come on. Can't we leave his actual life-threatening health issues off the joke table? At least for a while longer, until he's proven to be a survivor? He's not beyond criticism and jibes, but let's stick to faults he can control, not those he can't. A little human decency is all I ask.
I'd just like to clarify -- when I said it was a "lousy phone" I mean "a lousy device for making phone calls on", rather than "a lousy smartphone". Apart from the proximity sensor issues and these signal problems I'm ecstatic with my iPhone 4. Furthermore, the proximity sensor is (personally) probably more annoying than the signal problems and I have a hunch it will be fixed in a software update (I think it's a calibration problem).
Anand shows a drop of 10.7dB when held in the bare hand and 7.7dB when held in a case. I don't think the difference is significant; it's very slight compared to the 12.6dB difference between the iPhone 4 figures. Note that dB is a log scale unit, so these numbers actually reflect a small and quite large difference.
Ouch. I did what I could with the tools that I had, and (in my defence) I was upfront that my testing was limited and what those limits were.
Oh, they've definitely done a much better test than I have -- I have updated my original post to reflect that, and posted again since with a link to Anand's site.
Heh, dunno about defensive, but definitely starstruck. This doesn't happen to me a lot. My blog has had 10,000 hits in the last 24 hours; compared to about 3,000 for the whole of 2010 so far.
I worked alone, and no-one checked my findings. This blog post wouldn't pass a peer review process in a million years. And yet, I believe it was more rigorous than anything I'd read on the web until Anand's post today -- which is not intended to suggest I'm clever, so much as, why did no-one else try and do the really very basic things I did? In any event, I was honest about what I did and how I built my conclusions. That's how tyou do science.
No offence taken, you are correct to do so.
I don't think that's true. I would say that what Anand is saying is: part of this is a real problem, and part of it is a perceived problem that it worse than it is because the calibration of the bars is a little odd (with that very broad range of signal strengths mapped to five bars). Recalibration will make the problem look less odd, but it won't change the attenuation Anandtech measured one whit.
Now, as I say at the end of my piece, if the iPhone 4's "ungripped" reception is really good, the attenuation matters a lot less; basically, even when you're holding it, you still come out ahead. Anandtech have shown that to be partly the case. Based on that, they are saying this isn't a smaller issue than it might appear, and I am inclined to agree.
I get that a lot. Even from Microsoft. It stopped bothering me a long time ago though; about a week after I started school in fact
3dB is half of power. It is not small. That's why we, engineers, have logarithmic expression of power just to compress large drop/increase.
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhsYk61Bzc0
Hey Guys,
Yea I posted a reception video on youtube as a sample to see the bars drop (mine drop FAST):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNHpvElnqmU
I also followed up with testing it with a case as well as making my way to a store to ask the fantastic apple reps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbJDi5B7ibU
My conclusion is the same as the PH.D in the article, fantastic device, lousy phone capabilities
Will
www.youtube.com/tekbeattv
www.tekbeattv.com
Put a small piece of tape over the seam. Works for me.
Dick Gaywood?
Edit: Removed by poster.
Thank you Rob.
For what it is worth, you are the first person here to identify themselves as actually having an iPhone 4. Which is already telling.
Not true. I know I've stated several times that I have an iPhone 4. Several others have, as well.
Changing the way bars are displayed does not fix the antenna problem, it only changes the way signal strength is being reported by the phone. There is no software fix for this.
Yeah, but if you read the articles you'll find that in many cases the bars disappear but the signal actually doesn't. Also almost the whole point of what the first expert was saying was that the bar display is basically made up and can at times have no relation at all to whether the call is going to be dropped.
The problem is that people believe reception is a problem on the phone even though all objective tests say that reception is overall *better* on the iPhone 4 than on any other phone or any previous iPhone. In some cases, this perception of poor reception is accurate, in other cases, not.
It's a hardware/software/firmware problem and a software/firmware fix can solve a large part of it even though underlying problems created by the design of the product may remain for a few.
What has me concerned is that this is going to turn into Apple's Toyota moment.
Reports started to surface that there were problems with Toyota's automobiles.
Toyota said, dismissively, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with our cars.
There were a few instances of unintended acceleration and again Toyota says not our fault.
Unfortunately for Toyota the media latched onto the story and Toyota ends up with a black eye.
Most, but not all, of the unintended accidents were driver error. A few of them were a floor mat problem or a sticky gas pedal.
I think Toyotas mistake was that they appeared arrogant and that they didn't care about their customers safety. If they would have responded quicker and seemed a little more sympathetic they could have kept the publics trust.
I think that Apple's fetish for being secretive and their aloof attitude is going to come back to haunt them. Even though it looks like the phone is working as designed by Apple there are enough people ignorant of the whole story that I think this issue is going to continue to get bad press. When a company as successful as Apple seemingly makes a mistake the press and pundits will pile on them big time. Its part of human nature.
Schadenfreude.
Derived from the German words for harm and pleasure, it means the joy we sometimes cannot help but experience when we hear about another's misfortune.
And Apple suggestion to improve reception people use a case or better yet...buy a Apple bumper is truly a fail.
Bigdaddyp-
There is a huge PR difference between people dying and phone calls being dropped. This will NEVER turn into a Toyota moment. The drama of the outcome is the missing ingredient.
Having said that, I agree with your premise (i.e. that Apple's attitude on this could tarnish their reputation). I am not a big fan of the "don't hold it that way" answer. I'm not so much against the suggestion that people get a bumper. It will eventually save them some roughed up glass edges (at a minimum) and/or dinged-up metal sides.
-Thompson
How do you explain Anand Shimpi's findings on the Nexus, when you are quoted as saying no other phones exhibit this behaviour?
Anand shows a drop of 10.7dB when held in the bare hand and 7.7dB when held in a case. I don't think the difference is significant; it's very slight compared to the 12.6dB difference between the iPhone 4 figures. Note that dB is a log scale unit, so these numbers actually reflect a small and quite large difference.
Anand at least made an attempt to measure things in a semi-controlled environment. and to implement controls. Gaywood did neither.
Ouch. I did what I could with the tools that I had, and (in my defence) I was upfront that my testing was limited and what those limits were.
Note also, that Anand's conclusions were that the iPhone 4, even with its minor glitches was a considerably better phone than the iPhone 3GS - or any other phone on the market. And that was after a wide range of comparisons, not just Gaywood's one uncontrolled experiment.
Oh, they've definitely done a much better test than I have -- I have updated my original post to reflect that, and posted again since with a link to Anand's site.
Whether others were involved in checking their work or if they worked alone. And I am troubled by the fact that Mr. Gaywood made a post here, the tone of which was something other than what I would expect of a serious researcher--a little starstruck and defensive it seemed to me.
Heh, dunno about defensive, but definitely starstruck. This doesn't happen to me a lot. My blog has had 10,000 hits in the last 24 hours; compared to about 3,000 for the whole of 2010 so far.
I worked alone, and no-one checked my findings. This blog post wouldn't pass a peer review process in a million years. And yet, I believe it was more rigorous than anything I'd read on the web until Anand's post today -- which is not intended to suggest I'm clever, so much as, why did no-one else try and do the really very basic things I did? In any event, I was honest about what I did and how I built my conclusions. That's how tyou do science.
Actually not. If you read closely, a large part of what the first expert said (and no offence to Richard Gaywood but he says in his own blog that he is actually *not* an antenna expert so the first expert is the one to really listen to)
No offence taken, you are correct to do so.
So while the ultimate fix might be in the manufacturing, there is a fix for the firmware or software that might alleviate the problem a great deal. By changing the algorithm that determines the bars, they can hopefully fine tune it so that a large part of the problem goes away.
I don't think that's true. I would say that what Anand is saying is: part of this is a real problem, and part of it is a perceived problem that it worse than it is because the calibration of the bars is a little odd (with that very broad range of signal strengths mapped to five bars). Recalibration will make the problem look less odd, but it won't change the attenuation Anandtech measured one whit.
Now, as I say at the end of my piece, if the iPhone 4's "ungripped" reception is really good, the attenuation matters a lot less; basically, even when you're holding it, you still come out ahead. Anandtech have shown that to be partly the case. Based on that, they are saying this isn't a smaller issue than it might appear, and I am inclined to agree.
Grow up.
I get that a lot. Even from Microsoft. It stopped bothering me a long time ago though; about a week after I started school in fact
HA!
http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/a...r-some-reason/
Three Apple job postings for iPhone / iPad antenna engineers to "Define and implement antenna system architecture to optimize the radiation performance for wireless portable devices." All three were posted on June 23rd, the same day that we started seeing widespread reporting of the left-handed reception issues. Coincidence?
My daughter met two Apple engineers while vacationing in Hawaii a few weeks ago. They said when Apple was developing Aperture, Jobs was so displeased with the lack of progress, he walked in and told everyone to collect their things and leave, you're fired!
Thank you Rob.
For what it is worth, you are the first person here to identify themselves as actually having an iPhone 4. Which is already telling.
What is "telling" is that you claim someone reporting no issues with the iPhone 4 to be the only person giving a hands-on review. Clearly you're adopting the classic head-in-sand approach to the numerous other reports on Appleinsider (and elsewhere) from owners of the iPhone 4 who ARE having problems.
I can only hope Apple is not taking the same approach as you (though Jobs and Apple's initial responses were very disconcerting).
Now, as I say at the end of my piece, if the iPhone 4's "ungripped" reception is really good, the attenuation matters a lot less; basically, even when you're holding it, you still come out ahead. Anandtech have shown that to be partly the case. Based on that, they are saying this isn't a smaller issue than it might appear, and I am inclined to agree.
Which helps dispel the notion that this couldn't be a design flaw and was a limited production issue because all owners were not affected equally.
Either way, we are now paying for Apple's secret handshake method of doing business and are still in the dark regarding how/when Apple intends on addressing this.
Full disclosure: I still intend on buying two iPhone 4's for my wife and out-of-town daughter late next month, if the issues are resolved by then. I'm also glad I bailed on the long reserved line on Day One and did not pick up a phone then.
Or return it and buy a different phone. Sheesh!
Or here's a thought, maybe expect and hope for a fix. duh!
What do you care anyway, don't you use an Android phone?
No, do you? (what an incredibly stupid post for you to make)
iPhone 3G, thanks for asking. When it becomes available in Canada, I will buy the iPhone 4. Liking and wanting an Apple product shouldn't mean blindly accepting or ignoring its faults...that would be ignorant.
This is a very minor issue that will only have ANY impact if you are not in an area with decent 3G coverage to start with, and the Nexus wouldn't be much better off either.
Unfortunatly logic and reason are not nearly as fun as blowing things out of proportion and giving them cactchy names like "death grip"
All in all it's very very minor and if it was an issue for some people they can get the Apple bumpers and then they will end up with even better reception than the competing smartphones.
But it's the principle of the thing! The phone should be perfect! I shouldn't have to accept any compromises - ever!
Called Apple tech support last Thursday to let them know of signal strength problems. They sent me a new iPhone 4 and a complimentary bumper (which I haven't received yet).
The replacement iPhone exhibits the same behavior. I can have 4-5 bars showing while I'm not touching it or holding it loosely. I pick it up or grip it in my left hand (as I would normally hold it while checking email or internet) and it slowly drops bars. Sometimes even down to "searching" or "no service." And their really is no service, no calls and no data (unless I'm on Wifi).
Called tech support back to let them know there is no change with the new phone. I was told this is how the phone was designed. I expressed my disappointment.
Will wait for bumper to arrive to decide if I will return.
Other than signal issue...love the iPhone 4.
I'd just like to clarify --
Thanks for the clarification. You addressed all my concerns with good humor. A pleasure to engage with you; you're quite a guy.
Has anyone bothered to include the height & weight of the testers in their results of iPhone4 signal testing? Or maybe Body Mass Index? It seems like the density and thickness of any surface obstructing the wireless signals may affect the results. Skeletor Steve Jobs may never have any signal loss since he is so thin & frail, but your average American fatty might see problems, and a sumo wrestler might not get any signal at all.
An interesting take if you are being serious, and humorous even if you're not. But "Skeletor"? Come on. Can't we leave his actual life-threatening health issues off the joke table? At least for a while longer, until he's proven to be a survivor? He's not beyond criticism and jibes, but let's stick to faults he can control, not those he can't. A little human decency is all I ask.
I'd just like to clarify -- when I said it was a "lousy phone" I mean "a lousy device for making phone calls on", rather than "a lousy smartphone". Apart from the proximity sensor issues and these signal problems I'm ecstatic with my iPhone 4. Furthermore, the proximity sensor is (personally) probably more annoying than the signal problems and I have a hunch it will be fixed in a software update (I think it's a calibration problem).
Anand shows a drop of 10.7dB when held in the bare hand and 7.7dB when held in a case. I don't think the difference is significant; it's very slight compared to the 12.6dB difference between the iPhone 4 figures. Note that dB is a log scale unit, so these numbers actually reflect a small and quite large difference.
Ouch. I did what I could with the tools that I had, and (in my defence) I was upfront that my testing was limited and what those limits were.
Oh, they've definitely done a much better test than I have -- I have updated my original post to reflect that, and posted again since with a link to Anand's site.
Heh, dunno about defensive, but definitely starstruck. This doesn't happen to me a lot. My blog has had 10,000 hits in the last 24 hours; compared to about 3,000 for the whole of 2010 so far.
I worked alone, and no-one checked my findings. This blog post wouldn't pass a peer review process in a million years. And yet, I believe it was more rigorous than anything I'd read on the web until Anand's post today -- which is not intended to suggest I'm clever, so much as, why did no-one else try and do the really very basic things I did? In any event, I was honest about what I did and how I built my conclusions. That's how tyou do science.
No offence taken, you are correct to do so.
I don't think that's true. I would say that what Anand is saying is: part of this is a real problem, and part of it is a perceived problem that it worse than it is because the calibration of the bars is a little odd (with that very broad range of signal strengths mapped to five bars). Recalibration will make the problem look less odd, but it won't change the attenuation Anandtech measured one whit.
Now, as I say at the end of my piece, if the iPhone 4's "ungripped" reception is really good, the attenuation matters a lot less; basically, even when you're holding it, you still come out ahead. Anandtech have shown that to be partly the case. Based on that, they are saying this isn't a smaller issue than it might appear, and I am inclined to agree.
I get that a lot. Even from Microsoft. It stopped bothering me a long time ago though; about a week after I started school in fact
3dB is half of power. It is not small. That's why we, engineers, have logarithmic expression of power just to compress large drop/increase.
Not true. I know I've stated several times that I have an iPhone 4. Several others have, as well.
I was referring to the survey.
Would be interested in your observations as well.