No, what I said isn't nonsense, and what you said was just insulting, and completely baseless. You really think I'm just pulling this stuff out of thin air to be argumentative?
Let me ask you: If Apple didn't cooperate with Adobe in making the Flash Player run better on OSX, who's fault is it that flash is buggy? You guys can sit here and bash Adobe all you want, but what if you're wrong? What if Adobe tried to work with Apple to get Flash to work correctly but Apple very characteristically snubbed them? Suddenly Flash is outdated garbage that everyone should drop!?
I can answer the above scenario: If you were all shown beyond a doubt that you were wrong, nothing would change. Apple wouldn't listen to you pleading for them to do what they need to do to give Flash a fighting chance, and instead they would tell you html5 is better and you would convince yourselves everything Apple tells you is right, because what else can you do? Get mad at Apple? Hell to the no! It's your beloved overlord Apple
edit:
And BTW, I am more than willing to accept that the answer lies in the middle, where Apple didn't give the level of cooperation Adobe needed, so Adobe put less effort into Flash for osx as sort of a punishment to Apple. If this is true, however, Adobe gave Apple all the more reason to convince people Flash is horrible.
But what is your evidence — I mean actual evidence, not just "doesn't it make sense that…" —that Apple wouldn't cooperate, rather than Adobe just refused to put in the coding hours? You talk about not drinking the cool aid, so where is your evidence? (I mean quotes, discussions with Adobe coders or management, or Apple coders etc.)
edit: my bet btw is that you just pass silently over this question of evidence.
Suddenly Flash is outdated garbage that everyone should drop!?
Irrespective of anything else, Flash is philosophically wrong. The last thing the consumer wants is to be locked into proprietary technologies on the web. And before you try to draw parallels with Apples technologies, it's a bit different, none of Apples proprietary technologies make up the fundamental fabric of the web.
If society gets locked into Flash we could have another Microsoft situation with all the technical regression that goes hand in hand.
Long term Flash is VERY bad for everyone bar Adobe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster
It's your beloved overlord Apple
I'm actually pretty pissed with and critical of Apple at the mo on a number of fronts
I see it as forward thinking. Just like when they dropped the floppy diskette from their computers and only used CD/DVD drives. Everybody was upset and shocked...for a few months and then moved on with their lives. And when they starting phasing out CRT monitors and replaced them with flat panels. The rest of the industry started to do the same and followed Apples lead.
Bad examples. Apple dumped internal floppy drives, but third party manufacturers got good business for several years afterwards making USB floppy drives, so people were still able to use floppies even though Apple said they were dead. What's the alternative for running Flash if Apple refuses to let Flash into the App Store? If you replace CRTs with LCDs, you don't change the functionality of your computer at all. Everything will continue to work as it has. Just refusing to support Flash means a lot of websites simply stop working for visitors using iPads, and there are usually no HTML alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yensid98
I agree. And if consumers don't like Apple's policy they can vote with their wallets and buy an iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch. Thing is, that very few if any people are doing that. Apple is selling these devices (minus the iPad since it's not out yet) like hot cakes. General consumers don't seem to care that the 'beloved' Flash isn't supported.
Apple has given the public a choice and they are choosing to forego Flash.
No, Apple has not given people choice. Most users don't know what Flash is and they don't know that the iPad won't support it. But you'll almost certainly hear a lot of complaints when people receive their iPads and start seeing a lot of "missing plugin" symbols that they can't do anything about on various websites, including the New York Times. Somehow, I doubt the Times is going to go back and re-code all of their interactive features from the last decade to use HTML5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brudy918
Java apps often totally suck, but nobody is killing java.
Actually, Apple has. Sun said they were working to put Java on the iPhone back in 2008. As far as anyone knows, it's not happening anytime in the foreseeable future.
You have no idea what your talking about at all. Most of what you are saying makes no sense in relationship to any kind of coherent HTML 5 vs Flash argument.
here are two reasons why:
1. How will you create a movie using HTML5?
2. Did you not test what you created in ALL possible browsers BEFORE sending the project to the client?
If you do ANY kind of web development and aren't testing browsers you have problems. HTML5 isn't going to stop clients from being mad at you.
Flash may have its problems but this isn't the result of them. This is the result of you not doing proper testing and also not understanding what HTML 5 actually does.
Could not agree with you more alkrantz.
Before I go one, let me just say that I came across this site minutes ago, while googling around, doing some read on Conde Nast. Found the forum and this is the first thread I came across, seem like lots of arrogance and fanboys in here, statements about technology they obviously know very little about.
Crashes, lazy, old technology.... ? Quite amusing read so far.
I don't quite understand that tho, just because we all are Apple products enthusiast, does not mean we need to worship everything Apple does or say. They do have problems and the more we demand and complain, the more the product will be refined to please the clients needs and meet popular demand. Yet Instead, many choose to play Steve's song and blindly disregard Flash and its place on the web arena. Really silly.... biased and narrow minded.
I have been using Flash happily on my Mac for 8 years now. I have design using Flash and surf Flash and I never had any problems with it. I have two iPhones but I would never use it to surf web so I don't care about Flash support. Excuse me but the idea of constantly pinching, scrolling and reading on a 480-by-320-pixel screen is not my idea of surfing. iphone does what it does, play games, make calls, take photo, send text, play music in my bmw via the ipod kit and get handy when I need to quickly find some reference using google. Let's not forger that during all the browser wars (CSS, Active X, Javascript, DHTML etc...) Flash is the only media that is truly cross OS and browser compatible.
The whole support and performance bullcrap has a specific reason behind. For one, Apple is being lazy to develop real and powerful operating system to support current technologies without compromising the size and power usage of the device. Flash is desktop application and it does not perform well on small devices just like any other technology. You all forgot about QTVR ? Come on, it's a Apple's native format and yet it's not supported on iphone and ipad. Why? Because it's resource hogging and power hungry... means really bad engineering on Apple's side.
Secondly, and most important, (let me quote here) "you need to remember that Apple is a company that enjoys total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on, so allowing Flash — which is a development platform of its own — would just be too dangerous as it would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store. There is a reason why Apple desperately forces Flash out. And it's not technical as they often claim, it's simply pure profit greed."
Dear alkrantz
For all the people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on – Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works across multiple browser Laughable and I really don't
feel like making comments if someone even try to compare HTML5 to Flash - it's obvious, he/she simply know very little
about either one ....
HTML 5 is a neat idea and may be friendly for video delivery, simple animations and those who don't know Flash, but how long (if ever) will it be before it can do everything Flash can? What will Flash be able to do by then? Adobe’s not going anywhere and their device penetration is only growing bigger with each day.
I will continue to enjoy my bookPro and iMacs but I will say Thank You and No Thank You to iPad for now. I don't consider Ultimate Surfing Experience while surfing 20% of the 80% of not supported internet sites.
But Windows Mobile Phones CAN'T run Flash without a hitch. It's slow and resource hungry there too. Watch a flash stream and tell me how long your battery takes to drain. Yeah right...
Jobs' isn't making anything up. You just said above that Flash and OS X have issues... then contradict yourself below... you are trolling and this is flame bait. And I know you are full of it because no one WANTS more Flash on the net. People want videos and interactive content, whether that's Flash or not is outside the fact.
The bottom line is it took Apple to make all the shortcomings of Flash public knowledge. Adobe knew they had a dead horse long ago. And rather than come up with a new system, they rode their market share and enjoyed the revenue. But technology changes fast and they pretty much got caught with their pants around their ankles. It happens to everyone; just a byproduct of being a massive corporation. It'll happen to Apple one day too...
If he is fool, then you are an arrogant fool.
What gives YOU right to say that no one wants more Flash on the net??? Did you speak with everyone on this planet? Is there actual poll published where people were asked about Flash and vast majority voted against it..?
I do realise that, whatever his true reasons are, SJ managed to convince number of Apple followers on the war path against Flash, but likewise - you should realise that for Windows users, Flash is not an issue... and that still makes vast majority of Internet users.
Is Flash killing battery on WinMo phones? So what? Games are killing my iPhone battery much faster than YouTube. Should Apple ditch all games from their App Store because of that..?
We all know by now that Apple's reasons for trying to kill Flash are much deeper that it's "inefficiency". It is good guess as any that pointing at Flash problems work better than saying "We want to kill Flash in order to prevent people from using free Flash web apps and watch media not purchased from us" - not even the company that makes best money in the industry wants to look greedy by default - and it is everybody's right to believe in one side of reasoning or the other - but pulling rest of the world under one's opinion is nothing but arrogant.
Likewise is believing that industry will ditch Flash because of single device - even before that device is available.
Before I go one, let me just say that I came across this site minutes ago, while googling around, doing some read on Conde Nast. Found the forum and this is the first thread I came across, seem like lots of arrogance and fanboys in here, statements about technology they obviously know very little about.
Crashes, lazy, old technology.... ? Quite amusing read so far.
I don't quite understand that tho, just because we all are Apple products enthusiast, does not mean we need to worship everything Apple does or say. They do have problems and the more we demand and complain, the more the product will be refined to please the clients needs and meet popular demand. Yet Instead, many choose to play Steve's song and blindly disregard Flash and its place on the web arena. Really silly.... biased and narrow minded.
I have been using Flash happily on my Mac for 8 years now. I have design using Flash and surf Flash and I never had any problems with it. I have two iPhones but I would never use it to surf web so I don't care about Flash support. Excuse me but the idea of constantly pinching, scrolling and reading on a 480-by-320-pixel screen is not my idea of surfing. iphone does what it does, play games, make calls, take photo, send text, play music in my bmw via the ipod kit and get handy when I need to quickly find some reference using google. Let's not forger that during all the browser wars (CSS, Active X, Javascript, DHTML etc...) Flash is the only media that is truly cross OS and browser compatible.
The whole support and performance bullcrap has a specific reason behind. For one, Apple is being lazy to develop real and powerful operating system to support current technologies without compromising the size and power usage of the device. Flash is desktop application and it does not perform well on small devices just like any other technology. You all forgot about QTVR ? Come on, it's a Apple's native format and yet it's not supported on iphone and ipad. Why? Because it's resource hogging and power hungry... means really bad engineering on Apple's side.
Secondly, and most important, (let me quote here) "you need to remember that Apple is a company that enjoys total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on, so allowing Flash ? which is a development platform of its own ? would just be too dangerous as it would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store. There is a reason why Apple desperately forces Flash out. And it's not technical as they often claim, it's simply pure profit greed."
Dear alkrantz
For all the people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on ? Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works across multiple browser Laughable and I really don't
feel like making comments if someone even try to compare HTML5 to Flash - it's obvious, he/she simply know very little
about either one ....
HTML 5 is a neat idea and may be friendly for video delivery, simple animations and those who don't know Flash, but how long (if ever) will it be before it can do everything Flash can? What will Flash be able to do by then? Adobe?s not going anywhere and their device penetration is only growing bigger with each day.
I will continue to enjoy my bookPro and iMacs but I will say Thank You and No Thank You to iPad for now. I don't consider Ultimate Surfing Experience while surfing 20% of the 80% of not supported internet sites.
If businesses want consumers who own iPhones and iPads to visit their sites they will provide alternatives.
If they don't their competitors will.
Businesses aren't in place to promote Adobe Flash, they are there to promote themselves and their products.
Not having your products delivered to consumers is no way to run a business.
If I was making a site and it wasn't accessible to everyone, I'd find another developer one who isn't going to overcharge in order to recoup the cost of Adobe's development tools.
Why is Adobe still using Carbon to develop Flash for OSX the writing was on the wall years ago that Cocoa will be the development tool for OSX, is it Apples fault that Adobe deliberately chose to ignore Cocoa?
Adobe has to fix their shit, then they might get a look in.
Too bad HTML5 can't do even 1% of what can be done with Flash. As soon as whatever eventually does do what Flash can do, we will all be happy to embrace it. Until then you will need to code two versions of everything, that is if you want real interactive multimedia. Of course if you just want the lowest common denominator then HTML/CSS/JS works, sort of. But who is really ever satisfied with the lowest common denominator?
Javascript is good and all, but if you don't have an intuitive development environment to work in it makes it really difficult to be productive. Someone needs to deliver the authoring software for that platform before it will become as ubiquitous as Flash.
By the way I have this nice tip for dealing with Click2Flash blocks.
Put your Flash in a div with a background image of the poster-image for your Flash. That way even though the Flash is blocked the user can see what the still image looks like. This serves two purposes. One, they might like what they see and click on it, and two, it makes the page look artistically balanced instead of an ugly gray box.
If businesses want consumers who own iPhones and iPads to visit their sites they will provide alternatives.
If they don't their competitors will.
Businesses aren't in place to promote Adobe Flash, they are there to promote themselves and their products.
Not having your products delivered to consumers is no way to run a business.
If I was making a site and it wasn't accessible to everyone, I'd find another developer one who isn't going to overcharge in order to recoup the cost of Adobe's development tools.
Why is Adobe still using Carbon to develop Flash for OSX the writing was on the wall years ago that Cocoa will be the development tool for OSX, is it Apples fault that Adobe deliberately chose to ignore Cocoa?
Adobe has to fix their shit, then they might get a look in.
Lazy...
Lazy...
Lazy...
It sounds like you're the lazy one and has done little to no research on the next version of CS5.
Quit bitching, start reading other articles than AI and comics and get with the program or be left behind. Just like Apple, Adobe decided to make it Intel only.
Article Title
Adobe CS5 on Mac to be Intel-only, Cocoa, 64-bit native
HTML5 does everything people care about, like video and simple animations.
Flash is getting replaced, accept it.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Read post 42 by Kolchak.
His/Her quote is exactly right for most computer users that don't post on forums (the average user).
"No, Apple has not given people choice. Most users don't know what Flash is and they don't know that the iPad won't support it. But you'll almost certainly hear a lot of complaints when people receive their iPads and start seeing a lot of "missing plugin" symbols that they can't do anything about on various websites, including the New York Times. Somehow, I doubt the Times is going to go back and re-code all of their interactive features from the last decade to use HTML5.".
Before I go one, let me just say that I came across this site minutes ago, while googling around, doing some read on Conde Nast. Found the forum and this is the first thread I came across, seem like lots of arrogance and fanboys in here, statements about technology they obviously know very little about.
Crashes, lazy, old technology.... ? Quite amusing read so far.
I don't quite understand that tho, just because we all are Apple products enthusiast, does not mean we need to worship everything Apple does or say. They do have problems and the more we demand and complain, the more the product will be refined to please the clients needs and meet popular demand. Yet Instead, many choose to play Steve's song and blindly disregard Flash and its place on the web arena. Really silly.... biased and narrow minded.
I have been using Flash happily on my Mac for 8 years now. I have design using Flash and surf Flash and I never had any problems with it. I have two iPhones but I would never use it to surf web so I don't care about Flash support. Excuse me but the idea of constantly pinching, scrolling and reading on a 480-by-320-pixel screen is not my idea of surfing. iphone does what it does, play games, make calls, take photo, send text, play music in my bmw via the ipod kit and get handy when I need to quickly find some reference using google. Let's not forger that during all the browser wars (CSS, Active X, Javascript, DHTML etc...) Flash is the only media that is truly cross OS and browser compatible.
The whole support and performance bullcrap has a specific reason behind. For one, Apple is being lazy to develop real and powerful operating system to support current technologies without compromising the size and power usage of the device. Flash is desktop application and it does not perform well on small devices just like any other technology. You all forgot about QTVR ? Come on, it's a Apple's native format and yet it's not supported on iphone and ipad. Why? Because it's resource hogging and power hungry... means really bad engineering on Apple's side.
Secondly, and most important, (let me quote here) "you need to remember that Apple is a company that enjoys total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on, so allowing Flash — which is a development platform of its own — would just be too dangerous as it would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store. There is a reason why Apple desperately forces Flash out. And it's not technical as they often claim, it's simply pure profit greed."
Dear alkrantz
For all the people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on – Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works across multiple browser Laughable and I really don't
feel like making comments if someone even try to compare HTML5 to Flash - it's obvious, he/she simply know very little
about either one ....
HTML 5 is a neat idea and may be friendly for video delivery, simple animations and those who don't know Flash, but how long (if ever) will it be before it can do everything Flash can? What will Flash be able to do by then? Adobe’s not going anywhere and their device penetration is only growing bigger with each day.
I will continue to enjoy my bookPro and iMacs but I will say Thank You and No Thank You to iPad for now. I don't consider Ultimate Surfing Experience while surfing 20% of the 80% of not supported internet sites.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Read post 42 by Kolchak.
His/Her quote is exactly right for most computer users that don't post on forums (the average user).
"No, Apple has not given people choice. Most users don't know what Flash is and they don't know that the iPad won't support it. But you'll almost certainly hear a lot of complaints when people receive their iPads and start seeing a lot of "missing plugin" symbols that they can't do anything about on various websites, including the New York Times. Somehow, I doubt the Times is going to go back and re-code all of their interactive features from the last decade to use HTML5.".
What I said is fact. Apple haters like you can?t argue with that.
But what is your evidence ? I mean actual evidence, not just "doesn't it make sense that?" ?that Apple wouldn't cooperate, rather than Adobe just refused to put in the coding hours? You talk about not drinking the cool aid, so where is your evidence? (I mean quotes, discussions with Adobe coders or management, or Apple coders etc.)
edit: my bet btw is that you just pass silently over this question of evidence.
Hmmmm. Now, before you posted THIS question, did it ever occur to you to ask yourself the SAME EXACT THING? What evidence points to Adobe being incompetent at programming for osx!?
The only evidence people can point to is hear-say from Adobe employees who say Apple doesn?t cooperate with Adobe in making the Flash Player run better on OSX.
Now reading those articles you've got two sides to the argument: Apple who says Adobe just doesn't care, and they programmed flash for OSX lazily and horribly, and you've got Adobe who says Apple didn't provide enough cooperation to get flash running as well as Microsoft did which is why it runs so much better in Windows.
Here's what we know and how I deduce my conclusion:
Adobe makes other software for OSX that runs fine. They haven't shown an unfair bias towards osx vs windows in this regard.
Apple is known for lacking the same skills Microsoft has when it comes to cooperating with other companies. This even comes right from Steve Jobs' mouth.
Apple prefers to control every aspect of their products, and it takes almost divine intervention for them to give access to the innards of their systems for developers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
Irrespective of anything else, Flash is philosophically wrong. The last thing the consumer wants is to be locked into proprietary technologies on the web. And before you try to draw parallels with Apples technologies, it's a bit different, none of Apples proprietary technologies make up the fundamental fabric of the web.
If society gets locked into Flash we could have another Microsoft situation with all the technical regression that goes hand in hand.
Long term Flash is VERY bad for everyone bar Adobe.
Well I kind of agree, but I kind of disagree too. Flash has competition, and so long as it all works correctly, consumers could care less what technology is used. People understand what Flash is because it was dominant for so long, and right now popular sites like Hulu depend on it.
When I said I was Joe Consumer and I wanted more flash sites, I'm saying exactly what any person would say when it comes to interactive sites. It may not need to be flash exactly, but having nothing at all is definitely not what people want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
I'm actually pretty pissed with and critical of Apple at the mo on a number of fronts
HTML5 does everything people care about, like video and simple animations.
Flash is getting replaced, accept it.
Wow you must be one heck of a talented developer, programmer, designer. How profound is your insight into all things people care about on the Internet. I'm so unworthy.
If businesses want consumers who own iPhones and iPads to visit their sites they will provide alternatives.
If they don't their competitors will.
Businesses aren't in place to promote Adobe Flash, they are there to promote themselves and their products.
Not having your products delivered to consumers is no way to run a business.
If I was making a site and it wasn't accessible to everyone, I'd find another developer one who isn't going to overcharge in order to recoup the cost of Adobe's development tools.
The iPhone is now three years old and has never supported Flash. If it's absolutely essential for companies to support the iPhone, why haven't companies left and right dropped their Flash websites in favor of HTML over the last three years?
I think there is a critical point many people are failing to understand.
Apple isn't keeping Flash from the iPad or iPhone for performance reasons. If all they cared about was performance they would work with Adobe to make it better.
The performance of Flash on a Mac is unrelated to the strategic decision Apple is making. That is not to say it is irrelevant, but let's be clear about whats actually happening here.
Apple isn't keeping Flash from the iPhone and iPad as the result of some altruistic belief that the web should be open source.
Apple has never been a proponent of being open source. In fact, they have alway propagated an entirely closed eco-system and it has worked well for them.
Witholding Flash is a strategic business decision and one which for the moment Apple shareholders should applaud.
The be more specific, what is actually happening is this:
Flash can provide the same degree of interactivity over the web as an overwhelming majority of the apps in the apps store.
The app store is the single largest selling point for Apple mobile products and the largest differentiator from it's competition. (in my opinion)
If Flash were allowed on Apples mobile product line, it would severely impact the app store value proposition because the vast majority of what is available in the app store would be available online for free.
There are millions of Flash developers, some of them are amazing and some of them are terrible.
Many of the problems related to terrible CPU usage are a result of poor programming and not the Flash plug-in itself. This is not to say Flash on the mac is without problems. But it is true that a great deal of these problems are the result of poor programming. This is a problem that occurs with ANY popular platform and is present in every programming environment today.
We see bad PC apps just like we see bad Flash apps, just like we see CPU intensive JS and so on. None of these technologies are inherently bad, but the more popular they are, the more likely they are to be misused. Furthermore, the same programmers who create crappy code now will move to what ever is next and do the same thing. This is not a new phenomenon.
From Apples perspective, while it is true that terrible interactive flash causes problems and reduces Apples ability to quality control the iPhone environment, they don't actually care about that. Any of us who own an iPhone know that there are a ton of apps in the app store that perform horribly and crash all the time. Apple does not remove them. Because the more apps there are in the app store, the more apps Apple can SAY there are. And THAT sells iPhones.
Putting Flash on the iPhone will directly impact the app store, reduce it sales, and reduce the viability of the app store product model.
Read that last sentence again guys. because THAT IS EXACTLY WHY Flash is not on the iPhone. It is also why phone manufacturers that have struggled to create an app store experience similar to the iPhone will adopt Flash in an attempt to cash in on the rush of Flash developers who have a ton of experience creating games online and are craving to port those games to a mobile environment.
I believe that Flash 10.1 will see a proliferation of Flash on mobile and as a result Apple will eventually adopt Flash as well with some kind of "Adobe finally got its act together" speech. But until that point, they really have no reason to. In fact, it would be a bad strategic business decision.
The basic premise is that Apple wants to have as much control as they possibly can and capture as many customers in a closed environmental product loop as they can. This is exactly the same strategy that Microsoft employs and it will not change until market forces require it to be so.
The Apple vs Flash debate is smart business for Apple. If I had any of their stock I would be happy about it. I don't, so I will probably pass on the iPad for now.
Comments
Anyone who develops a Flash-only website is just being lazy,.
Versus spending endless hours on making your site look the same on every browser and making JavaScript actually work?
I LOVE FLASH
No, what I said isn't nonsense, and what you said was just insulting, and completely baseless. You really think I'm just pulling this stuff out of thin air to be argumentative?
Let me ask you: If Apple didn't cooperate with Adobe in making the Flash Player run better on OSX, who's fault is it that flash is buggy? You guys can sit here and bash Adobe all you want, but what if you're wrong? What if Adobe tried to work with Apple to get Flash to work correctly but Apple very characteristically snubbed them? Suddenly Flash is outdated garbage that everyone should drop!?
I can answer the above scenario: If you were all shown beyond a doubt that you were wrong, nothing would change. Apple wouldn't listen to you pleading for them to do what they need to do to give Flash a fighting chance, and instead they would tell you html5 is better and you would convince yourselves everything Apple tells you is right, because what else can you do? Get mad at Apple? Hell to the no! It's your beloved overlord Apple
edit:
And BTW, I am more than willing to accept that the answer lies in the middle, where Apple didn't give the level of cooperation Adobe needed, so Adobe put less effort into Flash for osx as sort of a punishment to Apple. If this is true, however, Adobe gave Apple all the more reason to convince people Flash is horrible.
But what is your evidence — I mean actual evidence, not just "doesn't it make sense that…" —that Apple wouldn't cooperate, rather than Adobe just refused to put in the coding hours? You talk about not drinking the cool aid, so where is your evidence? (I mean quotes, discussions with Adobe coders or management, or Apple coders etc.)
edit: my bet btw is that you just pass silently over this question of evidence.
Suddenly Flash is outdated garbage that everyone should drop!?
Irrespective of anything else, Flash is philosophically wrong. The last thing the consumer wants is to be locked into proprietary technologies on the web. And before you try to draw parallels with Apples technologies, it's a bit different, none of Apples proprietary technologies make up the fundamental fabric of the web.
If society gets locked into Flash we could have another Microsoft situation with all the technical regression that goes hand in hand.
Long term Flash is VERY bad for everyone bar Adobe.
It's your beloved overlord Apple
I'm actually pretty pissed with and critical of Apple at the mo on a number of fronts
I see it as forward thinking. Just like when they dropped the floppy diskette from their computers and only used CD/DVD drives. Everybody was upset and shocked...for a few months and then moved on with their lives. And when they starting phasing out CRT monitors and replaced them with flat panels. The rest of the industry started to do the same and followed Apples lead.
Bad examples. Apple dumped internal floppy drives, but third party manufacturers got good business for several years afterwards making USB floppy drives, so people were still able to use floppies even though Apple said they were dead. What's the alternative for running Flash if Apple refuses to let Flash into the App Store? If you replace CRTs with LCDs, you don't change the functionality of your computer at all. Everything will continue to work as it has. Just refusing to support Flash means a lot of websites simply stop working for visitors using iPads, and there are usually no HTML alternatives.
I agree. And if consumers don't like Apple's policy they can vote with their wallets and buy an iPhone, iPad or iPod Touch. Thing is, that very few if any people are doing that. Apple is selling these devices (minus the iPad since it's not out yet) like hot cakes. General consumers don't seem to care that the 'beloved' Flash isn't supported.
Apple has given the public a choice and they are choosing to forego Flash.
No, Apple has not given people choice. Most users don't know what Flash is and they don't know that the iPad won't support it. But you'll almost certainly hear a lot of complaints when people receive their iPads and start seeing a lot of "missing plugin" symbols that they can't do anything about on various websites, including the New York Times. Somehow, I doubt the Times is going to go back and re-code all of their interactive features from the last decade to use HTML5.
Java apps often totally suck, but nobody is killing java.
Actually, Apple has. Sun said they were working to put Java on the iPhone back in 2008. As far as anyone knows, it's not happening anytime in the foreseeable future.
You have no idea what your talking about at all. Most of what you are saying makes no sense in relationship to any kind of coherent HTML 5 vs Flash argument.
here are two reasons why:
1. How will you create a movie using HTML5?
2. Did you not test what you created in ALL possible browsers BEFORE sending the project to the client?
If you do ANY kind of web development and aren't testing browsers you have problems. HTML5 isn't going to stop clients from being mad at you.
Flash may have its problems but this isn't the result of them. This is the result of you not doing proper testing and also not understanding what HTML 5 actually does.
Could not agree with you more alkrantz.
Before I go one, let me just say that I came across this site minutes ago, while googling around, doing some read on Conde Nast. Found the forum and this is the first thread I came across, seem like lots of arrogance and fanboys in here, statements about technology they obviously know very little about.
Crashes, lazy, old technology.... ?
I don't quite understand that tho, just because we all are Apple products enthusiast, does not mean we need to worship everything Apple does or say. They do have problems and the more we demand and complain, the more the product will be refined to please the clients needs and meet popular demand. Yet Instead, many choose to play Steve's song and blindly disregard Flash and its place on the web arena. Really silly.... biased and narrow minded.
I have been using Flash happily on my Mac for 8 years now. I have design using Flash and surf Flash and I never had any problems with it. I have two iPhones but I would never use it to surf web so I don't care about Flash support. Excuse me but the idea of constantly pinching, scrolling and reading on a 480-by-320-pixel screen is not my idea of surfing. iphone does what it does, play games, make calls, take photo, send text, play music in my bmw via the ipod kit and get handy when I need to quickly find some reference using google. Let's not forger that during all the browser wars (CSS, Active X, Javascript, DHTML etc...) Flash is the only media that is truly cross OS and browser compatible.
The whole support and performance bullcrap has a specific reason behind. For one, Apple is being lazy to develop real and powerful operating system to support current technologies without compromising the size and power usage of the device. Flash is desktop application and it does not perform well on small devices just like any other technology. You all forgot about QTVR ? Come on, it's a Apple's native format and yet it's not supported on iphone and ipad. Why? Because it's resource hogging and power hungry... means really bad engineering on Apple's side.
Secondly, and most important, (let me quote here) "you need to remember that Apple is a company that enjoys total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on, so allowing Flash — which is a development platform of its own — would just be too dangerous as it would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store. There is a reason why Apple desperately forces Flash out. And it's not technical as they often claim, it's simply pure profit greed."
Dear alkrantz
For all the people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on – Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works across multiple browser
feel like making comments if someone even try to compare HTML5 to Flash - it's obvious, he/she simply know very little
about either one ....
HTML 5 is a neat idea and may be friendly for video delivery, simple animations and those who don't know Flash, but how long (if ever) will it be before it can do everything Flash can? What will Flash be able to do by then? Adobe’s not going anywhere and their device penetration is only growing bigger with each day.
I will continue to enjoy my bookPro and iMacs but I will say Thank You and No Thank You to iPad for now. I don't consider Ultimate Surfing Experience while surfing 20% of the 80% of not supported internet sites.
regards
Monika Oga
But Windows Mobile Phones CAN'T run Flash without a hitch. It's slow and resource hungry there too. Watch a flash stream and tell me how long your battery takes to drain. Yeah right...
Jobs' isn't making anything up. You just said above that Flash and OS X have issues... then contradict yourself below... you are trolling and this is flame bait. And I know you are full of it because no one WANTS more Flash on the net. People want videos and interactive content, whether that's Flash or not is outside the fact.
The bottom line is it took Apple to make all the shortcomings of Flash public knowledge. Adobe knew they had a dead horse long ago. And rather than come up with a new system, they rode their market share and enjoyed the revenue. But technology changes fast and they pretty much got caught with their pants around their ankles. It happens to everyone; just a byproduct of being a massive corporation. It'll happen to Apple one day too...
If he is fool, then you are an arrogant fool.
What gives YOU right to say that no one wants more Flash on the net??? Did you speak with everyone on this planet? Is there actual poll published where people were asked about Flash and vast majority voted against it..?
I do realise that, whatever his true reasons are, SJ managed to convince number of Apple followers on the war path against Flash, but likewise - you should realise that for Windows users, Flash is not an issue... and that still makes vast majority of Internet users.
Is Flash killing battery on WinMo phones? So what? Games are killing my iPhone battery much faster than YouTube. Should Apple ditch all games from their App Store because of that..?
We all know by now that Apple's reasons for trying to kill Flash are much deeper that it's "inefficiency". It is good guess as any that pointing at Flash problems work better than saying "We want to kill Flash in order to prevent people from using free Flash web apps and watch media not purchased from us" - not even the company that makes best money in the industry wants to look greedy by default - and it is everybody's right to believe in one side of reasoning or the other - but pulling rest of the world under one's opinion is nothing but arrogant.
Likewise is believing that industry will ditch Flash because of single device - even before that device is available.
Could not agree with you more alkrantz.
Before I go one, let me just say that I came across this site minutes ago, while googling around, doing some read on Conde Nast. Found the forum and this is the first thread I came across, seem like lots of arrogance and fanboys in here, statements about technology they obviously know very little about.
Crashes, lazy, old technology.... ?
I don't quite understand that tho, just because we all are Apple products enthusiast, does not mean we need to worship everything Apple does or say. They do have problems and the more we demand and complain, the more the product will be refined to please the clients needs and meet popular demand. Yet Instead, many choose to play Steve's song and blindly disregard Flash and its place on the web arena. Really silly.... biased and narrow minded.
I have been using Flash happily on my Mac for 8 years now. I have design using Flash and surf Flash and I never had any problems with it. I have two iPhones but I would never use it to surf web so I don't care about Flash support. Excuse me but the idea of constantly pinching, scrolling and reading on a 480-by-320-pixel screen is not my idea of surfing. iphone does what it does, play games, make calls, take photo, send text, play music in my bmw via the ipod kit and get handy when I need to quickly find some reference using google. Let's not forger that during all the browser wars (CSS, Active X, Javascript, DHTML etc...) Flash is the only media that is truly cross OS and browser compatible.
The whole support and performance bullcrap has a specific reason behind. For one, Apple is being lazy to develop real and powerful operating system to support current technologies without compromising the size and power usage of the device. Flash is desktop application and it does not perform well on small devices just like any other technology. You all forgot about QTVR ? Come on, it's a Apple's native format and yet it's not supported on iphone and ipad. Why? Because it's resource hogging and power hungry... means really bad engineering on Apple's side.
Secondly, and most important, (let me quote here) "you need to remember that Apple is a company that enjoys total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on, so allowing Flash ? which is a development platform of its own ? would just be too dangerous as it would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store. There is a reason why Apple desperately forces Flash out. And it's not technical as they often claim, it's simply pure profit greed."
Dear alkrantz
For all the people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on ? Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works across multiple browser
feel like making comments if someone even try to compare HTML5 to Flash - it's obvious, he/she simply know very little
about either one ....
HTML 5 is a neat idea and may be friendly for video delivery, simple animations and those who don't know Flash, but how long (if ever) will it be before it can do everything Flash can? What will Flash be able to do by then? Adobe?s not going anywhere and their device penetration is only growing bigger with each day.
I will continue to enjoy my bookPro and iMacs but I will say Thank You and No Thank You to iPad for now. I don't consider Ultimate Surfing Experience while surfing 20% of the 80% of not supported internet sites.
regards
Monika Oga
Great post.
If they don't their competitors will.
Businesses aren't in place to promote Adobe Flash, they are there to promote themselves and their products.
Not having your products delivered to consumers is no way to run a business.
If I was making a site and it wasn't accessible to everyone, I'd find another developer one who isn't going to overcharge in order to recoup the cost of Adobe's development tools.
Why is Adobe still using Carbon to develop Flash for OSX the writing was on the wall years ago that Cocoa will be the development tool for OSX, is it Apples fault that Adobe deliberately chose to ignore Cocoa?
Adobe has to fix their shit, then they might get a look in.
Lazy...
Lazy...
Lazy...
Too bad HTML5 can't do even 1% of what can be done with Flash. As soon as whatever eventually does do what Flash can do, we will all be happy to embrace it. Until then you will need to code two versions of everything, that is if you want real interactive multimedia. Of course if you just want the lowest common denominator then HTML/CSS/JS works, sort of. But who is really ever satisfied with the lowest common denominator?
Javascript is good and all, but if you don't have an intuitive development environment to work in it makes it really difficult to be productive. Someone needs to deliver the authoring software for that platform before it will become as ubiquitous as Flash.
By the way I have this nice tip for dealing with Click2Flash blocks.
Put your Flash in a div with a background image of the poster-image for your Flash. That way even though the Flash is blocked the user can see what the still image looks like. This serves two purposes. One, they might like what they see and click on it, and two, it makes the page look artistically balanced instead of an ugly gray box.
<div id="pageImageDiv" style="width:567px; height:296px; background:url(images/poster.jpg); background-repeat:no-repeat;">
<script type="text/javascript">
AC_FL_RunContent( 'codebase' ...
//the rest of your loading script here
HTML5 does everything people care about, like video and simple animations.
Flash is getting replaced, accept it.
If businesses want consumers who own iPhones and iPads to visit their sites they will provide alternatives.
If they don't their competitors will.
Businesses aren't in place to promote Adobe Flash, they are there to promote themselves and their products.
Not having your products delivered to consumers is no way to run a business.
If I was making a site and it wasn't accessible to everyone, I'd find another developer one who isn't going to overcharge in order to recoup the cost of Adobe's development tools.
Why is Adobe still using Carbon to develop Flash for OSX the writing was on the wall years ago that Cocoa will be the development tool for OSX, is it Apples fault that Adobe deliberately chose to ignore Cocoa?
Adobe has to fix their shit, then they might get a look in.
Lazy...
Lazy...
Lazy...
It sounds like you're the lazy one and has done little to no research on the next version of CS5.
Quit bitching, start reading other articles than AI and comics and get with the program or be left behind. Just like Apple, Adobe decided to make it Intel only.
Article Title
Adobe CS5 on Mac to be Intel-only, Cocoa, 64-bit native
http://cs5.org/?p=172
HTML5 does everything people care about, like video and simple animations.
Flash is getting replaced, accept it.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Read post 42 by Kolchak.
His/Her quote is exactly right for most computer users that don't post on forums (the average user).
"No, Apple has not given people choice. Most users don't know what Flash is and they don't know that the iPad won't support it. But you'll almost certainly hear a lot of complaints when people receive their iPads and start seeing a lot of "missing plugin" symbols that they can't do anything about on various websites, including the New York Times. Somehow, I doubt the Times is going to go back and re-code all of their interactive features from the last decade to use HTML5.".
Could not agree with you more alkrantz.
Before I go one, let me just say that I came across this site minutes ago, while googling around, doing some read on Conde Nast. Found the forum and this is the first thread I came across, seem like lots of arrogance and fanboys in here, statements about technology they obviously know very little about.
Crashes, lazy, old technology.... ?
I don't quite understand that tho, just because we all are Apple products enthusiast, does not mean we need to worship everything Apple does or say. They do have problems and the more we demand and complain, the more the product will be refined to please the clients needs and meet popular demand. Yet Instead, many choose to play Steve's song and blindly disregard Flash and its place on the web arena. Really silly.... biased and narrow minded.
I have been using Flash happily on my Mac for 8 years now. I have design using Flash and surf Flash and I never had any problems with it. I have two iPhones but I would never use it to surf web so I don't care about Flash support. Excuse me but the idea of constantly pinching, scrolling and reading on a 480-by-320-pixel screen is not my idea of surfing. iphone does what it does, play games, make calls, take photo, send text, play music in my bmw via the ipod kit and get handy when I need to quickly find some reference using google. Let's not forger that during all the browser wars (CSS, Active X, Javascript, DHTML etc...) Flash is the only media that is truly cross OS and browser compatible.
The whole support and performance bullcrap has a specific reason behind. For one, Apple is being lazy to develop real and powerful operating system to support current technologies without compromising the size and power usage of the device. Flash is desktop application and it does not perform well on small devices just like any other technology. You all forgot about QTVR ? Come on, it's a Apple's native format and yet it's not supported on iphone and ipad. Why? Because it's resource hogging and power hungry... means really bad engineering on Apple's side.
Secondly, and most important, (let me quote here) "you need to remember that Apple is a company that enjoys total dominance over its hardware and the software that runs on, so allowing Flash — which is a development platform of its own — would just be too dangerous as it would divert business from the App Store, as well as enable publishers to distribute music, videos and movies that could compete with the iTunes Store. There is a reason why Apple desperately forces Flash out. And it's not technical as they often claim, it's simply pure profit greed."
Dear alkrantz
For all the people who think HTML5 and Javascript will replace Flash, I say bring it on – Go on write a rich, entertaining and secure online gambling game in JQuery that works across multiple browser
feel like making comments if someone even try to compare HTML5 to Flash - it's obvious, he/she simply know very little
about either one ....
HTML 5 is a neat idea and may be friendly for video delivery, simple animations and those who don't know Flash, but how long (if ever) will it be before it can do everything Flash can? What will Flash be able to do by then? Adobe’s not going anywhere and their device penetration is only growing bigger with each day.
I will continue to enjoy my bookPro and iMacs but I will say Thank You and No Thank You to iPad for now. I don't consider Ultimate Surfing Experience while surfing 20% of the 80% of not supported internet sites.
regards
Monika Oga
You have no clue what you are talking about.
Want to see what HTML5 can do? Go to: http://www.apple.com/webapps/
I find it funny that you call Flash secure.
Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Read post 42 by Kolchak.
His/Her quote is exactly right for most computer users that don't post on forums (the average user).
"No, Apple has not given people choice. Most users don't know what Flash is and they don't know that the iPad won't support it. But you'll almost certainly hear a lot of complaints when people receive their iPads and start seeing a lot of "missing plugin" symbols that they can't do anything about on various websites, including the New York Times. Somehow, I doubt the Times is going to go back and re-code all of their interactive features from the last decade to use HTML5.".
What I said is fact. Apple haters like you can?t argue with that.
But what is your evidence ? I mean actual evidence, not just "doesn't it make sense that?" ?that Apple wouldn't cooperate, rather than Adobe just refused to put in the coding hours? You talk about not drinking the cool aid, so where is your evidence? (I mean quotes, discussions with Adobe coders or management, or Apple coders etc.)
edit: my bet btw is that you just pass silently over this question of evidence.
Hmmmm. Now, before you posted THIS question, did it ever occur to you to ask yourself the SAME EXACT THING? What evidence points to Adobe being incompetent at programming for osx!?
The only evidence people can point to is hear-say from Adobe employees who say Apple doesn?t cooperate with Adobe in making the Flash Player run better on OSX.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...-update1-.html
http://www.itpro.co.uk/620155/adobe-...flash-off-ipad
http://www.techradar.com/news/comput...support-668576
Now reading those articles you've got two sides to the argument: Apple who says Adobe just doesn't care, and they programmed flash for OSX lazily and horribly, and you've got Adobe who says Apple didn't provide enough cooperation to get flash running as well as Microsoft did which is why it runs so much better in Windows.
Here's what we know and how I deduce my conclusion:
Irrespective of anything else, Flash is philosophically wrong. The last thing the consumer wants is to be locked into proprietary technologies on the web. And before you try to draw parallels with Apples technologies, it's a bit different, none of Apples proprietary technologies make up the fundamental fabric of the web.
If society gets locked into Flash we could have another Microsoft situation with all the technical regression that goes hand in hand.
Long term Flash is VERY bad for everyone bar Adobe.
Well I kind of agree, but I kind of disagree too. Flash has competition, and so long as it all works correctly, consumers could care less what technology is used. People understand what Flash is because it was dominant for so long, and right now popular sites like Hulu depend on it.
When I said I was Joe Consumer and I wanted more flash sites, I'm saying exactly what any person would say when it comes to interactive sites. It may not need to be flash exactly, but having nothing at all is definitely not what people want.
I'm actually pretty pissed with and critical of Apple at the mo on a number of fronts
ok sorry i said u drank the koolaid lol
What I said is fact. Apple haters like you can?t argue with that.
Why are people deemed Apple haters over this issue?!
Why aren't you calling them Adobe lovers?
You have no clue what you are talking about.
Want to see what HTML5 can do? Go to: http://www.apple.com/webapps/
I find it funny that you call Flash secure.
Thank you very much CIM for the time to reply my post.
I can now rest my case
You have just demonstrated why Flash is so ahead of the html5
Thank you
HTML5 does everything people care about, like video and simple animations.
Flash is getting replaced, accept it.
Wow you must be one heck of a talented developer, programmer, designer. How profound is your insight into all things people care about on the Internet. I'm so unworthy.
If businesses want consumers who own iPhones and iPads to visit their sites they will provide alternatives.
If they don't their competitors will.
Businesses aren't in place to promote Adobe Flash, they are there to promote themselves and their products.
Not having your products delivered to consumers is no way to run a business.
If I was making a site and it wasn't accessible to everyone, I'd find another developer one who isn't going to overcharge in order to recoup the cost of Adobe's development tools.
The iPhone is now three years old and has never supported Flash. If it's absolutely essential for companies to support the iPhone, why haven't companies left and right dropped their Flash websites in favor of HTML over the last three years?
Apple isn't keeping Flash from the iPad or iPhone for performance reasons. If all they cared about was performance they would work with Adobe to make it better.
The performance of Flash on a Mac is unrelated to the strategic decision Apple is making. That is not to say it is irrelevant, but let's be clear about whats actually happening here.
Apple isn't keeping Flash from the iPhone and iPad as the result of some altruistic belief that the web should be open source.
Apple has never been a proponent of being open source. In fact, they have alway propagated an entirely closed eco-system and it has worked well for them.
Witholding Flash is a strategic business decision and one which for the moment Apple shareholders should applaud.
The be more specific, what is actually happening is this:
Flash can provide the same degree of interactivity over the web as an overwhelming majority of the apps in the apps store.
The app store is the single largest selling point for Apple mobile products and the largest differentiator from it's competition. (in my opinion)
If Flash were allowed on Apples mobile product line, it would severely impact the app store value proposition because the vast majority of what is available in the app store would be available online for free.
There are millions of Flash developers, some of them are amazing and some of them are terrible.
Many of the problems related to terrible CPU usage are a result of poor programming and not the Flash plug-in itself. This is not to say Flash on the mac is without problems. But it is true that a great deal of these problems are the result of poor programming. This is a problem that occurs with ANY popular platform and is present in every programming environment today.
We see bad PC apps just like we see bad Flash apps, just like we see CPU intensive JS and so on. None of these technologies are inherently bad, but the more popular they are, the more likely they are to be misused. Furthermore, the same programmers who create crappy code now will move to what ever is next and do the same thing. This is not a new phenomenon.
From Apples perspective, while it is true that terrible interactive flash causes problems and reduces Apples ability to quality control the iPhone environment, they don't actually care about that. Any of us who own an iPhone know that there are a ton of apps in the app store that perform horribly and crash all the time. Apple does not remove them. Because the more apps there are in the app store, the more apps Apple can SAY there are. And THAT sells iPhones.
Putting Flash on the iPhone will directly impact the app store, reduce it sales, and reduce the viability of the app store product model.
Read that last sentence again guys. because THAT IS EXACTLY WHY Flash is not on the iPhone. It is also why phone manufacturers that have struggled to create an app store experience similar to the iPhone will adopt Flash in an attempt to cash in on the rush of Flash developers who have a ton of experience creating games online and are craving to port those games to a mobile environment.
I believe that Flash 10.1 will see a proliferation of Flash on mobile and as a result Apple will eventually adopt Flash as well with some kind of "Adobe finally got its act together" speech. But until that point, they really have no reason to. In fact, it would be a bad strategic business decision.
The basic premise is that Apple wants to have as much control as they possibly can and capture as many customers in a closed environmental product loop as they can. This is exactly the same strategy that Microsoft employs and it will not change until market forces require it to be so.
The Apple vs Flash debate is smart business for Apple. If I had any of their stock I would be happy about it. I don't, so I will probably pass on the iPad for now.