Apple to disrupt notebook space with radically redesigned MacBook Pros

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Comments

  • cyberoidcyberoid Posts: 17member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    HiDPI mode? It's already in OS X, so I'd imagine so.



    Stopped reading right there.



    Come off it.



    1. How does one invoke HiDPI? I need to see this for myself. No Air owner I know has detected a way to enlarge system type, only screen type -- and then only awkwardly, with multiple commands often for a single browser page, the entire barrage having to be repeated for each subsequent page. If that's what you mean, no, it's not a solution.



    2. You have to be kidding if you think these "100-new feature!" versions of Mac OSX made more compatible with iOS do more than (a) offer more developer-dictated futzing in return for diminished real user control and (b) make users more dependent on Apple Inc. for basic services, free for now but obviously just waiting to be monetized -- once the customers are path-determined not to change vendors -- and make third-party developed applications and content less accessible or more expensive via Apple Store/iTunes?



    Why with such revolutionary hardware at hand -- thank you, Apple, it's much appreciated, seriously -- would Apple saddle us and suboptimize its new machines' performance with a version of a last-generation OS gummed up with iOS behavioral models? Apple's Hardware and Software divisions should talk to one another more often, and resist Marketing's pleas that their real audience should be digital device users. Yes, it's market logic. But maybe Apple will benefit more in the long run by following insanely-great-computing logic.
  • mimacmimac Posts: 861member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mcarling View Post


    Going forward, all Apple laptop RAM will be fixed on the motherboard, just like with the MacBook Air. Apple have been leaving too much money on the table with people buying the minimum RAM configuration and then loading up with third party RAM.



    And there is exactly why Apple should leave RAM upgradees to the purchaser. Having a completely closed machine with no user access to RAM or battery makes for a much more expensive and frustrating user upgrade path. Not a good thing.
  • gyorpbgyorpb Posts: 92member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    See? *sigh* ?I'm starting to think that both names might be dead. Seriously. It gives them a LOT of leeway to ignore "pro" features.



    One product: MacBook.



    Four sizes: 11", 13", 15", 17".



    No discrete graphics, no Ethernet port, two Thunderbolt ports, two USB ports, in/out audio in a single port, and, yeah, room for two of those SSD sticks (not standard size drives) in the 15" and 17" models.



    Starts with 4GB of RAM, 8 and 16GB BTO.



    It's possible, and with Apple, anything can happen. But I doubt they'll go that way.



    The MacBook Air cuts corners. Even Apple realise that, although they managed to pull off cuting corners without hurting sales. (Quite the contrary!)



    But for a Pro laptop (which is still a very popular product), that just isn't acceptable.



    Optical drives are gone, that's pretty much a given. Form factor will be thinner, whether tapered or not remains to be seen. But there will probably be a healthy complement of ports: USB, Thunderbolt, audio, of course, but also: Ethernet is required for business users that shun wireless networking, FireWire 800 is widely used in pro audio and video markets and Thunderbolt adapters are too slow to market to offer a viable replacement. I hold out hope for the ExpressCard slot on the 17", but mostly because I have an ExpressCard 3G modem. I fear that'll be out, even though there should be plenty of room for it.



    Internally, removing the optical drive will make room for more design freedom. Perhaps the cooling design can be improved so the Pro's can operate on a single fan. mSATA SSD card for the system drive, and a 2.5" drive bay (perhaps 1.8" on a 13" model or even across the board) for secondary SSD or HDD storage. SO-DIMM memory, slightly larger battery.



    That's my prediction.



    .tsooJ
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gyorpb View Post


    The MacBook Air cuts corners.



    In what way?
  • gyorpbgyorpb Posts: 92member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    In what way?



    Connectivity, processing power, screen real estate, battery life.



    .tsooJ
  • solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gyorpb View Post


    Connectivity, processing power, screen real estate, battery life.



    .tsooJ



    That's called engineering. Those CULV processors cost about as much as the the standard notebook processors used in the MBPs that cost about as much as the desktop processors used in the iMacs.



    To cut corners is to do something the cheapest or easiest way. That does not define using a milled bottom and top casing, using an alkali-aluminosilicate sheet glass on the display and trackpad, using a lithium-ion polumer batteries that are designed in-house, or any of the other aspects of the MBAs. If you want a system that cuts corners there are plenty of $400 notebooks out there.
  • gyorpbgyorpb Posts: 92member
    Whatever blows your skirt up.



    .tsooJ
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,348member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gyorpb View Post


    Connectivity, processing power, screen real estate, battery life.



    .tsooJ



    This is really silly. These are design choices much like those made on the macbook pro, imac, or mac pro. Not everyone likes them, but they're conscious choices. The macbook pro still exists if you require a laptop. The mac pro still exists. Apple's pricing relative to what you get back in performance is pretty high regardless. Only a few industries that are really reliant on power have stuck with Apple as their primary machine choice. If you really need every bit of power possible in a laptop the choice should be obvious anyway. It's either the 15" or a Lenovo running Linux.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post


    That's called engineering. Those CULV processors cost about as much as the the standard notebook processors used in the MBPs that cost about as much as the desktop processors used in the iMacs.



    To cut corners is to do something the cheapest or easiest way. That does not define using a milled bottom and top casing, using an alkali-aluminosilicate sheet glass on the display and trackpad, using a lithium-ion polumer batteries that are designed in-house, or any of the other aspects of the MBAs. If you want a system that cuts corners there are plenty of $400 notebooks out there.



    That's the difference between engineering something to be compact, yet as powerful as possible within a defined space, and engineering something with the goal of cost effectiveness in mind where smaller display panels and things contribute to the goal of cost minimization. You're paying more for higher performance per cubic inch, ounce, and watt.
  • wizard69wizard69 Posts: 11,320member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cyberoid View Post


    I'm all for the new MacBook Pros, having now owned simultaneously a Pro and and Air and wished for the longest time I could combine their features. Hooray that Apple is doing so. My only concerns are two:



    There is no realistic way to combine the features of the two machines. The problem is clear, there is no way to get top of the line performance out of an AIRs chassis.

    Quote:

    1. Will Apple's new machines permit users to autonomously set the size of system typefaces? I'm sitting here at my Air and swear the type is no more than 4 points large, which means I have to put on my reading glasses and turn up the brightness to max.



    support for resolution independence is being built into Mac OS. How it will be realized on hardware is a different question.

    Quote:

    2. For such great hardware, why saddle us with trash software like Lion and Mountain Lion (which, from what I've read here, merely exacerbates the things that Mac computer users most dislike about iOS applied to anything other than mobile devices?



    That statement is asinine. Many of us very much like the direction Apple is taking here, in many cases it makes moving from your mobile device to your Mac transparent. This has been done without harming Mac OS/X one bit. In some places we actually are getting vastly improved functionality.

    Quote:

    Why not take this opportunity to come up with something truly novel and exciting, on the order of OS 9 or Snow Leopard when they were introduced?



    You do realize Snow Leopard delivered the underlying technology to deliver the functionality we are now seeing.

    Quote:

    Fix those, this longtime user is once again a happy camper. Then bring on the new MacBook Pros!



    I really doubt that! Happiness requires a bit of objectivity, that seems to be a problem in your case. Seriously look at the improvements in Lion with an open mind,
  • This is what I think is going to happen to the Macbook Pro 2012.



    1. The optical disk drive is going to be gone. There is no question about this one because of what is written in this article:

    ("They're all going to look like MacBook Airs," one person familiar with the new MacBook Pro designs told AppleInsider.)



    2. At this time, technology is not available to make a Macbook Air be as equal or powerful as a Macbook Pro, because it is simply too thin. A Macbook Air would require an ultra low voltage cpu while a Macbook Pro would use a standard voltage cpu. With the optical disk drive removed, Apple would certainly be able to make the 2012 Macbook Pro be more thinner and lightweight, but not as thin as a Macbook Air.



    This means 2 things will possibly happen:

    A. A thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, with no ODD, dedicated graphics, and a standard voltage cpu, could eliminate the need for the Macbook Air. Therefore, there will be no more Macbook Air, only the Macbook Pro.



    B. Apple refreshes the 2012 Macbook Air with an ultra low voltage cpu, Intel integrated graphics, and flash storage, along with the redesigned 2012 Macbook Pro (no ODD, dedicated graphics, standard voltage cpu, Retina Display.



    Therefore, there will be no merging between the Macbook Air and the Macbook Pro. Either Apple makes a thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, and removes the Macbook Air. Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, and keeps the Macbook Air.
  • mcarlingmcarling Posts: 1,056member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Starts with 4GB of RAM, 8 and 16GB BTO.



    I expect all Mac laptops introduced in 2012 to come standard with 4GB of RAM directly on the motherboard using 2Gbit chips and most of them to offer an 8GB BTO option using 4Gbit chips. I think we'll probably have to wait until 2013 for 8Gb DRAM chips and the option of 16MB on the motherboard -- though it's possible that Apple might offer 8GB standard and a 16GB BTO option on the 17" model by using 32 rather than 16 memory chips.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MiMac View Post


    And there is exactly why Apple should leave RAM upgradees to the purchaser. Having a completely closed machine with no user access to RAM or battery makes for a much more expensive and frustrating user upgrade path. Not a good thing.



    I don't see anyone complaining anymore about iPhones and iPads not having user upgradable memory or user-replacable batteries. One of my best friends swore he would never buy a phone that didn't have a user-replaceable battery and promptly bought the first iPhone the week it first became available. The MacBook Air hasn't suffered in sales for lack of user-replaceable memory.



    I buy a new iPhone, iPad, and Mac laptop every year. I'm as likely to want to upgrade my laptop's memory after using it (something I last did in 2006) as I am likely to want to rebuild my car's engine (something I did decades ago). In the 21st century, user-serviceable products are an anachronism.
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 39,469member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlphaNOmega4ever View Post


    1. The optical disk drive is going to be gone. There is no question about this one because of what is written in this article:

    ("They're all going to look like MacBook Airs," one person familiar with the new MacBook Pro designs told AppleInsider.)



    Well, we don't actually know this, but I agree with you on it.



    Quote:

    2. At this time, technology is not available to make a Macbook Air be as equal or powerful as a Macbook Pro, because it is simply too thin.



    Well, that and the fact that they use completely different chips…



    Quote:

    With the optical disk drive removed, Apple would certainly be able to make the 2012 Macbook Pro be more thinner and lightweight, but not as thin as a Macbook Air.



    Nor SHOULD they.



    Quote:

    A. A thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, with no ODD, dedicated graphics, and a standard voltage cpu, could eliminate the need for the Macbook Air.



    "Could", but won't. People love the MacBook Air.



    Quote:

    …Retina Display.



    Not in a laptop! Not for another two years!



    Quote:

    Therefore, there will be no merging between the Macbook Air and the Macbook Pro.



    Sure there will.



    Quote:

    Either Apple makes a thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, and removes the Macbook Air.



    Again, that's nonsense.



    Quote:

    Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter Macbook Pro, and keeps the Macbook Air.



    Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter MacBook Pro and renames both models to "MacBook". One family, one name.
  • gyorpbgyorpb Posts: 92member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    People love the MacBook Air.



    Indeed they do. But that doesn't mean there isn't also a large market for a more elaborately spec'ed macBook Pro.



    .tsooJ
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 39,469member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gyorpb View Post


    Indeed they do. But that doesn't mean there isn't also a large market for a more elaborately spec'ed macBook Pro.



    Nor did I claim there wasn't! What he said was a little vague, but it can be interpreted two ways:



    1. 'kill the MacBook Air' means 'stop selling the 11" and 13" MacBook Air in favor of just the 13", 15", and 17" MacBook Pro in a thinner, Air-like format'.



    And that's nonsense.



    2. 'kill the MacBook Air' means 'stop selling the 11" and 13" MacBook Air in favor of a new 11" MacBook Pro alongside the 13", 15", and 17" models in a thinner, Air-like format'.



    Which ALSO makes no sense because? well, plenty of obvious reasons, the first of which being 'that's exactly the same as keeping the Air around'.



    Here's what I see happening:



    MacBook Air name: Dead

    MacBook Pro name: Dead



    One name: MacBook.

    Four sizes: 11", 13", 15", 17".



    Thinner, like the Air is now.

    No optical drives across the board.

    The two sizes of MacBook Air that exist now stick around exactly as they are, but with Ivy Bridge and updated graphics and other specs.

    The 13" MacBook Pro is killed off entirely.

    The 15" MacBook Pro starts with dedicated graphics and the 17" obviously also has them.

    Standard AIR SSD sticks in the 11" and 13". Still HDDs in the 15" and 17". Obviously SSD options, but those're also 2.5" drives.



    I think that's all entirely realistic. Apple CAN'T go to Air SSD sticks for all models because of the price of the sticks and the fact that the storage is so pathetic you'd have more people jump ship to Windows than if the Mac Pro was killed off.



    Unless there has been some sort of revolution in NAND chips recently. One of the other mods whose name starts with M (can't remember which) mentioned they're working (or already had) chips that jammed a terabyte of storage into the size of a postage stamp.



    I have no idea how much those cost, but it sounds like that if those exist, having a stick comprised of FOUR chips of 250 GB each (or even 200 GB each. Or a stick of two chips of 200, even?) would be much cheaper than a single terabyte chip. As for how expensive those would be, I don't know, but the amount of storage in the Air is unacceptable to be put in the 15" and 17", and Apple knows they can't just jack the price of the 15" and 17" up by $1,000 each in exchange for larger SSD stick capacities.
  • hmmhmm Posts: 3,348member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    There is no realistic way to combine the features of the two machines. The problem is clear, there is no way to get top of the line performance out of an AIRs chassis.



    support for resolution independence is being built into Mac OS. How it will be realized on hardware is a different question.



    That statement is asinine. Many of us very much like the direction Apple is taking here, in many cases it makes moving from your mobile device to your Mac transparent. This has been done without harming Mac OS/X one bit. In some places we actually are getting vastly improved functionality.



    You do realize Snow Leopard delivered the underlying technology to deliver the functionality we are now seeing.





    I really doubt that! Happiness requires a bit of objectivity, that seems to be a problem in your case. Seriously look at the improvements in Lion with an open mind,



    I avoided Lion because of some unresolved bugs with things that I use. If I update to a new Mac in a couple months, then I will be using Lion. It always takes some time for everything I require to be functional with a new OS. Typically it's around three months. This time it still hasn't happened entirely, but SL is working fine so I'm not terribly stressed on it. Your comment on how they can't combine the two is much like what I said about decisions in design. No company designs without any kind of compromise. They figure out their priorities when they make the device.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mcarling View Post




    I don't see anyone complaining anymore about iPhones and iPads not having user upgradable memory or user-replacable batteries. One of my best friends swore he would never buy a phone that didn't have a user-replaceable battery and promptly bought the first iPhone the week it first became available. The MacBook Air hasn't suffered in sales for lack of user-replaceable memory.



    Whether you own it or someone else does, people always talk about the longevity of macs. The loss of replaceable batteries can be annoying. Some of the ipods sucked on batteries. That battery needs to be viable for several years to justify it as not everyone wishes to bother with upgrading their phone on an annual basis. it's not that expensive to do the same with a laptop, but I hate dealing with wiping data and selling the old one. The point was that the batteries require a strong life expectancy to justify such a design decision. They shouldn't make the entire thing into a junk product. Looking at much earlier generations, batteries didn't last as long as they can today.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post




    One name: MacBook.

    Four sizes: 11", 13", 15", 17".



    Thinner, like the Air is now.

    No optical drives across the board.

    The two sizes of MacBook Air that exist now stick around exactly as they are, but with Ivy Bridge and updated graphics and other specs.

    The 13" MacBook Pro is killed off entirely.

    The 15" MacBook Pro starts with dedicated graphics and the 17" obviously also has them.

    Standard AIR SSD sticks in the 11" and 13". Still HDDs in the 15" and 17". Obviously SSD options, but those're also 2.5" drives.



    I think that's all entirely realistic. Apple CAN'T go to Air SSD sticks for all models because of the price of the sticks and the fact that the storage is so pathetic you'd have more people jump ship to Windows than if the Mac Pro was killed off.



    Unless there has been some sort of revolution in NAND chips recently. One of the other mods whose name starts with M (can't remember which) mentioned they're working (or already had) chips that jammed a terabyte of storage into the size of a postage stamp.



    I have no idea how much those cost, but it sounds like that if those exist, having a stick comprised of FOUR chips of 250 GB each (or even 200 GB each. Or a stick of two chips of 200, even?) would be much cheaper than a single terabyte chip. As for how expensive those would be, I don't know, but the amount of storage in the Air is unacceptable to be put in the 15" and 17", and Apple knows they can't just jack the price of the 15" and 17" up by $1,000 each in exchange for larger SSD stick capacities.



    They do trend toward these screen sizes overall. I think if the ipad becomes more self sufficient it "may" cannibalize the 11" in the longer term. That would be a long way off. I'm glad you actually have some sane concept of this stuff. Putting in stick ssds without losing a lot of capacity would be incredibly expensive, and you're right, it would cause a lot of people to wait it out for one or more cycles beyond their intended purchase.
  • Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter MacBook Pro and renames both models to "MacBook". One family, one name.[/QUOTE]



    You said, "both models". Are you saying that Apple is going to keep both models, the Air and the Pro and rename them both to Macbook. Or, are you saying that Apple will merge the Air and the Pro together, to be named Macbook?
  • Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Or Apple makes a thinner, lighter MacBook Pro and renames both models to "MacBook". One family, one name.





    You said, "both models". Are you saying that Apple is going to keep both models, the Air and the Pro and rename them both to Macbook. Or, are you saying that Apple will merge the Air and the Pro together, to be named Macbook?
  • dhagan4755dhagan4755 Posts: 2,142member
    The MacBook Air & MacBook Pro names aren't going anywhere. There will be an 11-, 13-, and 15-inch MacBook Air. And there will be a 15- and 17-inch MacBook Pro. The differentiating features between the two lines will be as is it now: Thin & light — Air; Power (no pun intended)*—*Pro.



    It's clear the optical drive is a goner in the next MacBook Pro. This probably allows Apple to move the hard drive (still a hard drive or 2.5-inch SSD, no blade SSDs like the Air yet) to the front of the machine, in same general vicinity where the optical drive is in present MacBook Pros. Along with Apple's ability to design custom, non-removeable batteries, it will allow Apple to taper the design to make it similar stylistically to the Air. I think Apple is trying to use some of the Air's popularity as a halo on its Pro aesthetic.



    Now as far as removing the optical drive — this may seem obvious since Apple completely omitted it from the last revision of the Mac mini, however, I know a lot of people that still use it & think removing it is a bad idea. I say get rid of it. I hardly use my optical drive any more. And I'm sure whatever Apple does here may have implications on the next round of iMac and Mac Pro (god willing) updates.
  • mimacmimac Posts: 861member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mcarling View Post


    I don't see anyone complaining anymore about iPhones and iPads not having user upgradable memory or user-replacable batteries.



    Because they do not have a choice or say in the matter.



    Quote:

    One of my best friends swore he would never buy a phone that didn't have a user-replaceable battery and promptly bought the first iPhone the week it first became available.



    Good for him.



    Quote:

    I buy a new iPhone, iPad, and Mac laptop every year.



    Good for you. The majority do not.



    Quote:

    I'm as likely to want to upgrade my laptop's memory after using it (something I last did in 2006) as I am likely to want to rebuild my car's engine (something I did decades ago). In the 21st century, user-serviceable products are an anachronism.



    I note that you use "I" frequently. Apple build devices for the mass market. Exactly what you require in a device does not necessarily mean others want it. The majority of people won't or cannot afford to buy a new notebook every year so user upgrading RAM is very nice and a cheaper option. Same goes for battery when it will eventually reach EOL which in most cases will be long before the notebook has.
  • tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 39,469member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlphaNOmega4ever View Post


    You said, "both models". Are you saying that Apple is going to keep both models, the Air and the Pro and rename them both to Macbook. Or, are you saying that Apple will merge the Air and the Pro together, to be named Macbook?



    I'm trying to parse the difference between your options, and I'm not finding one.



    I'm saying that Apple will redesign the Pro to be more Air-like. In doing so, they will remove the need for the name "Air", and since calling ALL of the laptops they sell "Pro" seems silly (particularly when half wouldn't have dedicated graphics), I figure they'll either rename the entire line to just "MacBook" with four sizes or keep the Pro name for the 15" and 17" and call the two Air sizes just "MacBook".



    But the latter seems less Apple than the former.
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