I've been saying for nearly a decade that Apple could meet all of EU's rules by allowing iPhone and iPad users to install Android when they set up their device. There's no reason for iOS to support third party app stores if Apple supports Android for iPhones. There's your choice. How many iPhone users would install Android, maybe 1%?
Don't people already have that choice? They can go buy an Android phone, today. Why should Apple have to support its most direct competitor, and how does that benefit anyone except people who don't like Apple and want to see it ruined via government fiat?
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
Would you prefer that your carrier only connected to users that used the same carrier?
That should be a decision by the carrier and it would be up to the customer to decide if they liked the idea or not.
Not some fat, tax eating bureaucrat in Brussels. Dictating I might add, about the products developed by some one outside their jurisdiction.
the Little Red Hen was not meant to be an instruction manual for the other farm animals.
"We expect the consequences to be significant," said de Graaf at the time. "If you have an iPhone, you should be able to download apps not just from the App Store but from other app stores or from the internet."
The consequences of turning iOS into Windows will be significant but not in the manner that they like to promote to the public.
How about a better analogy; turning iOS into macOS. Because that would be completely crazy! 😉
It would be crazy. The major desktop operating systems were designed decades ago, before the Internet was in every home, before the mass proliferation of viruses and spam, before people were doing everything from banking to shopping to storing all their photos and correspondence on their computers. All the security of modern desktop operating systems has been bolted on to a 40-year-old foundation. If macOS was designed entirely from the ground up starting today, as a blank slate, it would be very different than it is today. I would love to be able to get all my software for my Mac from the App Store like I do on my iPhone and iPad. The only reason that's not going to happen is simply because macOS is old.
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
The point is that it's YOUR CHOICE that keeps you buying Apple products, and the quality of THEIR products.
Not the fact that they make it extremely difficult to choose a different manufacturer's product, even if their products progressively go to shit, because they make it impossible to export the data you've sunk into their services and use it on any other brand's devices.
Because at that point, you don't have a choice but to keep buying their products.
You have to realise that this doesn't apply just to Apple — it applies to ANY manufacturer who might invest less and less into building shittier and shittier products, while holding their customers hostage.
Okay, so why not force all car manufacturers to be compatible with each other, like using compatible infotainment systems, compatible tires, and compatible engines? Do you like to be consistent? Just asking.
Because no car on this planet offers storage for ANYTHING of yours that you cannot readily and easily remove and place in another car.
Any data you put in is either synched from your phone or on physical media/devices — and removed once you take the phone or the USB stick or the CD or whatever with you. Any possession you bring into the car can be taken out and placed in any other car, built by any other manufacturer on the planet.
This is NOT about components of the device. This is about what YOU bring into the device — YOUR DATA.
This legislature isn't forcing anyone to allow other manufacturers' engines, but about letting you actually take your luggage, your umbrella, and your phone back out of the car when you want to use a different car.
Incidentally, every tire I've ever bought would have worked on other brands' cars, as well, and every infotainment system I've used offered to work with regular radio stations and when it allowed me to connect my phone or iPod, I could still just take them with me when I left the car, and use them just like that in other manufacturers' cars, any time I wanted to.
I've been saying for nearly a decade that Apple could meet all of EU's rules by allowing iPhone and iPad users to install Android when they set up their device. There's no reason for iOS to support third party app stores if Apple supports Android for iPhones. There's your choice. How many iPhone users would install Android, maybe 1%?
Don't people already have that choice? They can go buy an Android phone, today. Why should Apple have to support its most direct competitor, and how does that benefit anyone except people who don't like Apple and want to see it ruined via government fiat?
That's not what 22july2013 means. He thinks that Apple can slyly skirt regulations by pointing to the fact that an alternative operating system can be installed on their hardware. As if regulators will magically be satisfied by something that no one will actually do and that doesn't achieve the goals they're aiming for.
It's a really thick headed point that he's been making for a long time, and everyone's complete rejection of it just makes him think that he's even more right, because he's a contrarian idiot.
When am I going to be allowed to bypass the “gatekeepers” at VW Group, BMW and Mercedes so I can install Apps of my choice in their infotainment systems? When are they going to force console makers like Nintendo, Sony and MS to open up to alternate stores.
Their “interoperability” argument is also bullshit. iPhones already “interoperate”. They would be useless if they didn’t. They use industry standards for cellular, WiFi and Bluetooth. You can browse any website you wish or exchange email with anyone. You can get any popular software you’d ever want to use on either platform.
Forcing 3rd party stores offers zero benefits for consumers (it actually causes harm) and only benefits a few large developers. Majority of developers will see no benefit. Pretty clear the EU is siding with a few greedy companies (Epic & Spotify) and are happy to fuck consumers over to help them.
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
Would you prefer that your carrier only connected to users that used the same carrier?
That should be a decision by the carrier and it would be up to the customer to decide if they liked the idea or not.
Not some fat, tax eating bureaucrat in Brussels. Dictating I might add, about the products developed by some one outside their jurisdiction.
the Little Red Hen was not meant to be an instruction manual for the other farm animals.
I agree, conditionally: your argument works when there is a functional market that allows entry to all interested participants.
Telecoms, especially, offer a relevant lesson from history. First we had a single large institution offering service within each country, and these institutions' priorities started to deviate from serving the customer to serving their own interests first. Government interference was required and by and large the experience for the customers improved after competition was stimulated. Then mobile phones appeared, and initially (in my country, Australia) you could only place a call from a mobile phone to a device connected to the same carrier network. Your phone number for landline or mobile was tied to the carrier and subject to their own portability rules. SMS used to be priced per message at what today we call ludicrously expensive costs. With broadband, xDSL remained the only offering for several years after better technologies were available - until the National Broadband Network was brought into being by the government to force the adoption of optic fibre. Once the telecommunications companies were forced to compete with new market entrants, the benefits to customers grew.
I believe there is a limit to what any of us can understand about our own behaviour and how it fits into the world around us. We all have a natural bias towards judging our own behaviour as better than those around us who differ from our beliefs. We can push those limits by gathering and analysing data as objectively as possible, doing our best to ignore our preconceptions. Sometimes, we can pull this off ourselves. Other times, relying on a third party (such as government) gives a better result because our vested interests hold less sway.
I have a concern that Apple, which has profited handsomely from the rules it set up around the iPhone, will have less motivation to deliver a superior experience to its customers once the various governments of the world enact the legislation they have been publicly discussing. I also worry that the legislation's faults will end up causing excessive harm. But overall, I know that standards are a good thing and that fostering competition along vectors where incumbents have lock-in leads to a better landscape in the future after a brief period of pain.
So I am hoping that these rules do improve competition and that Apple will accept that they've had an exceptionally good run and move on to the next big thing.
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
Would you prefer that your carrier only connected to users that used the same carrier?
That should be a decision by the carrier and it would be up to the customer to decide if they liked the idea or not.
Not some fat, tax eating bureaucrat in Brussels. Dictating I might add, about the products developed by some one outside their jurisdiction.
the Little Red Hen was not meant to be an instruction manual for the other farm animals.
They aren't dictating anything about the products being developed outside their jurisdiction. Apple can develop and manufacture anything they want outside the EU without any EU laws applying. But when they import it for sale in the EU, that's when EU law applies. Suck it up.
"We expect the consequences to be significant," said de Graaf at the time. "If you have an iPhone, you should be able to download apps not just from the App Store but from other app stores or from the internet."
The consequences of turning iOS into Windows will be significant but not in the manner that they like to promote to the public.
How about a better analogy; turning iOS into macOS. Because that would be completely crazy! 😉
It would be crazy. The major desktop operating systems were designed decades ago, before the Internet was in every home, before the mass proliferation of viruses and spam, before people were doing everything from banking to shopping to storing all their photos and correspondence on their computers. All the security of modern desktop operating systems has been bolted on to a 40-year-old foundation. If macOS was designed entirely from the ground up starting today, as a blank slate, it would be very different than it is today. I would love to be able to get all my software for my Mac from the App Store like I do on my iPhone and iPad. The only reason that's not going to happen is simply because macOS is old.
"We expect the consequences to be significant," said de Graaf at the time. "If you have an iPhone, you should be able to download apps not just from the App Store but from other app stores or from the internet."
The consequences of turning iOS into Windows will be significant but not in the manner that they like to promote to the public.
How about a better analogy; turning iOS into macOS. Because that would be completely crazy! 😉
It would be crazy. The major desktop operating systems were designed decades ago, before the Internet was in every home, before the mass proliferation of viruses and spam, before people were doing everything from banking to shopping to storing all their photos and correspondence on their computers. All the security of modern desktop operating systems has been bolted on to a 40-year-old foundation. If macOS was designed entirely from the ground up starting today, as a blank slate, it would be very different than it is today. I would love to be able to get all my software for my Mac from the App Store like I do on my iPhone and iPad. The only reason that's not going to happen is simply because macOS is old.
"We expect the consequences to be significant," said de Graaf at the time. "If you have an iPhone, you should be able to download apps not just from the App Store but from other app stores or from the internet."
The consequences of turning iOS into Windows will be significant but not in the manner that they like to promote to the public.
How about a better analogy; turning iOS into macOS. Because that would be completely crazy! 😉
It would be crazy. The major desktop operating systems were designed decades ago, before the Internet was in every home, before the mass proliferation of viruses and spam, before people were doing everything from banking to shopping to storing all their photos and correspondence on their computers. All the security of modern desktop operating systems has been bolted on to a 40-year-old foundation. If macOS was designed entirely from the ground up starting today, as a blank slate, it would be very different than it is today. I would love to be able to get all my software for my Mac from the App Store like I do on my iPhone and iPad. The only reason that's not going to happen is simply because macOS is old.
"We expect the consequences to be significant," said de Graaf at the time. "If you have an iPhone, you should be able to download apps not just from the App Store but from other app stores or from the internet."
The consequences of turning iOS into Windows will be significant but not in the manner that they like to promote to the public.
How about a better analogy; turning iOS into macOS. Because that would be completely crazy! 😉
It would be crazy. The major desktop operating systems were designed decades ago, before the Internet was in every home, before the mass proliferation of viruses and spam, before people were doing everything from banking to shopping to storing all their photos and correspondence on their computers. All the security of modern desktop operating systems has been bolted on to a 40-year-old foundation. If macOS was designed entirely from the ground up starting today, as a blank slate, it would be very different than it is today. I would love to be able to get all my software for my Mac from the App Store like I do on my iPhone and iPad. The only reason that's not going to happen is simply because macOS is old.
This “I like it so therefore everyone else need to also accept it”, is slightly arrogant.
If this was posted to me during an OPR, I’d ask for data and data why the fundamental problem couldn’t be solved by the OS?
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
How dare I be given options!
You do have options. If you want a phone that allows side loading get an android phone. See, that’s an options
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
How dare I be given options!
You do have options. If you want a phone that allows side loading get an android phone. See, that’s an options
Think of all of the technological innovation that could be worked on by engineers instead of having to deal with this crap that in the end does not benefit the user. Anyone who thinks the EU is out to help the consumer is delusional — this is all about power — look at us, we can demand that trillion $ companies do something and they will do it! They don’t believe in letting the market decide, because this would not require their oversight. No oversight = no status = no power.
Every nation state has laws that protect the consumer, because they have proven to be necessary time and time again. I fully expect to hear the ‘market decides’ bull from a desperate corporate executive protecting his job, or a bought-off-the-shelf politician, but no serious person believes that unfettered markets will operate for the benefit of all, (and without destroying our biosphere,) without steerage and intervention. No significant sector of the industrial economy of the US has been shaped without the intervention of the various arms of government, through investments in infrastructure, subsidies, tax breaks, education, R&D, the law, such as anti-trust law, tort law etc. not to mention trade agreements, alliances, and military interventions around the world. The EU is merely exercising the power that they have.
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
Would you prefer that your carrier only connected to users that used the same carrier?
That should be a decision by the carrier and it would be up to the customer to decide if they liked the idea or not.
Not some fat, tax eating bureaucrat in Brussels. Dictating I might add, about the products developed by some one outside their jurisdiction.
the Little Red Hen was not meant to be an instruction manual for the other farm animals.
They aren't dictating anything about the products being developed outside their jurisdiction. Apple can develop and manufacture anything they want outside the EU without any EU laws applying. But when they import it for sale in the EU, that's when EU law applies. Suck it up.
And Apple should take up that challenge, design Apple devices, especially for the EU, a series of base, close devices similar to game consoles.
Why does everything have to interoperate? I buy Apple products. I don’t buy Google things. I made a choice to buy Apple-only products. What business does the EU have telling me I have to use, or allow to use, other products? What product has the EU improved? None that I know of. They’re just doing a huge money grab.
How dare I be given options!
Fuck that, how dare I have to go to yet another store to buy another app that refuses to sell through the store I already use and be forced to give them my precious financial and personal details just so they can get hacked and get info on me, or at the very least, sell my private info so they can harangue me to buy things I neither need nor want.
That’s simple….stick w Apple. No way I will be going to Mexico to buy tacos. Plenty of tacos here in California
Comments
That is insightful, and a wonderful summary.
It's a really thick headed point that he's been making for a long time, and everyone's complete rejection of it just makes him think that he's even more right, because he's a contrarian idiot.
When am I going to be allowed to bypass the “gatekeepers” at VW Group, BMW and Mercedes so I can install Apps of my choice in their infotainment systems? When are they going to force console makers like Nintendo, Sony and MS to open up to alternate stores.
Their “interoperability” argument is also bullshit. iPhones already “interoperate”. They would be useless if they didn’t. They use industry standards for cellular, WiFi and Bluetooth. You can browse any website you wish or exchange email with anyone. You can get any popular software you’d ever want to use on either platform.
Forcing 3rd party stores offers zero benefits for consumers (it actually causes harm) and only benefits a few large developers. Majority of developers will see no benefit. Pretty clear the EU is siding with a few greedy companies (Epic & Spotify) and are happy to fuck consumers over to help them.
Telecoms, especially, offer a relevant lesson from history. First we had a single large institution offering service within each country, and these institutions' priorities started to deviate from serving the customer to serving their own interests first. Government interference was required and by and large the experience for the customers improved after competition was stimulated. Then mobile phones appeared, and initially (in my country, Australia) you could only place a call from a mobile phone to a device connected to the same carrier network. Your phone number for landline or mobile was tied to the carrier and subject to their own portability rules. SMS used to be priced per message at what today we call ludicrously expensive costs. With broadband, xDSL remained the only offering for several years after better technologies were available - until the National Broadband Network was brought into being by the government to force the adoption of optic fibre. Once the telecommunications companies were forced to compete with new market entrants, the benefits to customers grew.
I believe there is a limit to what any of us can understand about our own behaviour and how it fits into the world around us. We all have a natural bias towards judging our own behaviour as better than those around us who differ from our beliefs. We can push those limits by gathering and analysing data as objectively as possible, doing our best to ignore our preconceptions. Sometimes, we can pull this off ourselves. Other times, relying on a third party (such as government) gives a better result because our vested interests hold less sway.
I have a concern that Apple, which has profited handsomely from the rules it set up around the iPhone, will have less motivation to deliver a superior experience to its customers once the various governments of the world enact the legislation they have been publicly discussing. I also worry that the legislation's faults will end up causing excessive harm. But overall, I know that standards are a good thing and that fostering competition along vectors where incumbents have lock-in leads to a better landscape in the future after a brief period of pain.
So I am hoping that these rules do improve competition and that Apple will accept that they've had an exceptionally good run and move on to the next big thing.
Every nation state has laws that protect the consumer, because they have proven to be necessary time and time again. I fully expect to hear the ‘market decides’ bull from a desperate corporate executive protecting his job, or a bought-off-the-shelf politician, but no serious person believes that unfettered markets will operate for the benefit of all, (and without destroying our biosphere,) without steerage and intervention. No significant sector of the industrial economy of the US has been shaped without the intervention of the various arms of government, through investments in infrastructure, subsidies, tax breaks, education, R&D, the law, such as anti-trust law, tort law etc. not to mention trade agreements, alliances, and military interventions around the world. The EU is merely exercising the power that they have.
too.