I'm not talking about writing it form the ground up. I'm talking about conversion of existing drivers. It's one less thing to worry about.
At least you've taken a step back.
The point is that there are a number of costs involved in selling to the Mac market for any device. A company has to feel as though it can make a profit after they are all added in. It isn't any one of them that's the problem.
The point is that there are a number of costs involved in selling to the Mac market for any device. A company has to feel as though it can make a profit after they are all added in. It isn't any one of them that's the problem.
But it was actually a hardware issue for the Mac and Nvidia graphics when we were on PPC. When the Cards were x86 and we were on PPC they were a major pain to get working. But now if Apple allowed BIOS, and UEFI, and wrote the drivers I was speaking of earlier, SLI and Quadro, The cards would be plug and play for the most part because Apple writes their own blanket drivers for Nvidia cards. Nvidia just provides source code. They do not write the drivers.
Essentially it is about BIOS because all the good cards are BIOS. When Apple switched to UEFI booting cards they limited our selection. The cards are there. We don't have to worry about cards. What we need is the lock-down in "UEFI only" removed.
But it was actually a hardware issue for the Mac and Nvidia graphics when we were on PPC. When the Cards were x86 and we were on PPC they were a major pain to get working. But now if Apple allowed BIOS, and UEFI, and wrote the drivers I was speaking of earlier, SLI and Quadro, The cards would be plug and play for the most part because Apple writes their own blanket drivers for Nvidia cards. Nvidia just provides source code. They do not write the drivers.
Essentially it is about BIOS because all the good cards are BIOS. When Apple switched to UEFI booting cards they limited our selection. The cards are there. We don't have to worry about cards. What we need is the lock-down in UEFI only removed.
the point I'm trying to make is that whether it's BIOS or UEFI, it isn't THAT important.
Yes, of course Apple writes all the drivers and ROMS for its own cards. They've always done that, even when ATI's own software was so much more sophisticated for their own cards on the Mac.
You just have to look at that software to see that the BIOS?UEFI thing is only a small part of the puzzle. Apple writes basic drivers. They never allowed us to use the more sophisticated functions of the cards, or to adjust them, while ATI gave us numerous control features.
t's not just the bit if software, but the marketing as well that is expensive. It likely doesn't cost more than a few tens of thousands to write that UEFI or BIOS code.
And don't forget that the BIOS for Apple's machines is NOT the same as that for the various PC's out there. It's machine specific to a certain extent, in that Apple handles it's machines differently.
Again, we're talking about sales numbers. If Apple's machines garner enough sales, companies will look more seriously at the platform. Until then, they won't.
We'll also have to see what the result is with 64 bit VISTA when it supports UEFI. And I'd be curious to know which cards are being used in the UEFI Itanium Windows systems, becasue there are cards for that.
Exactly. Even before, similar PC cards in the same range could be flashed with the Mac BIOS to get them running, but that minimal blanket Mac driver wasn't enough to use on 75%+ of the cards, which was most of the good ones. If they did write a more extensive blanket Nvidia driver for Nvidia's cards the same rule should apply to broader spectrum of cards for us. But without the ability to boot BIOS would it even be possible to flash a BIOS card with UEFI firmware? That was my concern. I don't know if it's possible, and that will be the limitation. The predicament is still there. There is no SLI driver for someone interested in full SLI or an individual that wanted to purchase an Nvidia GeForce 8800x2. (highend enthusiast) The same goes for the Quadro. The Mac Quadro drivers are not the equivalent of the PC drivers because the PC drivers are specific for the card. The Mac drivers appear to be a blanket Geforce driver as far as I can tell. So maybe that explains my reasoning for thinking we should have a dual booting capable system for BIOS, and UEFI cards. Unless we can flash BIOS cards with UEFI firmware we are still in the dog house IMHO.
What would be the ultimate kick in the ass is if Apple gave us a flash utility posted on their website, or in our utilities folder that came with a list of PC cards that have been tested, and worked. That would put the Mac on the track to Graphics parity with PC's. I would bet that if they did that some (most) graphics card manufacturers would buy a Mac to do their own testing, and they would line up to offer the best available cards to us.
Although I do agree a second (real) desktop (not a workstation/server) should be in the Apple lineup. A Semi-Pro machine would increase the need for graphics cards by manufactures, and supply the demand to those who don't want, for whatever reason, or cant afford the Mac Pro.
Just flew in from MacRumors (and boy are my hands tired.. )
Seriously though, this thread is close to my heart, as I have personally contributed to over 100 posts in the Mac Pro Waiting Game thread over at MR. Many of us have been waiting so long, the thread, started in April, is up to over 1,200 posts and over 69,000 views.
I have been waiting for a long time for updated graphics options. The Inquirer rumor that suggests Apple is snarfing up all the Harpertowns ahead of everyone else is indeed encouraging. However, ThinkSecret today posted that new Macbooks (according to their "sources") would be the only hardware updated before the end of the year.
Anyhow, I, like many, would love to see an 8800GTX or GTS (640 meg) as the mid-range card, 2 gigs FB-DIMM standard, and a 500 gig hard drive standard, and of course all dual quad-core across the board. However, some folks like to rain on the parade by saying "The Mac Pro is a workstation. Buy a PC for gaming". That would have been true in the PPC/pre-BootCamp days. But now you can have your cake and eat it too. Who wants to pay the electric bill on multiple computers anyway when you can run multiple systems on one beautiful machine?
Looking at the Harpertown lineup, it looks to me that the sweet spot would be the E5472, which is a 2.8 Ghz quad-core chip running at 1600 MHz FSB but with only 80 watt TDP. So with a 60% thermal drop compared to most other 1600 FSB chips running at 120 watts, you could have your cake and eat it too.
I find it personally insulting that Apple hasn't budged on the Mac Pro's pricing since its inception. Heck, the iPhone got a price drop after five weeks! \ But I know the Mac Pro isn't their core business.
Still, it is almost obscene that Apple continues to charge $400.00US for an EOL'd Radeon x1900xt that is about two years old. So old that they need Foxconn to build them since ATI EOL'd them about 9 months ago. And $323 for a 500 gig hard drive?? You can get almost three of them for that price. But I digress.
Apple (and Steve) need to realize that, for these premium-priced workstations, it's about what WE want, not what Steve thinks we should have. Rip out those archaic graphics cards and give us something current.....from THIS year.
Anyhow, I'm glad I found another forum of hopeless hopefuls (tounge in cheek ) like myself who have been pining for an updated Mac Pro for a long time; people who refuse to pay 2006 prices for 2006 parts in the tail end of 2007!! $999 RAID card?? - not an update. Dual quad-core option?? - not an update - an option.
Just flew in from MacRumors (and boy are my hands tired.. )
Seriously though, this thread is close to my heart, as I have personally contributed to over 100 posts in the Mac Pro Waiting Game thread over at MR. Many of us have been waiting so long, the thread, started in April, is up to over 1,200 posts and over 69,000 views.
I have been waiting for a long time for updated graphics options. The Inquirer rumor that suggests Apple is snarfing up all the Harpertowns ahead of everyone else is indeed encouraging. However, ThinkSecret today posted that new Macbooks (according to their "sources") would be the only hardware updated before the end of the year.
Anyhow, I, like many, would love to see an 8800GTX or GTS (640 meg) as the mid-range card, 2 gigs FB-DIMM standard, and a 500 gig hard drive standard, and of course all dual quad-core across the board. However, some folks like to rain on the parade by saying "The Mac Pro is a workstation. Buy a PC for gaming". That would have been true in the PPC/pre-BootCamp days. But now you can have your cake and eat it too. Who wants to pay the electric bill on multiple computers anyway when you can run multiple systems on one beautiful machine?
Looking at the Harpertown lineup, it looks to me that the sweet spot would be the E5472, which is a 2.8 Ghz quad-core chip running at 1600 MHz FSB but with only 80 watt TDP. So with a 60% thermal drop compared to most other 1600 FSB chips running at 120 watts, you could have your cake and eat it too.
I find it personally insulting that Apple hasn't budged on the Mac Pro's pricing since its inception. Heck, the iPhone got a price drop after five weeks! \ But I know the Mac Pro isn't their core business.
Still, it is almost obscene that Apple continues to charge $400.00US for an EOL'd Radeon x1900xt that is about two years old. So old that they need Foxconn to build them since ATI EOL'd them about 9 months ago. And $323 for a 500 gig hard drive?? You can get almost three of them for that price. But I digress.
Apple (and Steve) need to realize that, for these premium-priced workstations, it's about what WE want, not what Steve thinks we should have. Rip out those archaic graphics cards and give us something current.....from THIS year.
Anyhow, I'm glad I found another forum of hopeless hopefuls (tounge in cheek ) like myself who have been pining for an updated Mac Pro for a long time; people who refuse to pay 2006 prices for 2006 parts in the tail end of 2007!! $999 RAID card?? - not an update. Dual quad-core option?? - not an update - an option.
-Wild Bill
Heh heh. You think so, do you? Well, good luck, we've been whining about these things for quite a while, and see where it got us?
While I have no knowledge about what's going to happen, I think that the memory issues might go that way, as DRAM prices are dropping drastically.
You also have to realize that Mac Pro pricing is not for a price sensitive market, for the most part. When I bought Powermacs for my own company, I never used price as a purchase concern. These aren't business machines, they are production machines, very different.
Well, just to add to the deafening din of whining...
Thinksecret expects no more hardware announcements after the Macbook/Leopard release.
It's a consumer Christmas? And no consumer tower to go with it. No tower update what-so-ever. That makes a year and a half without an Mac pro update (don't yell at me wit yer 8-core drop in at the top...)
You also have to realize that Mac Pro pricing is not for a price sensitive market, for the most part.
If we agree that it's a workstation. And not the elusive consumer tower. Then Apple are competitive apart from a lame amount of ram, micro-penile hard drive and an embarrassingly out of date gpu. But hey, the 8 core aspect of it is good. Just buy your ram, hard drive, gpu (oh, I can't do that...) from vendors other than Apple...(or Dell...)
Well, just to add to the deafening din of whining...
Thinksecret expects no more hardware announcements after the Macbook/Leopard release.
It's a consumer Christmas? And no consumer tower to go with it. No tower update what-so-ever. That makes a year and a half without an Mac pro update (don't yell at me wit yer 8-core drop in at the top...)
Meh.
Merry Christmas.
Lemon Bon Bon.
What new products should Apple come out with?
The new chips probably won't be available in any numbers until close to New Year's.
Apple probably is designing new machines around those new chips.
You want Apple to come out with new machines two months before Macworld? Then you expect another design-around then?
I don't.
I don't even understand why Apple would come out with a new MB now. Where does that leave it in January when the other new machines will presumably come out? With old chips?
If we agree that it's a workstation. And not the elusive consumer tower. Then Apple are competitive apart from a lame amount of ram, micro-penile hard drive and an embarrassingly out of date gpu. But hey, the 8 core aspect of it is good. Just buy your ram, hard drive, gpu (oh, I can't do that...) from vendors other than Apple...(or Dell...)
Flails stick around...
Lemon Bon Bon.
You can't buy a graphics card anywhere else, unless ATI comes out with one. But, you can certainly buy the other items, as well a a lot of cards for other purposes.
The consumer Xmas is a rational expectation. But, the MacBook and Mac Book Pro are in mid product cycle. The only Mac ready for an update is the Mac Pro, or a new product announcement.
I don't believe rumors. I go with evidence. And the evidence says to me that there will be something, but it wont be a Laptop that we have seen before. Either the long awaited desktop, or a maybe the long awaited convertible tablet. Maybe they will demo Leopard on their existing products. Typically the iMac. Maybe they will update the Mac Pro, and announce a semi-pro little brother. I just don't see a MacBook coming. Too early.
The consumer Xmas is a rational expectation. But, the MacBook and Mac Book Pro are in mid product cycle. The only Mac ready for an update is the Mac Pro, or a new product announcement.
I don't believe rumors. I go with evidence. And the evidence says to me that there will be something, but it wont be a Laptop that we have seen before.
Comments
I'm not talking about writing it form the ground up. I'm talking about conversion of existing drivers. It's one less thing to worry about.
At least you've taken a step back.
The point is that there are a number of costs involved in selling to the Mac market for any device. A company has to feel as though it can make a profit after they are all added in. It isn't any one of them that's the problem.
At least you've taken a step back.
The point is that there are a number of costs involved in selling to the Mac market for any device. A company has to feel as though it can make a profit after they are all added in. It isn't any one of them that's the problem.
But it was actually a hardware issue for the Mac and Nvidia graphics when we were on PPC. When the Cards were x86 and we were on PPC they were a major pain to get working. But now if Apple allowed BIOS, and UEFI, and wrote the drivers I was speaking of earlier, SLI and Quadro, The cards would be plug and play for the most part because Apple writes their own blanket drivers for Nvidia cards. Nvidia just provides source code. They do not write the drivers.
Essentially it is about BIOS because all the good cards are BIOS. When Apple switched to UEFI booting cards they limited our selection. The cards are there. We don't have to worry about cards. What we need is the lock-down in "UEFI only" removed.
But it was actually a hardware issue for the Mac and Nvidia graphics when we were on PPC. When the Cards were x86 and we were on PPC they were a major pain to get working. But now if Apple allowed BIOS, and UEFI, and wrote the drivers I was speaking of earlier, SLI and Quadro, The cards would be plug and play for the most part because Apple writes their own blanket drivers for Nvidia cards. Nvidia just provides source code. They do not write the drivers.
Essentially it is about BIOS because all the good cards are BIOS. When Apple switched to UEFI booting cards they limited our selection. The cards are there. We don't have to worry about cards. What we need is the lock-down in UEFI only removed.
the point I'm trying to make is that whether it's BIOS or UEFI, it isn't THAT important.
Yes, of course Apple writes all the drivers and ROMS for its own cards. They've always done that, even when ATI's own software was so much more sophisticated for their own cards on the Mac.
You just have to look at that software to see that the BIOS?UEFI thing is only a small part of the puzzle. Apple writes basic drivers. They never allowed us to use the more sophisticated functions of the cards, or to adjust them, while ATI gave us numerous control features.
t's not just the bit if software, but the marketing as well that is expensive. It likely doesn't cost more than a few tens of thousands to write that UEFI or BIOS code.
And don't forget that the BIOS for Apple's machines is NOT the same as that for the various PC's out there. It's machine specific to a certain extent, in that Apple handles it's machines differently.
Again, we're talking about sales numbers. If Apple's machines garner enough sales, companies will look more seriously at the platform. Until then, they won't.
We'll also have to see what the result is with 64 bit VISTA when it supports UEFI. And I'd be curious to know which cards are being used in the UEFI Itanium Windows systems, becasue there are cards for that.
What would be the ultimate kick in the ass is if Apple gave us a flash utility posted on their website, or in our utilities folder that came with a list of PC cards that have been tested, and worked. That would put the Mac on the track to Graphics parity with PC's. I would bet that if they did that some (most) graphics card manufacturers would buy a Mac to do their own testing, and they would line up to offer the best available cards to us.
Although I do agree a second (real) desktop (not a workstation/server) should be in the Apple lineup. A Semi-Pro machine would increase the need for graphics cards by manufactures, and supply the demand to those who don't want, for whatever reason, or cant afford the Mac Pro.
Just flew in from MacRumors (and boy are my hands tired..
Seriously though, this thread is close to my heart, as I have personally contributed to over 100 posts in the Mac Pro Waiting Game thread over at MR. Many of us have been waiting so long, the thread, started in April, is up to over 1,200 posts and over 69,000 views.
I have been waiting for a long time for updated graphics options. The Inquirer rumor that suggests Apple is snarfing up all the Harpertowns ahead of everyone else is indeed encouraging. However, ThinkSecret today posted that new Macbooks (according to their "sources") would be the only hardware updated before the end of the year.
Anyhow, I, like many, would love to see an 8800GTX or GTS (640 meg) as the mid-range card, 2 gigs FB-DIMM standard, and a 500 gig hard drive standard, and of course all dual quad-core across the board. However, some folks like to rain on the parade by saying "The Mac Pro is a workstation. Buy a PC for gaming". That would have been true in the PPC/pre-BootCamp days. But now you can have your cake and eat it too. Who wants to pay the electric bill on multiple computers anyway when you can run multiple systems on one beautiful machine?
Looking at the Harpertown lineup, it looks to me that the sweet spot would be the E5472, which is a 2.8 Ghz quad-core chip running at 1600 MHz FSB but with only 80 watt TDP. So with a 60% thermal drop compared to most other 1600 FSB chips running at 120 watts, you could have your cake and eat it too.
I find it personally insulting that Apple hasn't budged on the Mac Pro's pricing since its inception. Heck, the iPhone got a price drop after five weeks!
Still, it is almost obscene that Apple continues to charge $400.00US for an EOL'd Radeon x1900xt that is about two years old. So old that they need Foxconn to build them since ATI EOL'd them about 9 months ago. And $323 for a 500 gig hard drive?? You can get almost three of them for that price. But I digress.
Apple (and Steve) need to realize that, for these premium-priced workstations, it's about what WE want, not what Steve thinks we should have. Rip out those archaic graphics cards and give us something current.....from THIS year.
Anyhow, I'm glad I found another forum of hopeless hopefuls (tounge in cheek
-Wild Bill
Hi all.
Just flew in from MacRumors (and boy are my hands tired..
Seriously though, this thread is close to my heart, as I have personally contributed to over 100 posts in the Mac Pro Waiting Game thread over at MR. Many of us have been waiting so long, the thread, started in April, is up to over 1,200 posts and over 69,000 views.
I have been waiting for a long time for updated graphics options. The Inquirer rumor that suggests Apple is snarfing up all the Harpertowns ahead of everyone else is indeed encouraging. However, ThinkSecret today posted that new Macbooks (according to their "sources") would be the only hardware updated before the end of the year.
Anyhow, I, like many, would love to see an 8800GTX or GTS (640 meg) as the mid-range card, 2 gigs FB-DIMM standard, and a 500 gig hard drive standard, and of course all dual quad-core across the board. However, some folks like to rain on the parade by saying "The Mac Pro is a workstation. Buy a PC for gaming". That would have been true in the PPC/pre-BootCamp days. But now you can have your cake and eat it too. Who wants to pay the electric bill on multiple computers anyway when you can run multiple systems on one beautiful machine?
Looking at the Harpertown lineup, it looks to me that the sweet spot would be the E5472, which is a 2.8 Ghz quad-core chip running at 1600 MHz FSB but with only 80 watt TDP. So with a 60% thermal drop compared to most other 1600 FSB chips running at 120 watts, you could have your cake and eat it too.
I find it personally insulting that Apple hasn't budged on the Mac Pro's pricing since its inception. Heck, the iPhone got a price drop after five weeks!
Still, it is almost obscene that Apple continues to charge $400.00US for an EOL'd Radeon x1900xt that is about two years old. So old that they need Foxconn to build them since ATI EOL'd them about 9 months ago. And $323 for a 500 gig hard drive?? You can get almost three of them for that price. But I digress.
Apple (and Steve) need to realize that, for these premium-priced workstations, it's about what WE want, not what Steve thinks we should have. Rip out those archaic graphics cards and give us something current.....from THIS year.
Anyhow, I'm glad I found another forum of hopeless hopefuls (tounge in cheek
-Wild Bill
Heh heh. You think so, do you? Well, good luck, we've been whining about these things for quite a while, and see where it got us?
While I have no knowledge about what's going to happen, I think that the memory issues might go that way, as DRAM prices are dropping drastically.
You also have to realize that Mac Pro pricing is not for a price sensitive market, for the most part. When I bought Powermacs for my own company, I never used price as a purchase concern. These aren't business machines, they are production machines, very different.
Thinksecret expects no more hardware announcements after the Macbook/Leopard release.
It's a consumer Christmas? And no consumer tower to go with it. No tower update what-so-ever. That makes a year and a half without an Mac pro update (don't yell at me wit yer 8-core drop in at the top...)
Meh.
Merry Christmas.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Lemon Bon Bon.
You also have to realize that Mac Pro pricing is not for a price sensitive market, for the most part.
If we agree that it's a workstation. And not the elusive consumer tower. Then Apple are competitive apart from a lame amount of ram, micro-penile hard drive and an embarrassingly out of date gpu. But hey, the 8 core aspect of it is good. Just buy your ram, hard drive, gpu (oh, I can't do that...) from vendors other than Apple...(or Dell...)
Flails stick around...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Well, just to add to the deafening din of whining...
Thinksecret expects no more hardware announcements after the Macbook/Leopard release.
It's a consumer Christmas? And no consumer tower to go with it. No tower update what-so-ever. That makes a year and a half without an Mac pro update (don't yell at me wit yer 8-core drop in at the top...)
Meh.
Merry Christmas.
Lemon Bon Bon.
What new products should Apple come out with?
The new chips probably won't be available in any numbers until close to New Year's.
Apple probably is designing new machines around those new chips.
You want Apple to come out with new machines two months before Macworld? Then you expect another design-around then?
I don't.
I don't even understand why Apple would come out with a new MB now. Where does that leave it in January when the other new machines will presumably come out? With old chips?
If we agree that it's a workstation. And not the elusive consumer tower. Then Apple are competitive apart from a lame amount of ram, micro-penile hard drive and an embarrassingly out of date gpu. But hey, the 8 core aspect of it is good. Just buy your ram, hard drive, gpu (oh, I can't do that...) from vendors other than Apple...(or Dell...)
Flails stick around...
Lemon Bon Bon.
You can't buy a graphics card anywhere else, unless ATI comes out with one. But, you can certainly buy the other items, as well a a lot of cards for other purposes.
Edit: To Lemon
I don't believe rumors. I go with evidence. And the evidence says to me that there will be something, but it wont be a Laptop that we have seen before. Either the long awaited desktop, or a maybe the long awaited convertible tablet. Maybe they will demo Leopard on their existing products. Typically the iMac. Maybe they will update the Mac Pro, and announce a semi-pro little brother. I just don't see a MacBook coming. Too early.
The consumer Xmas is a rational expectation. But, the MacBook and Mac Book Pro are in mid product cycle. The only Mac ready for an update is the Mac Pro, or a new product announcement.
I don't believe rumors. I go with evidence. And the evidence says to me that there will be something, but it wont be a Laptop that we have seen before.
Smart man.
Smart man.
That's a first for me.
That's a first for me.
And probably the last.
And probably the last.
Did you read this post?
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...2&postcount=85
Did you read this post?
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...2&postcount=85
I did now, but I'm familiar with the idea of flashing.
You could also snip off a couple of projecting board trace connectors in some cards to get them to work on older machines, but not a good idea either.
Not a very good idea as I'm concerned, as you seem to have pointed out in you post.