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post #121 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Irrelevant.

We are talking about whether 'godlessness' leads to genocide.

I don't believe either one of you has defined Godlessness. Your arguments are going nowhere fast as you don't appear to have the same definition of the terms you are arguing about.

Also, "godlessness" or most any other religion does not lead to genocide, but it can lend to it. Genocide, in the modern era is usually more politically motivated than anything else.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #122 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

You are arguing that 'godlessness' leads to genocide.
...

That's as much as I read of that post; you're just not paying attention to what I've said.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #123 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

Irrelevant.

We are talking about whether 'godlessness' leads to genocide.

No, and no. Here, let me bring you back to what I've written -- again, and again and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No -- one of the terms I used was godlessness -- my argument is that Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment Philosphy led to far and away the greatest mass murder in recent history.

This is simply another case of misrepresenting what was said (by gross oversimplification) and then attacking that misrepresentation.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #124 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

That's as much as I read of that post; you're just not paying attention to what I've said.

This is cowardice.

You have used the word 'godless', repeatedly.

I take it that you mean 'without the belief that Jesus of Nazareth is the son of God.'

Now that I have defined my understanding of what you meant by 'godless', I will repeat what I posted, and I will expect you to have the courage to respond to it.

Genocide was not invented with the Soviet Revolution in 1917. It did not begin with the publication of 'Das Kapital' in 1867. It did not begin with the publication of 'On the Origin of Species' in 1857. It did not begin with the publication of 'Critique of Practical Reason' in 1788.

Why have you chosen to ignore all the atrocities that occurred before these dates? What is wrong with them? Why do they not count?

Either Christianity prevents people from committing genocide, and always has, or it does not, and never has.

The Spanish and the Portuguese arrived in the New World before the birth of Immanuel Kant. The men and women who massacred millions in Southern Africa and in the Americas prayed before they went about their work. Christian people continue to commit atrocities right to the present day.

Either Christianity prevents people from committing genocide or it does not.

If it does not, you cannot put any blame on the Enlightenment. You cannot say that 'godlessness' leads to genocide, as you have argued.

The people who committed atrocities in North America in the 1800s prayed before they committed massacre.

Are you arguing that they were not Christians? Are you now arguing that America was not founded by Christians?

When was Christianity invented? In 33 AD? Or with the founding of one single church in North America, today attended by you?

Either Christianity prevents people from committing genocide, and always has, or it does not, and never has.

The latter is true. Hence, Enlightenment notwithstanding, you cannot claim that godlessness leads to genocide. It is not true. You must find another argument. You cannot claim superiority for your club.
post #125 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumbo Jumbo View Post

This is cowardice.

You have used the word 'godless', repeatedly.

....

...and that's as much as I read of that.


Here, let me bring you back to what I've written -- again, and again and again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

No -- one of the terms I used was godlessness -- my argument is that Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment Philosphy led to far and away the greatest mass murder in recent history.

This is simply another case of misrepresenting what was said (by gross oversimplification) and then attacking that misrepresentation.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #126 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

And as much as the Left demonizes the Abrahamic religions, left to it's own devices and practiced purely -- Leftist ideology is empirically the most murderous and oppressive force in recent history.

The first post on this.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #127 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Whatever the number on the colinalization of America are -- -- that was over 300-500 years ago. The American slave trade was stopped just over 200 years ago. This is not recent history.

The famines that were engineered by the Soviets and elsewhere are only the tip of the iceberg. If you read the history of that time -- otherwise know as living memory -- the litany of genocide by the likes of the Chinese, Nazis, Khmer Rouge, Japanese, etc. is nothing short of astonishing. Which ultra-right ideology took over a country or continent in living memory, and began systematically slaughtering it's citizens? When was the last time that happened at all?

There is both no comparison in any way, shape, or form to how fast the godless can murder just as there is no comparison to the evil swath of oppression that they cut through living memory. The empirical reality is that Leftist ideology is the most verifiably poisonous, and dangerous ideology in widespread existence today.

The closest to competing would be the boogie-man "IslamoFascists" -- and even they can't hold a candle to that track record.

And moving back to 500 years ago, it is a false distinction to draw special attention to one culture's brutality, and pretend that world simply wasn't run that way in general.

Here's the second post on this...

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #128 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

I could give you the Shintoists; Hitler's thought was right out of Nietzsche. You would have to argue that Roman Catholic thought is what produced Mein Kampf, which is impossible -- and even then you STILL couldn't hold a candle to the godless/Communists. (And again -- let's not forget this is about what is relevant today: the here and now, living memory -- not selective memory of 500 years or more ago, when the world was in general a very brutal place.)

Here's the third post on this.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #129 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

Bringing up Rwanda was actually pretty dense -- in reality that was a serious Tribal cluster-Shtupp. Although there was a certain Ten Commandments in the mix, it's not the set you remember.

The Balkans example was better, and actually a fairly good example of Religious conflict that goes back centuries. I don't know that that conflict's the body count can compete with what happened under communism, though.

...and here's where you decided to grace us with your presence -- implying that somehow the Rawada massacre had its origins/were partially to blame in/because of Christianity.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #130 of 135
And probably the stunning thing about this -- no, not even probably -- is the fact that I'm actually having to argue this with anyone.

The people who lived and breathed that crap took that Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment philosophy, followed it to its logical conclusion, and it went off in their face -- over, and over, and over again. Even today, Cuba and North Korea are hell-holes, and holdovers of this philosophy. They're still digging up the bodies in Cambodia. But it's 'woop-de-doo -- no biggie -- coulda' happened to anyone.'

The reality is that if there were a string of Christian theocracies in the 20th century that butchered a couple hundred million people -- out of bueracratic planning, and "great leaps forward" -- as a Christian, I'd probably be writing this from a concentration camp.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #131 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

...and here's where you decided to grace us with your presence -- implying that somehow the Rawada massacre had its origins/were partially to blame in/because of Christianity.

We will have to begin again, because you have not read what I wrote.

I will re-state my argument in the simplest terms I can.

I am not claiming that a belief in Christianity provokes genocide.

Please re-read the previous sentence five times. Then we will be able to proceed.

Have you read that sentence five times?

Snap test: what was the sentence I asked you to re-read?

Naughty! Go back and look.

Excellent. "I am not claiming that a belief in Christianity provokes genocide." That's it! Now I can begin.

You have written:

Quote:
my argument is that Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment Philosphy led to far and away the greatest mass murder in recent history.

And I would like to address this.

Firstly, I must ask you to answer this simple question.

Do you believe, or do you not believe, that people calling themselves 'Christian' were responsible for the greatest acts of genocide in the history of our species?

Because it is a fact of history that they did. People who believed in the God of Abraham, and that his son was born in Nazareth, and that it was all written down in The Bible, destroyed the indigenous populations of the Americas, the Caribbean, the Arctic, and Southern Africa. They started nearly two centuries before the publication of 'Critique of Practical Reason' in 1788 and they ended at the about the time of the births of Josef Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot and Chairman Mao.

These things are facts, and are not open to argument.

In the light of this, your fixation on 'recent times' becomes irrelevant.

Since Christian people had 1600 years to perfect their faith and they still committed the worst acts of genocide in the history of our species, it would seem that the terrible crimes of the 'rightist' Hitler and the 'leftist' Stalin were caused not by a lack of spirituality but by a lack of humanity.

Why? Because, clearly, the presence or absence of a belief in god is irrelevant.

Whether these crimes were committed 'in recent history' or in 'the distant past', by Christians, by 'rightists' like Hitler or 'leftists' like Stalin, is irrelevant.

Kant, Marx, Darwin and The Bible are equally as relevant or irrelevant. These books merely changed the justifications for mass murder and the social contexts in which those mass murders took place.

It makes no difference whether you are a Christian or an atheist. A belief in the God of Abraham will not stop you from committing crimes of genocide, as we have seen, again and again, from the 1ate 1500s right to the present day.

And neither will the knowledge of the age of the universe.

The Christian faith of the Hutu and the Tutsi people did not prevent them from killing hundreds of thousands of each other this century. Christianity does not inoculate anyone from mass murder.

So you cannot claim superiority for your club. So you cannot claim that " Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment Philosphy led to far and away the greatest mass murder in recent history."
post #132 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

And probably the stunning thing about this -- no, not even probably -- is the fact that I'm actually having to argue this with anyone.

The people who lived and breathed that crap took that Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment philosophy, followed it to its logical conclusion, and it went off in their face -- over, and over, and over again. Even today, Cuba and North Korea are hell-holes, and holdovers of this philosophy. They're still digging up the bodies in Cambodia. But it's 'woop-de-doo -- no biggie -- coulda' happened to anyone.'

The reality is that if there were a string of Christian theocracies in the 20th century that butchered a couple hundred million people -- out of bueracratic planning, and "great leaps forward" -- as a Christian, I'd probably be writing this from a concentration camp.

Why do you not include 'rightist' in your list?

Adolf Hitler was extremely right wing. His crimes were important. Why do you count these crimes out? Why do you ignore them?
post #133 of 135
I think dmz is just pissed that some "Godless Heathens" came on to the scene recently that were more efficient in mass killing people than "Team Jesus" were. Of course, most of the "Godless Heathens" weren't really "Godless" as such , more like puppets for the Church.

Useful idiots for a shadowy organisation.
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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post #134 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz View Post

-- as a Christian, I'd probably be writing this from a concentration camp.

You are, its called "Free market capatilist America"

Aside,

You're a decent bloke Wilbur, why do you align yourselves constantly with your captors, your tormentors and your persecutors.?

Youre savvy enough to know what is going on. Isn't it time to break free?
[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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[CENTER]Recedite, plebes. Obesa cantavit![/CENTER]
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post #135 of 135
dmz, you have ignored the points I made.

I will repeat them here, so if no one adds to this thread, this is at least the last post, and people will be able to read what you did not have the courage to respond to.

....

You have written:

Quote:
my argument is that Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment Philosphy led to far and away the greatest mass murder in recent history.

Firstly, I must ask you to answer this simple question.

Do you believe, or do you not believe, that people calling themselves 'Christian' were responsible for the greatest acts of genocide in the history of our species?

Because it is a fact of history that they did. People who believed in the God of Abraham, and that his son was born in Nazareth, and that it was all written down in The Bible, destroyed the indigenous populations of the Americas, the Caribbean, the Arctic, and Southern Africa. They started nearly two centuries before the publication of 'Critique of Practical Reason' in 1788 and they ended at the about the time of the births of Josef Stalin, Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot and Chairman Mao.

These things are facts, and are not open to argument.

In the light of this, your fixation on 'recent times' becomes irrelevant.

Since Christian people had 1600 years to perfect their faith and they still committed the worst acts of genocide in the history of our species, it would seem that the terrible crimes of the 'rightist' Hitler and the 'leftist' Stalin were caused not by a lack of spirituality but by a lack of humanity.

Why? Because, clearly, the presence or absence of a belief in god is irrelevant.

Whether these crimes were committed 'in recent history' or in 'the distant past', by Christians, by 'rightists' like Hitler or 'leftists' like Stalin, is irrelevant.

Kant, Marx, Darwin and The Bible are equally as relevant or irrelevant. These books merely changed the justifications for mass murder and the social contexts in which those mass murders took place.

It makes no difference whether you are a Christian or an atheist. A belief in the God of Abraham will not stop you from committing crimes of genocide, as we have seen, again and again, from the 1ate 1500s right to the present day.

And neither will the knowledge of the age of the universe.

The Christian faith of the Hutu and the Tutsi people did not prevent them from killing hundreds of thousands of each other this century. Christianity does not inoculate anyone from mass murder.

So you cannot claim superiority for your club. So you cannot claim that " Leftist/Atheist Enlightenment Philosphy led to far and away the greatest mass murder in recent history."
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