[QUOTE=Mumbo Jumbo;1687566]But this is absolute horseshit.[/quote}
To reject preposterous arguments as preposterous is in no way to say "everything is ok...everything is EXACTLY as it appears to be. Those in authority over us would NEVER be dishonest. NEVER collude to commit crime. NEVER be corrupt. EVERYTHING is exactly as it appears to be and MUST be this way and you are insane to think otherwise."
True, rejecting preposterous arguments is fine - but that's not what happens is it? The concept
of Conspiracy Theories is what is generally rejected - as you did for example above - way before Sammi Jo actually arrived with a 'theory'.
Also there is the issue of what exactly a 'preposterous argument' actually is - if it is seen as 'all and every Conspiracy Theory that is possible or what I deem to be one' then my argument holds good.
On the contrary. It is to say "For fuck's sake, get your head out of your anus and stop wasting time on this studenty 'Lord of the Rings' approach to reality and let's focus on the real dangers and problems we face, because they REALLY ARE urgent."
Ok....I can see that. There are certainly far more urgent issues that those that concern most Conspiracy Minded people BUT then again, if they were true then they would be or grear concern also wouldn't they some of them?
For example. George Bush and Darth Cheney were not honest. They really were corrupt, and they really were unethical liars, and the Gulf War really was fought on a fiction.
And all the energy that Truther dickheads spent on fighting their 9/11 battle was energy wasted on fighting a battle that should never have been fought, because it was preposterous, and served to discredit and frustrate others.
That's true. And of course many of the people under that banner are right-wing strangely who opposed Bush because he was not right-wing enough presumably - or for some other unfathomable reason.
If you look at the two most influential 'conspiracy' sites:Rense .comWhat Really Happened
Then you see something interesting- both of these were extreme anti-Bush and anti-war, still are.
But Rense is a racist who is obsessed with Hitler and WRH is now focussing on the 'conspiracy' of Global Warming and opposing Obama's health reforms.
That's not my point though: it is important to be able to think that things are possibly the opposite of what they are presented to be.
That is a sort of freedom: freedom from manipulation by advertising, by the media, by Nationalism....
Let's think about the Birthers. Their beliefs have as much to do with reality as yours do, Segovius, on 9/11. Like the Truthers, they want to win a political fight. Like them, also, they don't know what reality actually is, and they discredit and embarrass the American opposition.
True...but a lot of this must be seen in a cultural context.
There are sections of American society that - how can I say this correctly, ahem - are not perhaps the sharpest tools in the box but also enjoy a cultural position where they see this is an asset.
I'm thinking of the sort of people who cheer outside executions and write signs with 'morans' written on them. These people of course will come up with insane positions - it's what they do and have always done - the internet merely gives them a platform and the 'Conspiracy Movement' (for want of a better word) give them a constituency.
These people are not rational - but that does not discredit the concept
of CTs anymore than it would make me one of them if we eat the same breakfast cereal.
Re 911 though and my views on it: there are anomalous aspects of 911 just as their are insane theories about it.
THis, imo, is because they don't tell you the truth about it. That doesn't mean the truth is 'aliens' or 'explosions' or even 'collusions' - it is probably something boring and prosaic but that is not the point...the point is that they don't think we need to know the trut
h and that we need an 'official version'.
As I say, this does not mean the truth is spectacular or odd - it just means our 'leaders' want to obscure how they actually act and think we are not worthy of knowing how that is. Or perhaps we would object.
Almost every piece of news or political event could be seen as a Conspiracy. It just is never a spectacular one nine times out of ten so no-one cares.
We have real battles to fight, and, of course, we're being lied to, and the rot is systemic.
That's kind of what I'm saying in a more long-winded way!
And all the time people indulge their student proclivities to discuss conspiracy nonsense, our planet is dying. Why don't you stop wasting your time on this fantasy and fight for action on climate, Segovius (if you're not)? I've been doing that, where I live. Why don't you you stop wasting your time on nonsense and fight for sustainable growth, or an alternative to growth? So we can feed people and stop pollution and imagine what happens after capitalism?
It's a good question. I suppose the simple answer is I am conflicted about it. On the one hand I am very sceptical that the individuals running the world can be dislodged - and so we have these characters denying climate change and essentially killing us.
I know for sure that if they succeed - and there seems to me an almost odds-on chance they will - then their last words as we all die screaming would be some rationale as to why they were right.
So, for a few years I have been wondering 'how then to live' in the light of this. Give up? Live for oneself? I don't know.
It makes me angry also - for a long time I felt that at a certain tipping-point I would resort to direct resistance and perhaps form some sort of group but lately I have realized the futility of violence so that's out. I don't have any answers.
I involved myself with a project for the last couple of years which aimed to help people through social change but it turned out to be not what I thought it was going to be and didn't make any change at all.
I still believe in change though.
I just think you need to see beyond to the reality - Obama's 'change' and 'hope' would be a classic example. I never bought into it. That was what I call a CT too...it's not all about aliens and moon-landings.
What about South African democracy, or the actions of petrol companies on the Niger Delta? Can't you pick a fight where your energy will be useful?
You fight your battle where you are attacked no?
If you're not being attacked then thank God, settle down and relax where you are and be ready to respond if it happens while supporting those fighting elsewhere.
Why don't you stop living in this role playing A.R.G. world, face reality, and try and make a difference?
Reality is what you can get away with as Robert Wilson used to say. There are versions of it.
I face my version pretty often - but it is malleable.