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The Government Should Help Me!

post #1 of 62
11/9/10 at 10:56am
Thread Starter 
Women goes on hunger strike to protest the foreclosure on her home:

http://www.wbaltv.com/r/25677444/detail.html


Quote:
She started a hunger strike against foreclosure and said she's prepared to remain at the corner of Maryland Avenue and State Circle -- right across the street from the state house in Annapolis -- for as long as needed.
"I feel like I'm really representing a lot of people out here," she said.

Yes, yes you are. You're representing a lot of people that blame the government when things go bad.

Quote:
She claimed she doesn't live beyond her means and sought help after the property taxes on her home went up 55 percent in the past couple of years.
The taxes are paid with her mortgage bill. Rymer said when it jumped from an affordable $1,500 a month to $2,100 a month, she couldn't keep up.
She said she didn't realize she could have challenged the property tax assessment until it was too late.

Well see here's the thing, chick...you clearly DID live beyond your means. Since you presumably want tax dollars to help you...at least indirectly...let me ask: How is it my fault that you got a mortgage that you couldn't afford if your taxes went up? How I am responsible for your stupidity and lack of planning? Really...you're going to lose your home over $600 a month? You can't find a way to adjust. Have you considered selling your car, or getting a second job--or a better job? How is my fault that you are so ignorant and lazy as to "not realize" that you could appeal your taxes--even when faced with the prospect of losing your home?

Quote:
"I just didn't understand why -- at this time when times are so rough and the governor called three weeks before for (federal) banks to stop moving forward with foreclosures on their clients -- the state government was moving forward with a foreclosure on mine without trying every possible channel to help me stay in my home," she said.

Why should the lender "try every possible channel to help her stay in her home?" No lady, YOU SHOULD have tried everthing to stay in your home. YOU. Not us....YOU.

Quote:
Rymer said her mortgage had been bundled and sold several times, finally ending up in the hands of the Maryland Department of Housing and Community Development.

The Department of Housing owns mortgages directly now? Wow, it really IS the People's Republic of Maryland!
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post #2 of 62
11/9/10 at 11:09am
$2,100 a month for property taxes?!?! Good God! Are the paving the streets in her town with gold or something?

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #3 of 62
11/9/10 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

$2,100 a month for property taxes?!?! Good God! Are the paving the streets in her town with gold or something?

I think that figure is the total amount of her mortgage payment with the inflated property taxes included.

Still, the fact that she doesn't think she shares any responsibility for her predicament is quite disturbing.

I bet she voted for Obama.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #4 of 62
11/9/10 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

I think that figure is the total amount of her mortgage payment with the inflated property taxes included.

OK. I didn't read that very carefully. Still a pretty massive jump just for property taxes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Still, the fact that she doesn't think she shares any responsibility for her predicament is quite disturbing.

Agreed.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #5 of 62
11/9/10 at 11:19am
oh look, another anti-human, sociopathic viewpoint from the right-wing - what a suprise. Kick 'em when they're down boys.
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post #6 of 62
11/9/10 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

Kick 'em when they're down boys.

...but THIS particular lady is not "down" because of bad luck, or circumstances beyond her control.

She is "down" because she bought something on credit that she could not afford to pay for. She's an adult (presumably). She should know enough to do a little due diligence before signing on the dotted line. She should have known what property taxes do (they go up), she should know what an ARM is and how it differs from a fixed rate.
Instead of going on a "hunger strike" and sitting on the curb, she could have used that same time to get a job a McD's and come up with the extra $600 pretty easily.

While there are those who need and deserve some help, this lady is NOT one of them.
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #7 of 62
11/9/10 at 12:13pm
But when the bastions and symbols of capitalism/corporatism FAIL, due to their inbuilt characteristics, ineptitude, greed and endemic criminal conduct, what happens? They crawl to THE GOVERNMENT and get... or rather extort, $TRILLIONS in TAXPAYER MONEY, no questions asked, no investigations, no inquiry. How that for the devolution of the republic into a jungle law mafiocracy, perfectly in keeping with the "principles" of Ayn Rand and the extremist right.

But when ordinary people come upon hard times due to no fault of their own, or rather the criminal and unpoliceable activities of the banksters et al, the hardliners are more than happy to stomp on them.

It is cowards who bully. And when the target is small, the "tougher" the cowards get.
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #8 of 62
11/9/10 at 12:15pm
So, it is the corporations who asked for trillions in taxpayer money that are at fault?

What about the government who gave them our money instead of saying no?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #9 of 62
11/9/10 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

So, it is the corporations who asked for trillions in taxpayer money that are at fault?

What about the government who gave them our money instead of saying no?

Moist likely because the part of the top level of "government" responsible for such decisions is a corporatist entity, answering to big business, big finance and their armies of lawyers and lobbyists.
"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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"We've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming". VP Cheney, 3/29/2006. Interview by Tony Snow
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post #10 of 62
11/9/10 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Moist likely because the part of the top level of "government" responsible for such decisions is a corporatist entity, answering to big business, big finance and their armies of lawyers and lobbyists.

This is almost certainly true. Another word for "corporatist" (though less fashionable) is "fascist." or even "corporate socialism" or "state capitalism." These are different phrases to describe different facets or variations of the same thing. The co-called "third way" which is, essentially a merger of corporate and state power into a cartel or monopoly to prevent real competition and siphon off wealth.

I think the point jazzguru is making is the fault lies with that entity rather than the askers. It is somewhat human to ask for help, to even ask for a hand-out, to sometime expect something for nothing. All of these are more blunt ways to say that people look for someone to help them sometimes to protect them from the consequences of their own actions and choices. Big corporations and their political partners can offer any number of "rational" reasons why it makes sense for the government to do this for them. This has been happening for probably a hundred years. The book "The Creature from Jekyll Island" provides a historical survey of these bailouts that reads like a present day headline. Only the names change. In the end, someone is free to ask, but some way, somehow we need to get those in government to say "no!"

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #11 of 62
11/9/10 at 5:01pm
I'm sure we are not getting the full story here. Why does the "Maryland Department of Housing and Community Development" own the loan on her home? Also I assume that part of the payment goes into escrow to pay the property taxes? So did she not pay her taxes or not pay her mortgage? So who is making a claim on the house the paper holder or the government agency that is owed taxes? How did her taxes go up when property value has been going down.
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #12 of 62
11/9/10 at 5:46pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

OK. I didn't read that very carefully. Still a pretty massive jump just for property taxes.

Agreed.

Not really. It can happen. My local district once proposed a 23.5% increase in one year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK View Post

oh look, another anti-human, sociopathic viewpoint from the right-wing - what a suprise. Kick 'em when they're down boys.

Yes, it's not like I have an independent opinion. I must be part of some right wing conspiracy to kill people. Oh, and let's not forget the socipathic, anti-human part. How'd you guess? I mean, I totally deserve to be called a sociopath people-hater because I think she should have planned ahead. What was I thinking? You're right...she should just stay in her home and we should all give her our money because we just love people so much. Man, I sure do feel better now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfSomewhereHot View Post

...but THIS particular lady is not "down" because of bad luck, or circumstances beyond her control.

She is "down" because she bought something on credit that she could not afford to pay for. She's an adult (presumably). She should know enough to do a little due diligence before signing on the dotted line. She should have known what property taxes do (they go up), she should know what an ARM is and how it differs from a fixed rate.
Instead of going on a "hunger strike" and sitting on the curb, she could have used that same time to get a job a McD's and come up with the extra $600 pretty easily.

While there are those who need and deserve some help, this lady is NOT one of them.

Could not have said it better. She's in this position because she made bad, uninformed decisions. Millions of people just like her bought houses because they thought they deserved it and that's "what people do." They didn't think about future/potential problems. Worse still,when problems did arise, they sat back like paralyzed children and hoped for things to change because Hope and Change were promised. This lady flat out pisses me off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

But when the bastions and symbols of capitalism/corporatism FAIL, due to their inbuilt characteristics, ineptitude, greed and endemic criminal conduct, what happens? They crawl to THE GOVERNMENT and get... or rather extort, $TRILLIONS in TAXPAYER MONEY, no questions asked, no investigations, no inquiry. How that for the devolution of the republic into a jungle law mafiocracy, perfectly in keeping with the "principles" of Ayn Rand and the extremist right.

But when ordinary people come upon hard times due to no fault of their own, or rather the criminal and unpoliceable activities of the banksters et al, the hardliners are more than happy to stomp on them.

It is cowards who bully. And when the target is small, the "tougher" the cowards get.

Let me ask, does the government have any culpability? Why is it that the corporations are always at fault? Did not the Community Reinvestment Act and Congressional Democrats pushing lenders to make "loose" loans cause a good portion of the problem?

I'm not saying greed and corruption didn't play a big role. I think they did. But I also think the government helped create people like this idiot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

Moist likely because the part of the top level of "government" responsible for such decisions is a corporatist entity, answering to big business, big finance and their armies of lawyers and lobbyists.

'

That I can't disagree with.

[quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloorJack View Post

I'm sure we are not getting the full story here. Why does the "Maryland Department of Housing and Community Development" own the loan on her home?

Good question. I still am having trouble with that.

Quote:
Also I assume that part of the payment goes into escrow to pay the property taxes? So did she not pay her taxes or not pay her mortgage? So who is making a claim on the house the paper holder or the government agency that is owed taxes? How did her taxes go up when property value has been going down.

Two misunderstandings here: Her mortgage is paid along with her taxes each month, the latter of which is held in escrow. So it's likely she just couldn't make the payments, period. That puts the mortgage in default, since they can't be separated. Secondly, most tax assessments are NOT based on market value, only assessment...at least in most states (I know PA is like this). The assessment has nothing to do with resale value or market value and rarely changes. Only the millage or percentage of tax changes. If a reassessment is done, millage is usually adjusted downward as well to reset the rate.
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post #13 of 62
11/9/10 at 9:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

$2,100 a month for property taxes?!?! Good God! Are the paving the streets in her town with gold or something?

That's about what my parents are paying in property taxes (manageable) and owners association fees (the biggest hit, which has tripled since they bought the flat) for their three-bedroom condo in San Diego, despite having paid off their mortgage. Needless to say, they've been forced to sell the flat (and have finally been successful after two years of trying).

Renting, unfortunately, really makes much more sense in the "rich get richer" climate. Shrinking middle class, and all...

Where a middle-class couple like my parents could have afforded to work hard, save money, and use their retirement nest egg to buy a nice house and live comfortable retired lives before, Reaganomics has resulted in making that path open only for the super-rich.
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post #14 of 62
11/9/10 at 10:51pm
A question that comes from this thread: Why do some people, more specifically those of a politically/socially conservative standpoint, get so bent out of shape about "socialism for those at the bottom of the totem", but approve, ignore, or remain mute about government socialism when élites become unstuck... which seems to happen on a regular basis throughout modern history (especially in the 20th and 21st Centuries in the US).

Failed big business, or failed big banks, or failed senior executives so often get massive handouts, bailouts or golden parachutes... and so often get away with the type of criminal conduct which would bring the full weight of law enforcement down upon people of "ordinary financial standing". Perhaps, because "free market capitalism" has assumed a status akin to a religion in the US, to treat its icons the same as the rest of us has come to be regarded as a type of blasphemy? Whatever happened to the 'meritocratic' notion of the "free market"... that is... if one believe that a "free market" is theoretically possibility in a world of commerce dominated by such extensive, endemic crime and corruption?
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post #15 of 62
11/10/10 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

A question that comes from this thread: Why do some people, more specifically those of a politically/socially conservative standpoint, get so bent out of shape about "socialism for those at the bottom of the totem", but approve, ignore, or remain mute about government socialism when élites become unstuck... which seems to happen on a regular basis throughout modern history (especially in the 20th and 21st Centuries in the US).

Failed big business, or failed big banks, or failed senior executives so often get massive handouts, bailouts or golden parachutes... and so often get away with the type of criminal conduct which would bring the full weight of law enforcement down upon people of "ordinary financial standing". Perhaps, because "free market capitalism" has assumed a status akin to a religion in the US, to treat its icons the same as the rest of us has come to be regarded as a type of blasphemy? Whatever happened to the 'meritocratic' notion of the "free market"... that is... if one believe that a "free market" is theoretically possibility in a world of commerce dominated by such extensive, endemic crime and corruption?

I don't think they do Sammi. I think the Tea Party was as much a reaction against bank and corporate bailouts as it was against socialism at the bottom. Do you not think so?

I've seen plenty of right leaning members on here condemn Pax Americana, farm subsidies, corporate loopholes, etc. MJ1970 nailed it perfectly. It is well understood that large companies love to shut the door on middle and small business by requiring regulatory requirements that only they can meet and again, most on the right stand against this as well.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #16 of 62
11/10/10 at 5:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's about what my parents are paying in property taxes (manageable) and owners association fees (the biggest hit, which has tripled since they bought the flat) for their three-bedroom condo in San Diego, despite having paid off their mortgage.

Well I only pay about $2,100 a year in property taxes, so you can imagine my shock. I live in a pretty standard middle-class suburban subdivision. We have all the amenities any town "ought" to have: paved roads, parks, recreation centers that are only used by 10% of the people, large palatial "city center" building complex, police SWAT team , foreign trip junkets for the city council members to visit "sister cities" in Japan, et al, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Renting, unfortunately, really makes much more sense in the "rich get richer" climate. Shrinking middle class, and all...




Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Where a middle-class couple like my parents could have afforded to work hard, save money, and use their retirement nest egg to buy a nice house and live comfortable retired lives before, Reaganomics has resulted in making that path open only for the super-rich.



My (retired) parents are middle-class also and have a nice home (paid for at least mostly) and live well.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #17 of 62
11/10/10 at 6:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's about what my parents are paying in property taxes (manageable) and owners association fees (the biggest hit, which has tripled since they bought the flat) for their three-bedroom condo in San Diego, despite having paid off their mortgage. Needless to say, they've been forced to sell the flat (and have finally been successful after two years of trying).

Renting, unfortunately, really makes much more sense in the "rich get richer" climate. Shrinking middle class, and all...

Where a middle-class couple like my parents could have afforded to work hard, save money, and use their retirement nest egg to buy a nice house and live comfortable retired lives before, Reaganomics has resulted in making that path open only for the super-rich.

While I feel for your parents, you should either investigate the claims on this a bit more or blame their HOA and realize the government being able to follow suit would only make it worse.

In California, we passed prop 13 back in the 1970's. This limits property taxes to 1.25% of the valuation of the property at the time the property was last valued. The only thing that can change the property taxes are some add-on local bond measures, or getting the property revalued in some fashion via refinance or a property sell.

People decry this inequity because a couple that is in their 60's that bought their property in the 80's can be paying $2000 while their neighbor might be $6000 having bought 20 years later but it stops the government from taxing you out of your home.

So in the case of your parents if their property taxes changed, they had to do something to force that change.

The HOA however does have the ability to raise those fees at will. It sounds like they are doing all sorts of craziness and this is part of why I won't own a home in an area with an HOA.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #18 of 62
11/10/10 at 6:08am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

A question that comes from this thread: Why do some people, more specifically those of a politically/socially conservative standpoint, get so bent out of shape about "socialism for those at the bottom of the totem", but approve, ignore, or remain mute about government socialism when élites become unstuck... which seems to happen on a regular basis throughout modern history (especially in the 20th and 21st Centuries in the US).

That's a big question. I'll try: I support SOME of the corporate bailouts that have occurred...not so much the coporate welfare over the long term, but the bailouts. We had a situation where an AIG failing may truly have led to a global meltdown..not just a crisis, but a collapse of the US and world economic system. So SOME of those bailouts (like AIG's) were needed, I think. A lot of this money has been repaid as well.

But the reason I'm "bent out of shape" is that this woman "represents" (her word) "a lot of people." And that is the problem...she represents a good portion of what is wrong with America today. She is reaching out for government help and has a perverted world view. She represents the growing entitlement class. She bought a home because things were good (or good enough) so to speak, and because she felt entitled. She never looked down to the road to plan for the worst. Huge mistake...but I refuse to be one of the people that pays for it.

I can't say that it is all her fault. We were all affected by the "credit culture" so to speak. People were willing to take on debt to finance their lifestyle. I did it myself, though more responsibly I think. Now things have changed though. People are unwilling to take on debt.

Quote:

Failed big business, or failed big banks, or failed senior executives so often get massive handouts, bailouts or golden parachutes... and so often get away with the type of criminal conduct which would bring the full weight of law enforcement down upon people of "ordinary financial standing". Perhaps, because "free market capitalism" has assumed a status akin to a religion in the US, to treat its icons the same as the rest of us has come to be regarded as a type of blasphemy? Whatever happened to the 'meritocratic' notion of the "free market"... that is... if one believe that a "free market" is theoretically possibility in a world of commerce dominated by such extensive, endemic crime and corruption?

I agree in principle. With the exception of SOME of the financial bailouts, we should have let certain businesses fail. At the very most, they should have gotten LOANS, not stock purchases by the feds (e.g. General Motors). It's also worth noting that the government pushed some of the TARP money on banks that didn't want it. I heard many stories of smaller regional banks being forced to take millions in TARP funding that they didn't want. Even some of the large firms, like JP Morgan Chase, wanted to pay back the money early.
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post #19 of 62
11/11/10 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sammi jo View Post

A question that comes from this thread: Why do some people, more specifically those of a politically/socially conservative standpoint, get so bent out of shape about "socialism for those at the bottom of the totem", but approve, ignore, or remain mute about government socialism when élites become unstuck... which seems to happen on a regular basis throughout modern history (especially in the 20th and 21st Centuries in the US).

Failed big business, or failed big banks, or failed senior executives so often get massive handouts, bailouts or golden parachutes... and so often get away with the type of criminal conduct which would bring the full weight of law enforcement down upon people of "ordinary financial standing". Perhaps, because "free market capitalism" has assumed a status akin to a religion in the US, to treat its icons the same as the rest of us has come to be regarded as a type of blasphemy? Whatever happened to the 'meritocratic' notion of the "free market"... that is... if one believe that a "free market" is theoretically possibility in a world of commerce dominated by such extensive, endemic crime and corruption?

I'd love to run the experiment over again and let all the banks fail. Let AIG go away. In fact lets run back the hands of time and not create Fan and Fred. A lot of republicans were against the bailout and wanted to roll back Fan and Fred. They lost. Obama voted for it.\
The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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The politics of charisma is so Third World. Americans were never going to buy into it for long. - Foudad Ajami
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post #20 of 62
11/11/10 at 1:13pm
  • BR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

With the exception of SOME of the financial bailouts, we should have let certain businesses fail.

Nope, we didn't let any businesses fail. Certainly not banks. None at all. Oh wait, click the link.

 

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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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post #21 of 62
11/11/10 at 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nope, we didn't let any businesses fail. Certainly not banks. None at all. Oh wait, click the link.

Did you see the "Acquiring Institution" column?

Only 24 of those banks have "No Acquirer".

This means the failures of all but 24 of those banks have actually been to the benefit of other banks.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #22 of 62
11/11/10 at 3:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Nope, we didn't let any businesses fail. Certainly not banks. None at all. Oh wait, click the link.

This is the kind of intellectually dishonest crap I've come to expect from you. First, they weren't allowed to fail. Depositors got their money. Secondly, you know full well I wasn't talking about banks. I was talking about private industry, particularly outside the financial sector. I should have known better though, as I should expect to be followed around by folks like you.
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post #23 of 62
11/11/10 at 9:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Women goes on hunger strike to protest the foreclosure on her home:

http://www.wbaltv.com/r/25677444/detail.html




Yes, yes you are. You're representing a lot of people that blame the government when things go bad.



Well see here's the thing, chick...you clearly DID live beyond your means. Since you presumably want tax dollars to help you...at least indirectly...let me ask: How is it my fault that you got a mortgage that you couldn't afford if your taxes went up? How I am responsible for your stupidity and lack of planning? Really...you're going to lose your home over $600 a month? You can't find a way to adjust. Have you considered selling your car, or getting a second job--or a better job? How is my fault that you are so ignorant and lazy as to "not realize" that you could appeal your taxes--even when faced with the prospect of losing your home?



Why should the lender "try every possible channel to help her stay in her home?" No lady, YOU SHOULD have tried everthing to stay in your home. YOU. Not us....YOU.



The Department of Housing owns mortgages directly now? Wow, it really IS the People's Republic of Maryland!

Sad story. A bit harsh on your part but I agree that a hunger strike is not how this is going to be resolved. She is not being unfairly picked on or singled out from what I can see. She is not paying her mortgage and as such, and by the terms of her loan agreement, she is on the verge of losing her home. Reality is harsh sometimes.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #24 of 62
11/12/10 at 12:12am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

This is the kind of intellectually dishonest crap I've come to expect from you. First, they weren't allowed to fail. Depositors got their money. Secondly, you know full well I wasn't talking about banks. I was talking about private industry, particularly outside the financial sector. I should have known better though, as I should expect to be followed around by folks like you.

So are you saying we would have been better off as a nation if GM ceased to exist?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
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post #25 of 62
11/12/10 at 12:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So are you saying we would have been better off as a nation if GM ceased to exist?

Do you honestly believe that was going to happen?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #26 of 62
11/12/10 at 1:23am
  • BR
  • Justified Arrogance
It certainly was well within the realm of possibility if things kept going where they were. Losses of many, many American jobs was an absolutely certainty regardless.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #27 of 62
11/12/10 at 5:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

So are you saying we would have been better off as a nation if GM ceased to exist?

I'll go ahead and say it: Yes.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #28 of 62
11/12/10 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

I'll go ahead and say it: Yes.

Ditto. It was the union contracts that were killing GM. The problem there still hasn't been solved. We are just subsidizing the problem now.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #29 of 62
11/12/10 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman View Post

Ditto. It was the union contracts that were killing GM. The problem there still hasn't been solved. We are just subsidizing the problem now.

I'm sorry but I really don't think GM failing would have been a good thing in the long or short for economy and it's current situation. But I've come to believe that conservatives think things would just magically right themselves. Do I think it's a good thing for governments to bail comapanies out? No. But in really dire straits you probably shouldn't let one of your biggest companies fail and add a lot to the unemployment numbers.

And let's be sure about what we're talking about here. It's not just the workers in those plants and show rooms. It's the guy that sells parts and everything down the line that would be put in hardship.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #30 of 62
11/12/10 at 7:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'm sorry but I really don't think GM failing would have been a good thing in the long or short for economy and it's current situation.

Good for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

But I've come to believe that conservatives think things would just magically right themselves.

You may have come to think a lot of things that aren't correct. I guess we can add this to the list.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #31 of 62
11/12/10 at 7:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ1970 View Post

Well I only pay about $2,100 a year in property taxes, so you can imagine my shock. I live in a pretty standard middle-class suburban subdivision. We have all the amenities any town "ought" to have: paved roads, parks, recreation centers that are only used by 10% of the people, large palatial "city center" building complex, police SWAT team , foreign trip junkets for the city council members to visit "sister cities" in Japan, et al, etc.











My (retired) parents are middle-class also and have a nice home (paid for at least mostly) and live well.


Good for them. For the bulk of the population I'm seeing retirement as a thing that will never be what they pictured ( riding across the country in a Winnebaggo ).
For most it will mean working part time ( probably a good thing since not doing anything usuually means you'll die soon ) and learning to live on much less. And now one idea to lower the deficit is to raise the maditory age to 69. Something the europeans have done in their cutting ( and something you were advocating in one of your threads " Why aren't we doing this ? " not long ago ). Some people don't live much longer than that.
Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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Without the need for difference or a need to always follow the herd breeds complacency, mediocrity, and a lack of imagination
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post #32 of 62
11/12/10 at 7:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Good for them. For the bulk of the population I'm seeing retirement as a thing that will never be what they pictured ( riding across the country in a Winnebaggo ).

I'm sure that's probably true. I know mine won't be like that. I actually don't plan to retire. But, yes, politicians of all stripes have made it more difficult for many people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

And now one idea to lower the deficit is to raise the maditory age to 69.

First I don't think there should be any mandatory age of retirement. Second as regards raising the eligibility age for government retirement benefits...that's probably a very good idea. Eventually these should be eliminated altogether except for cases of the most destitute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Something the europeans have done in their cutting

Yeah...and we see how well received that's been. \


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

( and something you were advocating in one of your threads " Why aren't we doing this ? " not long ago ).

I do advocate raising the age. I also think we should phase SS out completely over time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Some people don't live much longer than that.

What's interesting, and most people don't realize is that when SS was setup, the eligibility age was set to 65 I think at a time when most people didn't live much longer than that age. So it was setup as sort of a "last year (or two) of life" benefit program. It was not intended to be a 20 year retirement pension plan. Things have changed. The age should be raise. 70 should be the minimum. Maybe 75.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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post #33 of 62
11/12/10 at 7:31am
The great thing about this, is that most of us know all about personal responsibility and realise that we make mistakes and poor judgements or just get unlucky time to time, that is life...

Every time though, look *who* jumps in with the condescending, anti-human, sociopathic responses...every right-winger poster here..

This thread is basically not news, its happening to millions of people all over the world right now, in some way or another.

Its just an outlet for a very bitter and twisted winger to vent fury at someone who is already down on their luck. Why would you do that? It must make the OP feel better. They must be frightened about something.

That IS the definition of the right-wing afterall. Scared, cowering, bullies, lording it over the unfortunate in order to make them selves feel better.

I forgot though, this is bizarro world....Sociopathy is the new compassion.
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post #34 of 62
11/12/10 at 7:59am
2 years ago, I was laid off and I lost my house.

The difference between me and this woman is that I did not expect the government to step in and save my house or job (I did not even file for unemployment). I did not expect the bank to make everything better (although I did try working with the lender in every possible way, only to be foreclosed on anyway).

I accepted responsibility for my own decisions. We were living paycheck to paycheck. That is dangerous. You take even one of those paychecks out of the equation, and your whole world can turn upside down in an instant.

We were living on the very edge of our means, and we suffered the consequences. We have learned from that experience and are working diligently so that we are never in such a position again.

Believing in personal responsibility and accountability is not "anti-human". It is not uncaring or cruel. Quite the opposite. This belief is deeply rooted in a love of freedom and liberty and the idea that all men are created equal and should have equal opportunity to make of their lives what they will.

But it is important to understand that equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. Freedom exists only where people are willing to take responsibility for how they exercise that freedom.

I am a self-described "Conservative Libertarian" and I approve this message.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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post #35 of 62
11/12/10 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcUK™ View Post

... They must be frightened about something...

Again, I'm not in the UK, I can only answer based on the US situation. I also don't think I'd qualify as a "right-winger", though I'm certainly not a left-winger either. Someone mentioned "Conservative Libertarian... I like that.

We ARE afraid! We are afraid that our government is going to try to take EVERYTHING we work for away from us... and hand it out as "welfare" to people who have no desire to work for anything. It is happening now... but only at 35% rates so far... though scheduled to go up.

We are NOT above helping out people who need help... but we are against giving stuff to people who are UNWILLING to work for anything... that think they are ENTITLED to a share my wealth. All that does is to reinforce THEIR anti-social and self-destructive behavior.
From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that!" -...
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post #36 of 62
11/12/10 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It certainly was well within the realm of possibility if things kept going where they were. Losses of many, many American jobs was an absolutely certainty regardless.

It wasn't going to liquidate, period. Even if there were large layoffs, how many people are we talking about? 100,000? That is nothing when compared to the kinds of numbers that impact an economy. Obviously it sucks for the people laid off, but somehow I doubt that we'd have had those kinds of layoffs--- even if GM went Chapter 11 on its own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

I'm sorry but I really don't think GM failing would have been a good thing in the long or short for economy and it's current situation.

I think it actually may have been very good in the long run. It would set a precedent...we don't bail out private corporations. In the short term it would be hard, especially for anyone laid off. Then again, they've had thousands of layoffs anyway, so who knows.

Quote:
But I've come to believe that conservatives think things would just magically right themselves. Do I think it's a good thing for governments to bail comapanies out? No. But in really dire straits you probably shouldn't let one of your biggest companies fail and add a lot to the unemployment numbers.

It really wouldn't add that much to the unemployment numbers. And to me, "bailout vs. no bailout" is a false dilemma. We should have continued to give them loans. They would have figured it out.

Quote:

And let's be sure about what we're talking about here. It's not just the workers in those plants and show rooms. It's the guy that sells parts and everything down the line that would be put in hardship.

That is true, but you're assuming that Chapter 11 (bankruptcy)=Chapter 7 (liquidation). It does not.
To save time, assume I know everything.
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To save time, assume I know everything.
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post #37 of 62
11/12/10 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

That's about what my parents are paying in property taxes (manageable) and owners association fees (the biggest hit, which has tripled since they bought the flat) for their three-bedroom condo in San Diego, despite having paid off their mortgage. Needless to say, they've been forced to sell the flat (and have finally been successful after two years of trying).

Renting, unfortunately, really makes much more sense in the "rich get richer" climate. Shrinking middle class, and all...

Where a middle-class couple like my parents could have afforded to work hard, save money, and use their retirement nest egg to buy a nice house and live comfortable retired lives before, Reaganomics has resulted in making that path open only for the super-rich.

I had a friend who went to HK when they were working on the airport. He mentioned the high cost for housing. Fortunately his company paid for it. He was able to buy a flat and lived there for several years. His company eventually sent him home. He returned to stay longer, but then returned to the US.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #38 of 62
11/12/10 at 12:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

2 years ago, I was laid off and I lost my house.

The difference between me and this woman is that I did not expect the government to step in and save my house or job (I did not even file for unemployment). I did not expect the bank to make everything better (although I did try working with the lender in every possible way, only to be foreclosed on anyway).

I accepted responsibility for my own decisions. We were living paycheck to paycheck. That is dangerous. You take even one of those paychecks out of the equation, and your whole world can turn upside down in an instant.

We were living on the very edge of our means, and we suffered the consequences. We have learned from that experience and are working diligently so that we are never in such a position again.

Believing in personal responsibility and accountability is not "anti-human". It is not uncaring or cruel. Quite the opposite. This belief is deeply rooted in a love of freedom and liberty and the idea that all men are created equal and should have equal opportunity to make of their lives what they will.

But it is important to understand that equal opportunity does not mean equal outcomes. Freedom exists only where people are willing to take responsibility for how they exercise that freedom.

I am a self-described "Conservative Libertarian" and I approve this message.

Know the feeling. Hope that things work out for the better--good luck.
無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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無心 The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders., Wilderness is not a luxury but a necessity of the human spirit__Edward Abbey
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post #39 of 62
11/12/10 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

It certainly was well within the realm of possibility if things kept going where they were. Losses of many, many American jobs was an absolutely certainty regardless.

Looking at GM I am willing to say that it is highly unlikely that a company that large with that much possibility for income would simply cease to exist. they would be either purchased by another company or restructured in order to survive. They did not need govnement money to go on, just to go on in the manner they were operating currently.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #40 of 62
11/12/10 at 4:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Looking at GM I am willing to say that it is highly unlikely that a company that large with that much possibility for income would simply cease to exist. they would be either purchased by another company or restructured in order to survive. They did not need govnement money to go on, just to go on in the manner they were operating currently.

That's exactly right. There was no reason for the federal government to step in. The bankruptcy courts and laws already cover what needed to be covered...except...protecting the UAW. That's what the bailout was. It was a bailout of the UAW. Under regular bankruptcy things would have been orderly (unlike what was implied by the Obama administration). Everyone involved with GM would have been handled properly and legally. The bondholders wouldn't have been fucked over like they were by the Obama administration. The unions would not have been given the sweetheart deal they got from the Obama administration. In fact the union contracts would have basically been voided and new contracts would have had to been written (if they were written at all.) Same story with the dealerships (of which GM has too many.) Furthermore, GM would have been forced by a bankruptcy court to re-structure, sell of underperforming assets and emerge as a smaller, sleeker company ready to give it another go.

The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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The state is nothing more than a criminal gang writ large.

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