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Private contractors are not the solution to our problem, they ARE the problem

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
The study found that in 33 of 35 occupations, the government actually paid billions of dollars more to hire contractors than it would have cost government employees to perform comparable services. On average, the study found that contractors charged the federal government more than twice the amount it pays federal workers.

Well, well, well. Turns out that while the salaries of private contractors do tend to be lower than those of federal employees, the total cost of the contract ends up being higher.

Quote:
For example, the study found that, on average, the federal government paid contractors $268,653 per year for computer engineering services, while government workers in the same occupation made $136,456.

For human resources management, the federal government paid contractors an annual rate of $228,488, more than twice the $111,711 to have the same services done in-house.

Where's the extra money go? Well, if I were to hazard an educated guess, it goes to the corporate bureaucracy of those who won the contract as well as the built in corporate profit margins. The same issue exists with private insurance companies and healthcare. All of the money going into the insurance company does not get paid out in medical expenses--there's a cut for the company. There's profit in denying care and there's profit in simply being the corporate middleman.

We should not privatize or contract out government services when it ends up costing us more than simply hiring federal employees.

Quote:
Paul C. Light, a professor at New York University who has studied the contractor work force, said he found the POGO study interesting. “Contracting out to the private sector is often oversold as the answer to better services, better performance and better cost,” Mr. Light said. “But doing this type of analysis shows that it’s not the case.”

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
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“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #2 of 37
What a horrendous thought that the US is squandering tax payers dollars across the board the way it is in healthcare.

I posted to this yesterday in the WTF 2 thread. They highlight some of the reasons you think might be the causes-

"The most egregious example of an outsourced occupational classification that resulted in excessive costs rather than cost savings is claims assistance and examining - administrative support positions that involve examining, reviewing, developing, adjusting, reconsidering or recommending authorization of claims by or against the federal government. To provide these services, on average, federal employees are fully compensated at $57,292 per year, private sector employees are fully compensated at $75,637 per year, and the average annual contractor billing rate is $276,598 per year. POGO found the government may therefore be paying contractors, on average, nearly 5 times what it pays government employees to perform the same services. Put another way, the government may be paying the contractor providing support services for claims assistance and examining more than it does federal judges or administrative law judges, who earn less than $200,000 per year. Contractors may be billing the government, on average, approximately 3.66 times what private sector employees are compensated for performing similar services.

Since 1999, the size of the federal employee workforce has remained relatively constant at about 2 million, while the contractor workforce has increased radically - from an estimated 4.4 million to 7.6 million in 2005. In other words, the federal contractor workforce dwarfs the federal employee workforce nearly four-fold."
~ http://www.truth-out.org/guess-what-...ees/1315928973

I couldn't read your NYTimes link because I think I got my password wrong (I don't have a subscription).
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #3 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands Sandon View Post

What a horrendous thought that the US is squandering tax payers dollars across the board the way it is in healthcare.

I posted to this yesterday in the WTF 2 thread. They highlight some of the reasons you think might be the causes-

"The most egregious example of an outsourced occupational classification that resulted in excessive costs rather than cost savings is claims assistance and examining - administrative support positions that involve examining, reviewing, developing, adjusting, reconsidering or recommending authorization of claims by or against the federal government. To provide these services, on average, federal employees are fully compensated at $57,292 per year, private sector employees are fully compensated at $75,637 per year, and the average annual contractor billing rate is $276,598 per year. POGO found the government may therefore be paying contractors, on average, nearly 5 times what it pays government employees to perform the same services. Put another way, the government may be paying the contractor providing support services for claims assistance and examining more than it does federal judges or administrative law judges, who earn less than $200,000 per year. Contractors may be billing the government, on average, approximately 3.66 times what private sector employees are compensated for performing similar services.

Since 1999, the size of the federal employee workforce has remained relatively constant at about 2 million, while the contractor workforce has increased radically - from an estimated 4.4 million to 7.6 million in 2005. In other words, the federal contractor workforce dwarfs the federal employee workforce nearly four-fold."
~ http://www.truth-out.org/guess-what-...ees/1315928973

I couldn't read your NYTimes link because I think I got my password wrong (I don't have a subscription).

Give the Federal employee more of a break to earn more money for his family and we would save lots of money by doing this instead of subsidizing the private contractors who are stealing us blind.
post #4 of 37
Tell me, does the government deserve any of the blame for paying contractors that fleece the taxpayers? Who is authorizing the funding, Mary Poppins? Private contractors are not the problem. The people that make the decisions to pay them (and the corruption in that system) is the problem.
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #5 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Tell me, does the government deserve any of the blame for paying contractors that fleece the taxpayers? Who is authorizing the funding, Mary Poppins? Private contractors are not the problem. The people that make the decisions to pay them (and the corruption in that system) is the problem.

I am going to agree here. I work for a large company and they in recent years have begun outsourcing work that I have been doing for many of the years prior. All of my management up the chain gushed about how it would save money and we would get better service and be freed up for other work that was more strategically aligned. Blah, blah, blah. I have not had any time freed really, the outsourcers cost about 3 times more than when I did the work, and the SLA they offer is nearly unenforceable. Why should this be any different if the government does it? The problem is not the contractors, it is the contract they were hired under and the terms of that contract not being fully thought out and implemented. Pie in the sky sales pitches aside, the people that wrote the contract needed to write it in such a way that it did not allow for such bull.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #6 of 37
I'm agreeing with SDW here too. The only reason these companies (e.g. Halliburton) get sweetheart deals is because of cronyism and payback in the government, and also the insane amount of power that has been claimed by the out of control lobbying system.
post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

I'm agreeing with SDW here too. The only reason these companies (e.g. Halliburton) get sweetheart deals is because of cronyism and payback in the government, and also the insane amount of power that has been claimed by the out of control lobbying system.

Exactly

<head explodes after agreeing with tonton on something this calendar year>
I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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I can only please one person per day.  Today is not your day.  Tomorrow doesn't look good either.  
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post #8 of 37
Got it, so next time the government offers me a job, ask for a contract instead!

I have heard of many problems like this. Such as if a toilet goes bad in a military base, one can not simply go to home depo (bases stationed in state) and repair it themselves, they must instead wait for a contracted/or professional person to do the job themselves which cost a lot more. Same with hospitals, where instead of getting the hospital food from the cheaper local distributor, must go through the contracts channel as well (heard this from a friend who worked doing support for idk what during one of the talks with the chief).

Businesses work the same way, like if a printer is not working, your not supposed to try to fix it since technically its not your job, you have to wait for the technician (this is mainly for bigger businesses and not so much smaller businesses/operations)

What I hate is all the applications required to do simple things. Did you know you are supposed to apply for getting your drive-way redone? ok that may be alright, but even replacing a cover for an electrical socket also requires a permit, and possibly a local inspector to come by?

I heard Obama was trying to cut some of these ridiculous permits, at least for federal government.
post #9 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001 View Post

Exactly

<head explodes after agreeing with tonton on something this calendar year>

This is indeed a monumental occasion.
post #10 of 37
Can we have a party?

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Can we have a party?

Do you have any tea?
post #12 of 37
Mormons don't drink tea. Surely you knew that!

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

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Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #13 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Mormons don't drink tea. Surely you knew that!

It's not for drinking. It's for dumping. Surely you knew that!

And I do drink Celestial Seasonings.
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Mormons don't drink tea. Surely you knew that!

Even herbal tea?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Even herbal tea?

We stay away from black tea and coffee. Herbal tea is fine. I'm partial to Aloe Blossom Herbal Tea, myself.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #16 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

We stay away from black tea and coffee. Herbal tea is fine. I'm partial to Aloe Blossom Herbal Tea, myself.

I assumed herbal tea was fine due to the absence of caffeine, but when you simply said Tea I wondered if there were more to it than that.

Of course you would not be fine with it if it is bagged by government private contractors at an exorbitant price... (does that help bring it back on topic? whatever...)
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #17 of 37
That study simply proves that government is inept when it comes to oversight. Those same private companies would NOT get away with that kind of overcharging in the private sector.
post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
Or, it shows that corporate lobbying is a major problem and that needs to be fucking eliminated. It also shows that the privatization panacea the Republicans keep recommending is nothing more than corporate kickbacks cloaked in a freedom flag.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

Or, it shows that corporate lobbying is a major problem and that needs to be fucking eliminated. It also shows that the privatization panacea the Republicans keep recommending is nothing more than corporate kickbacks cloaked in a freedom flag.

Or it shows something in between both views.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #20 of 37
Remove the immoral power the government has to steal property and redistribute it and lobbyists would cease to exist.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #21 of 37
"More than a quarter of a million security contractors have been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan since 2002, and between them they have managed to lose at least $31 billion of the $190 billion spent on their contracts and grants, or approximately 30 per cent of taxpayer funds they received, according to a government watchdog commission.

The Commission estimates that waste and fraud could possibly reach as much as $60 billion in Iraq and Afghanistan. The additional waste may develop if host countries cannot or will not sustain U.S.-funded projects and programs after the United States hands them over or reduces its support.

Shays said the Commission report lays blame at the doorsteps of both government and the contracting industry. Many of the convictions and guilty pleas for bribery, kickbacks, theft, and other offenses involve federal civilians and members of the military, he said.

He added, Some contractors have been performing tasks that only federal employees should perform, while others are doing work that is permissible but still too risky or inappropriate for contractors. And overall, there is simply too much contracting for the federal contract-management and oversight workforce to handle. From every angle, thats over-reliance.

We have seen examples of the effective use of such units. Witness Stuart Bowen, the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction. Mr. Bowen is tasked with auditing and investigating the use of taxpayer funds appropriated for the Iraq reconstruction effort. Since 2004, he has produced over 350 audits and inspections, resulting in financial benefits in excess of $1.1 billion; his investigations have yielded over 50 convictions, with recoveries in excess of $150 million via forfeiture orders, fines, and seizures.

Stuart Ackerman of Wired reports that Bowen is being stonewalled by Hilary Clinton regarding States contractor plans after US troops largely depart. There are also a few stealthy efforts by some in Congress to scuttle his whole operation. Yet it remains in place doing its job and doing it well."
~ http://www.truth-out.org/fraud-close...ars/1316110663
We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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We are nurturing a nightmare that will haunt our children, and kill theirs.
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post #22 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Remove the immoral power the government has to steal property and redistribute it and lobbyists would cease to exist.

I'm sure there would be no reason for corporations to lobby other corporations. I'm just sure of it.
post #23 of 37
As long as the non-aggression principle is adhered to, I see no problem with that. It's called voluntaryism.

In the current system, the lobbyists are attempting to influence government on how to use its monopoly on violence for their corporations' benefit.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #24 of 37
Thread Starter 
You're just a buzzword machine, aren't you?

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #25 of 37
As you are so fond of saying: words have meanings.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #26 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

As you are so fond of saying: words have meanings.

And you like to alter them all the time.

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply

 

“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of starstuff.” 
-Sagan
Reply
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by BR View Post

And you like to alter them all the time.

Here's where I call his ideas of coercion-free business relationships "Utopian", and where he points me to a Mormon Libertarian site to tell me I don't know what "Utopia" means.
post #28 of 37
Here's a solution. How about we reduce the size of government and not contract and not hire. Return savings to millionaires, billionaires and corporate jet owners.
post #29 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Here's where I call his ideas of coercion-free business relationships "Utopian", and where he points me to a Mormon Libertarian site to tell me I don't know what "Utopia" means.

Who cares if it is a Mormon libertarian or a igthiest libertarian. What is the difference? Is there a difference?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #30 of 37
Ironically, utahliberty.org is not a "Mormon Libertarian" site.

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply

Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

(I prefer the tumult of liberty to the quiet of servitude.)

Reply
post #31 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Ironically, utahliberty.org is not a "Mormon Libertarian" site.

Yes, but even if it was, why should that make a difference? Tonton?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
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NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #32 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzguru View Post

Ironically, utahliberty.org is not a "Mormon Libertarian" site.

Wait, wait, WAIT!! Isn't Utah filled with nothing but Mormons? What are you trying to hide? . Obviously if it has Utah in the name it must be a branch of the Mormon church. right?
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #33 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Yes, but even if it was, why should that make a difference? Tonton?

Because I know what the definition of Utopia is and what Utopian is. And even if I didn't, I would check the definition you know... in a fucking DICTIONARY!?
post #34 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

Because I know what the definition of Utopia is and what Utopian is. And even if I didn't, I would check the definition you know... in a fucking DICTIONARY!?

I don't think the context fits what you just said. I am looking for it though to be sure...
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #35 of 37
Found it, and you are taking it way out of context... http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=38
He was pointing you to a viewpoint that was posted on that website:

Quote:
The belief that we can grant a monopoly on violence to an institution, along with the authority to determine whether its own actions are permissable — in other words, to grant limitless power to an entity and then say, “Limit yourself” — that is the truly utopian and unrealistic fantasy of a naive mind.

He was not defining Utopian, but giving an example of what he saw as Utopian and Unrealistic views held by certain ideological groups.

Sheesh, do you purposely try to misunderstand and misrepresent or is it just a gift? \

Oh and from the website that was posted from: http://utahliberty.org/content/1052
Quote:
Utah Liberty Alliance seeks to bring about a free society through journalism and activism, starting right here at home.

This project is not affiliated with any political party, the LDS Church, or the Tea Party movement.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
post #36 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoahJ View Post

Found it, and you are taking it way out of context... http://forums.appleinsider.com/showp...0&postcount=38
He was pointing you to a viewpoint that was posted on that website:



He was not defining Utopian, but giving an example of what he saw as Utopian and Unrealistic views held by certain ideological groups.

Sheesh, do you purposely try to misunderstand and misrepresent or is it just a gift? \

Oh and from the website that was posted from: http://utahliberty.org/content/1052

In the same exact post he said I didn't know what Utopian meant. He wasn't giving me an example. He was defining it.
post #37 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonton View Post

In the same exact post he said I didn't know what Utopian meant. He wasn't giving me an example. He was defining it.

So we disagree, the only one who really knows is Jazzguru himself. And you likely won't take his word for it either.
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
NoahJ
"It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err." - Mahatma Gandhi
Reply
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