San Francisco police fire gun, close school in chase to recover stolen iPhone - Page 2

 

I'm a law-and-order guy myself (not talking about the TV show), but to have an officer's sidearm fired over a stolen phone (and ensuing school lockdown) is just a crazy escalation. I'm glad that they found these guys and might be able to find some leads through this. And I'm not second-guessing the officer either. But the situation seemed to have gotten out of control in a hurry.

 Some of what you post on here is pretty ridiculous. I almost get the impression that you use the forum to vent.

You may think this, but in terms of protecting property with a gun, you would be prosecuted in most states.

One would think that smartphone thieves would be in the habit of powering them off.

 

Doesn't everybody use the internet to vent?

 

Sometimes I joke, but most of the time, I do mean what I write.

 

As for your second sentence, you're right that in most states, such self defense would probably be prosecuted. Maybe I should pack up all of my Apple gear and move to Texas.

Desireable items will always be stolen. Theft will always have an element of risk. Risk will always have occasions to escalate to violence.

Sorry you can't shoot someone down here just to protect your property...now if you said you thought your life was in danger, well now we have a reason to change clips.
Edited by diplication - 8/27/12 at 10:54pm

 

I'm of the opinion that every robbery has the potential to be deadly and they should be treated as such. There are many robberies that you can read about where somebody was gunned down or killed over a very small amount. If it were me, I'd say that it's better to be on the safe side and completely eliminate the threat.

"The suspect attempting to jump a gate into the church's school campus turned toward police with his hand concealed," (emphasis mine)

 

It got out of hand before the police were even notified.

Criminals with guns committing armed robbery = out of hand.

They are smartphone thieves, not smart, phone thieves.

Agreed, but just make sure the bullets fired at the robber weren't fired from a great distance and didn't hit them in the back. The truth is I hate thieves, but I don't want to shoot anyone. I just want them to be caught and punished. On the other hand, anyone who shoots a thief deserves a medal. Okay, so I'm conflicted.

If I'm ever robbed, I'm going to try and encourage the thief to steal my iphone. "I'm sorry, I don't carry cash... Please, take my iPhone instead!" That way I can hopefully call the police as I pull up "Find My iPhone" on another device, and dispatch them to the location of the robber. That is, if the robbery isn't wrapped up by a shot to the face!

 

I bought a bag of Pink Lady Apples yesterday.  AI should do an article on it.  I am sure the world needs to know.

It's not poverty that is the issue--at least not directly. Terrorists come from what once was the middle class.

 

Are you guys seriously interested in reading it from some experts' opinions or are you simply rhetorically requesting information that you believe to not exist?

 

I can tell you right now that my doctorate is in criminology, law, and society and I know multiple credible sources from where you can obtain this perspective. While my expertise is more related to my other posts on this board I had to take quite a few theory classes from some of the leading scholars in the world to get to where I am today so I'm both qualified to opine on the subject as well as teach about it but I don't want to dig around for citations you're not going to bother reading. I know off-hand some books you could start looking into.

 

Here's one that will hopefully suit your litmus test of a credible source...http://www.amazon.com/Globalization-Its-Discontents-Joseph-Stiglitz/dp/0393051242

 

Please read Joseph Stiglitz' bio before you cast him off as some sort of leftist liberal. Rarely does someone from the top come out and break it down and break us (our Brenton Wood's organizations: IMF and World Bank) off like he does in this book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_Its_Discontents

 

If going full boat is more your style, pick this one up: http://www.amazon.com/Rogue-States-Force-World-Affairs/dp/0896086119

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state

 

And although this book does not directly address terrorism I'm going to plug it anyway for personal reasons

http://www.amazon.com/Crime-Punishment-America-Elliott-Currie/dp/0805060162

 

All of them will provide citations for further study.

 

 

I think I've laid quite a few cards on the table here so I hope you at least examine what I'm playing with before finalizing your decision about the body of evidence on this subject.

 

Am I the only person who remembered the article in AI from 16 August, 'AuthenTec "Smart Sensor" appears key to Apple's urgent acquisition'? Maybe Apple IS doing something. Maybe part of Apple's urgency in acquiring this firm is to get the technology in Apple products as soon as possible. Maybe even in time for the "next" iPhone? (Ok, a stretch at this late date, but…?)

I had something similar happen to me two weeks ago here in Chicago. I was at a coffee shop minding my own business with my iPhone sitting on the table. Two guys game into the store and walked over to me asking for money and shoving papers in my face and being obnoxious. I kept telling them to leave and eventually they did, and about 30sec later I realized my iPhone was gone. I ran outside to chase them and they were already in a getaway car speeding down the street. I used Find my iPhone and had the phone immediately wiped and bricked. I could have tracked it but I have so much work stuff on there it wasn't worth the risk. Luckily after a lot of back and forth AT&T allowed me to get another phone at upgrade price even though I have another year on my contract. Just got it today.

What they really need is the ability to completely wipe the phone and still have find my iPhone work. Somehow allow it to wipe everything but that feature.

Well now iDevices don't require syncing to a computer to work but I've brought it up in multiple places, including Apple's theft division and customer care, that I strongly disagree with their decision not to enable tracking and blocking via iTunes and hardware ID.

 

I bought the launch iPad and it was stolen shortly after Find My iPhone became a free service but I didn't have it enabled because I wasn't using it often enough by then that I was worried it was needlessly draining the battery :(

You're completely mis-stating the situation.

They officer didn't fire a handgun over a stolen phone. They fired a handgun over a criminal who had already committed armed robbery who appeared to be drawing a weapon after being told to 'freeze'. And the school lock down was not because of a stolen phone, but rather because there were armed robbers in the area and a shot fired. Both are perfectly reasonable.

Don't let AI distract you into thinking it was about a phone - it wasn't. It was about armed robbery and threats to the police on the scene.

Where is "down here"? Defense of property laws depend on the state and the situation. In some states (think Texas), the rules are quite a bit looser. Here's the info for TX:
http://www.self-defender.net/law3.htm
"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect his property to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, theft during the nighttime or criminal mischief during the nighttime, and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means."

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to pervent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"

Heck, in TX, you can legally shoot someone in the back even if they're fleeing under some circumstances.

ETA:
Since the case in this thread was in CA, it's worth pointing out CA's laws on defense of property:
http://www.lacriminaldefenseattorney.com/Legal-Dictionary/D/DA-DIR/Defense-of-Property.aspx
"Defense of property is a justification defense that can be used in defending one's property from theft, destruction, or trespass where the defendant has a reasonable belief that the property is in immediate danger. Only reasonable non-deadly force can be used in defending one's property. Deadly force (a violent action known to create a substantial risk of serious bodily harm or death) may never be used to defend property. However, by virtue of other defenses (self-defense, defense of others), deadly force may be used where unlawful interference with property is accompanied by a threat of deadly force or where the defender reasonably believes an entry will be made or attempted in his dwelling by someone intending to commit a felony therein. "

But, again, that's not what was involved here. The police fired a weapon not because of the theft of property but because they thought the person was pulling a weapon on them.

Good idea. Resetting the phone via itunes should not remove the 'find my phone' capability unless the password holder specifically allows it. That way, someone who steals your phone would not be able to remove 'find my phone', but if you want to sell your phone to someone, you could.
Edited by jragosta - 8/28/12 at 6:35am

I think that Airplane Mode is sufficient for airlines and the FAA.

Not during takeoff and landing. The device has to be completely turned off.

Perhaps there is room for a third party vendor to step in here with some kind of key device that plugs into the USB port and encrypts restorations.

 

One doesn't necessarily need to prevent turning the phone off if one can prevent restoring the phone to a stock or custom firmware.

 

 

Of course these are all elaborate schemes when by far the easiest would have been for AT&T to retain EMEI numbers of their customers' stolen phones and run new customers' devices against the database.

Especially when AT&T was the only game in town. While there are ways to change hardware ID's, flash firmwares, and alter EMEIs, or even simply shipping a device across the ocean, the fact remains that reducing the ease at which stolen devices could be recycled would have drastically reduced overall theft.

I hope you've learned not to leave your phone lying around in the future.

 

Down here is Texas. And you're right, but you have to watch those qualifiers. (see bolded phrases above)

 

 

I understand that, but I was not really talking to the specific situation.  Though that does remind me of a funny situation a few years ago, a local policeman pulled his gun on a man naked in public - I wonder where he thought he was concealing his weapon?

That happens here in Portland Oregon as well. Only the police have a bad reputation for shooting said naked person as well.

Yes, there are obviously qualifiers. Even in Texas, you can't walk out on the street and shoot someone for walking too close to your parked car.

But you said:
"Sorry you can't shoot someone down here just to protect your property."
I was pointing out that under some circumstances, you CAN.

 

REALLY?

Oh BTW, I love how AI talks about Find My iPhone as if it were the only of its kind in the industry.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsphone/en-us/howto/wp7/basics/find-a-lost-phone.aspx

Sure. But since no one would ever want to steal a Windows phone, that's largely irrelevant.

 

U mad bro?