Apple execs Scott Forstall and John Browett to leave company [u] - Page 3

Whew. The photos of sketchy-looking Dixons stores gave me nightmares. I don't think anyone ever had a great feeling about that appointment.

 

And as much as I respect Scott Forstall and am concerned about his leaving, I'm really happy that Jony Ive is in charge of human interface at Apple. You could see the tension between Ive's simplicity and Forstall's love of stuff like the leather-bound calendar app and the wacky new podcasts app. 

 

The logical successor is Federighi. Craig is perfect for the role.

 

I suspect it is multiple things: Maps. The politician that he is reported to be (maybe he played the wrong hand under Tim). That he doesn't work and play well with others (reportedly.) And maybe he wanted to go anyway. This actually doesn't surprise me at all.

I am not so sure that is a correct assessment. I may be wrong to but I would guess Ive would be less flexible on the software than Forstall. Wasn't it Ive's and Job's bent on iBooks looking like a real book? I still wonder why I can't scroll up (or down) the page like a PDF when reading a book. Would be much easier reading in bed.

 

All I am saying is that I could see Forstall going toe-to-toe with Ive's and everyone knows how that is going to end.

 

I nominate you for Darwin 2012.

 

Very funny :) 

I agree with the rest of his comment, too. It ain't one or the other, its well done or not. At the moment it is a mess.

Thats big news regarding Scott. Apparently not well liked but he goes waaaay back with Jobs and Next. Seems like he's done a heck of a job shepherding iOS into full bloom. Hope that this was born of his own need to start something new, something that will dovetail with Apple in a good way. 

 

... or maybe just some r & r ...

Well, keep in mind he had to be fired to come into his own too.

I agree. And you can add the debacle that was Podcasts. I'm not certain those were his doing, but it would make sense that those teams were under him. There was a lot of half-baked iOS app development happening. iBooks is a mess, Game Center? Nobody uses it.

Edited by Carthusia - 10/29/12 at 3:55pm

Anybody heard the 'Tim Cook - Why are you still here?' story?

 

Tim Cook, Scott Forstall and a bunch of Apple executives are sitting in a room discussing the after-effects of the mapping 'fiasco'. Tim turns to Scott and says: "This is not particular impressive, Scott. Your failure to be a team player and follow your own ambitions, aside, this has embarrassed Apple and tarnished it's reputation."

 

Scott: "I'm sorry, Tim, but you try replacing Google Maps within a 3 month time frame and see if you can do any better. I guarantee that if anybody else in the room had tried this you'd have a large pile of something unpleasant to jump your mountain bike over."

 

Tim Cook: "Okay. We're going to need someone to address this. I need you to get on a plane and fly to 'Mapsgate' so this can be resolved as soon as possible.".

 

Scott Forstall: "Okay. I'll get right on it."

 

Other business issues are discussed for half an hour or so but, when Tim notices Scott still sitting at the table, he turns to him and, with his piercing, laser-beam stare that Steve bequeathed to him, asks: "Why are you still here?"

 

Scott: "Sorry, Tim. I didn't realise you wanted me to go immediately. I'll get going now. What do you need done and where do you want me to go?"

 

Tim Cook: "Mapsgate, Scott. Get lost."

I think if your looking for a switch up in iOS, which I also am, I think the loss of Scott is actually bad news.

I have been feeling that for the last two years that he and Apple must have had a fresh new take on the iOS and been developing it slowly over the years. How could they not be? iOS is great and instantly recognizable but the mobile market grows fast and changes more frequently than the desktop market, so I don't think they could not have been prepping something new.

My guess is that with mobile phones becoming more powerful and storage prices dropping, they will eventually close the gap differences between iOS and OSX or whatever their new desktop OS will be. May take a few years but this seems logical

Now I'm not saying that they will be identical, but . . .

With Scott gone now, I doubt any drastic changes will happen next soon. . I think they will keep the ship on course and restructure or tweak things another year or so until they can figure when the next big jump I'm iOS is.

I thought Scott had the best stage persona over anyone currently at Apple, and from what I read he seemed to understand or at least emulate Steve's direction in a leadship role.

But who knows what's going on really. It will be an interesting time at Apple.

Hopefully Apple can still amaze us while keeping in tradition with the design and functionality we come to expect from them.

I have to say, it feels like now that iPhone 5 has shipped, we are truly entering the post Steve Jobs era which is both sad and frighting.

But it's can also be exciting.

Man I miss Steve.

 

 

What proof do you have that "they forced him to rush"? How do you know he wasn't the one telling everyone else on the leadership team that Maps was ready before it was mature?

Good, big dick Browett (what were they thinking hiring him!) and Scott Forstall are going. Hopefully now customer service will take precedence over profit margins in Apples retail space again. And iOS will now have a chance to get the kind of sleek design excellence Apple's hardware products have - that leather bound calender app makes me cringe! Not to mention those 'enhancements' they made to Apple TV's interface that would not of passed muster if SJ was still around.

Edited by 1983 - 10/29/12 at 3:34pm

 

Not Ive. It was Jobs and Forstall. Ive is on the anti-skeumorphism wing of Apple, as far as I know.

 

Ive might go to far in the other direction, or not. We'll see.

 

iOS is awesome and the best out there. It can be streamlined a bit, for sure, but it really is good. If you get stuck with Android for a while, you'll quickly appreciate just how good iOS is. I don't know how much credit Forstall should get for the quality of iOS though. Jobs was certainly on top of it for the releases at least through 4.x, and probably further.

 

Someday, a few years from now, we will have a better idea. It's super hard to know, from the outside, how valuable these guys are. Browett I think we all agree needed to go, but that's an exceptional case.

  This is sort of expected.  Things had changed at Apple from the time S. Jobs had to make a very serious decision about Jony Ive.   You have to believe that there were some butting of heads between Ive and Forstall.   Jobs surely thought that since Scott had been his right hand man for so long, he would always be there.  Perhaps thinking that even after his death, perhaps Forstall would feel about Apple the same way Jobs had felt.  He probably wanted to.   But when the arguments started between Ive needing the phone to look a certain way, and Forstall wanting things a little different for his work to fit in.   Something had to give.   Once Jobs gave Ive the 'Golden Pass' with nobody able to overstep his decisions.  You know, especially Forstall felt betrayed.  Once Jobs died, and since it became apparent that Cook would be the CEO for a very long, long time.  That probably left a sour taste on Forstall's mouth.

  Then especially when another Executive left, and then came back, with a big, big salary. And that for supervising the work others were putting so much work on.

  If you add all that up. Plus you have to believe that what was gonna be needed from Forstall to 'constantly' be upgrading the OS in order to stay in front of the 'Jelly Bean's and the 'Ice Cream Sandwiches' that  Google would spit out at a fast rate.  You have to believe that Scott Forstall stayed up a few nights thinking, "Is this all worth it anymore".  

  Guess this lets us know.    Nope.

 

I'm not sure where Scott was on this, but Johnny is definitely on the record for his dislike for the UI elements that look like real elements - game centre, calendar etc.

 

Finally, a response to the Forstall thing that isn't completely driven by pure ignorance and spewing hate for his supposed character flaws! Nothing like starting up to prove what you got. It's a harsh game.

 

Because you haven't installed iBooks 3.0 yet. 

Quote:

I liked Forstall's presentation skills, and he obviously did a HUGE amount for Apple, but we have all read stories how he had a big head, and was a pain in the ass to work with. 

 

Like others have noted in this thread, Scott sounds more like Jobs (brilliant, presentation skills, big head, pain in the ass) than Sir Jon does, and I wouldn't bet against his return some day to "right the Ship of State"; it may well be that Tim is fulfilling a promise made to the late great CEO to protect his protege if internal strife rises against him in the "corridors of power", as is highly likely given the Mapsgate (and possibly the Skeumorphism) fiascos, hence his moving Scott closer to the aegis of his (Tim's) influence. That said, Apple does not need Forstall as an adversary in a rival company - OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE THEY DO...

Edited by airmanchairman - 10/29/12 at 3:54pm

 

Here's a good (recent) article on iOS skeuomorphism. Here's a snippet:

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt

I know Forestall wasn't popular with the other VP's at Apple and i find him rather odd, but i hope there more to this than Mapgate which i think was over blown by a lazy press eager to drive a negative story on the top selling gadget of the year. the new Maps has worked mostly great for me and as advertised. The new iOS Contacts app on the other hand is completely unusable..

Oh yeah and that empty suit Browett can et the door hit him on the way out.

 

I don't think "Mapgate" was all that bad either, but it clearly was bad enough for TC to stand up and apologize.  It's possible that TC planned that all along, but I doubt it.  I think it was an unpleasant surprise for him.

Forstall has been an increasing problem. He is apparently not a well liked person. Furthermore, his efforts in iOS development have, in my opinion, been underwhelming. Siri does remarkably very little more than it did when introduced as a Beta. (Now that I think of it, that release of it as Beta had to be a black mark against him).
Mr. Browett did not seem well suited to his job or the company.
To hear that Mr. Ive will pay some attention to the software interface design is wonderful news.
Hopefully, these moves will eliminate some internal sources of conflict and make for a better functioning team in the coming couple of years.

I like all the trolls jumping in here proclaiming Forstall was 'holding iOS back'. Unbelievable. Didn't SJ promise him that he'd 'always have a place' at Apple before he left? I guess not. 

Forstall was the only guy I could see carrying SJ's torch, and his presence at the company is what made SJ's departure/death easier to swallow. I always saw him as 'getting it' more than anyone else. I really want to know who initiated this departure, and the reasons for it. Everything being spouted here and other places online are pure bullshit speculation. I want to know the real reasons. Apple's speed of innovation post-iOS has been the fastest and most intense in its history, despise what all the short-sighted people here say. 

 

It's also disgusting that he's being lumped in with the John Browett departure, putting them in the same boat, as if theres any comparison between the two. And not a single statement from Cook of thanks, etc,  or aknowledgement to Forstall in that release for his massive role at Apple. Just a 'shifting' of management. What a lack of class and respect for what the guy has done.  Whats worse are the armchair analysts here proclaiming how Forstall has been an 'increasing problem' at Apple, as if they know the first thing about anything that goes o there, talking completely out of their ass. The attacks on his character and appearance are also classy. Keep it up guys. 

Edited by Slurpy - 10/29/12 at 3:42pm

Browett was obviously not going to last. He was a mistake and no one could really deny that. I think Forstall must have been a more complicated matter. He was reputed to see himself as Jobs protege but without Jobs charisma. Talented and egotistical and not afraid to step on those below and stab those beside and ahead. But without the ability to inspire that sort of personality without a Jobs to keep him in check is going to bump heads with everyone.

 

 

facetious |fəˈsēSHəs|

adjectivetreating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.DERIVATIVESfacetiously adverb,facetiousness nounORIGIN late 16th cent. (in the general sense ‘witty, amusing’): from French facétieux, from facétie, from Latin facetia ‘jest,’from facetus ‘witty.’

A blessing that Browett is leaving.  I agree.

If we're talking king-of-france like behavior, Forstall is probably more like Jobs, but that's not what made Apple products cool. Jobs made Apple products cool through presentation and persuasiveness. Ive does the same. (of course, no one will ever beat Jobs' RDF). Forstall is not cool, though, not in any way.

He is "on the record"? As far as I know it was one journalist, from the Guardian I think, who interpreted a grimace of Ive's when he was asked him a question about s'morphs. Could have been that Ive thought the question was rude or impertinent, not that he had anything particular against the interface design.

The meme took off from there, everyone parroting what they thought Ive thought, based on what this journalist thought.

If I'm wrong, I'd love to see "the record."

Edit: Gruber's post on this has more to say about it. It was Richmond from the Telegraph, and it's his opinion, clearly. There's other hearsay that Gruber notes.

http://daringforeball.net
Edited by Flaneur - 10/29/12 at 3:48pm

I'm shocked Forstall is leaving

I don't think that assessment warranted that 'fool' comment. Very many execs have made incredible contributions and just, I dunno, kinda lose it a bit. No one here really knows what happened. It's almost as if Scott was out spending his millions and lost focus. Just joking-but something happened. Perhaps it was the loss of Steve, perhaps he didn't want his team merged with the Mac team, perhaps his team couldn't keep up with the needed pace of innovation. I dunno: I simply have been increasingly happy with OS X and decreasingly happy with iOS.

 

Here's just a minor one:

 

Reminders had a great feature in iOS 5 where, once in Reminders app, I could swipe right-to-left to switch between different Reminders categories (Personal, Professional, etc.). It was brilliant, so I began using Reminders each day, throughout the day, for the first time. Now, in iOS 6, whenever I change a category, I need to tap a drop-down list icon, tap the category, and edit the reminder. It seems minor, but in many instances, the UI sees to have gotten less simple and more complicated. It appears to be a trend I noticed. Since those decisions go to Scott's hands-on leadership, or dearth thereof, the buck stops with him.

 

And guess what, if Eddy Cue and his team can't get iTunes into shape with iTunes 11, I'll be left with more of an impression that Apple has been unable to tie-up loose UI and UX ends in their internet software and services. 

Edited by Carthusia - 10/29/12 at 4:20pm

Cue up Yeah Yeah Yeahs songs "Maps" and "Heads Will Roll."

Some have compared Forstall to Steve Jobs in his attention to detail and ability to piss everyone off.  While I'm surprised that he's leaving, I'll look at it as a glass half-full and simply say that Forstall (like Jobs) will be gone, he'll start up some other technology company (like NeXT) which will be eventually bought by Apple and integrated / replaced as their next OS (OSXI??) and (again) a new world-order will blossom.

As far as Browett goes, I hope the door hits his a$$ on the way out.  Good riddance.  Tim Cook could/should have done better in picking the retail guy.

Perhaps MSNBC will hire Forstall as a body double for Rachel Maddow 

 

I had just begun to use the Reminders app in iOS 5. In iOS6, however, the ability to swipe right-to-left between Reminders lists was lost. Now, I need to tap a drop down list in the upper-left corner and the switch to a new list-ruined it for me. That lost iOS 5 feature borked my workflow.

 

In your opinion then, Scott is unlikely to engage in activities that would harm Apple...

 

SolipsismX, you're quiet!

The question is, is Federighi as capable (if not more so) as Forstall in leading such a hugely important OS team?

Who's Time Cook?

 

As a former colleague of Scott's the comment is that of a fool. As a former colleague of his at NeXT and Apple the notion that one person [outside of Steve] makes the design decisions for the architecture and UI implementations is insulting to the teams of folks that do the heavy lifting. One only realizes how highly focused, detailed oriented and passionate the teams are at Apple, relative to the rest of the industry, after one leaves to try out new digs.

 

Most people in the industry are hacks. Most computer science majors consider themselves Engineers. They aren't. They never will be. Completely different disciplines. Most people in this industry are ill-suited to being in this industry, much like the Medical world. People go where the money flows and it often results in a complete waste of time for them and confrontations with driven people who have zero tolerance for ill-suited bodies filling up slots other people more well-suited should occupy.

 

Being both a M.E. and CS gives me that unique understanding.

 

Scott is a driven person. Whatever he decides to focus on I'm sure it will probably center around his work with Siri and other human-machine relationships.

 

There are tens of thousands of jobs at Apple where you will never come across Scott or anyone inside Apple Engineering. If you want in, bring your passion or step aside. It's very simple.