Originally posted by tonton
Excuse me? that's exactly my reasoning. No one has the (moral) right to object to something that affects them in no way whatsoever.
So since lack of gay marriage affects you in now way whatsover you can't voice an complaint about it.
Enjoy your own asinine reasoning applied toward you? Good enjoy.
Read my signature again.
You've obviously overestimated your own importance again.
Please. If someone wants to claim that gay marriage does harm society, go aheand and explain how, and object on that basis.
Think about the fact that you, Mr. Tolerant in your own overinflated stature, have to use the phrase gay marriage because you, I, and everyone else understand that marriage means man and woman. You have to apply gay to modify the word marriage to a new understanding.
Also you apply the criteria of harm to justify keeping the definition of marriage I already have instead of substituting another. I don't have to prove harm. I don't believe homosexual people are going to harm me. That criteria is your own. I've stated quite clearly that my criteria is the right to self-govern. I don't have to prove harm to receive that right. I don't even have to prove an interest. It is an inalienable right.
But you don't appear to be saying that (maybe you actually believe that it does harm society, but you're avoiding making that claim explicit, because you can't back it up with facts).
You are correct that I am not saying that. As I mentioned earlier, I don't have to piss to mark some territory of interest to be able to express my views about how society should run. I also don't have to be afraid, claim harm or express some sort of fear. Your views are the antithesis of democracy. The right to self-govern isn't granted in instances where you have an interest or don't or where someone wants to claim you shouldn't have a say because they think it isn't about you.
But clearly you agree with me that you think allowing gays to marry will somehow affect your own marriage. Please explain exactly how that is.
First it has nothing to do with me or my marriage.
I've stated clearly in this thread and others that taking one form, especially one with so much historical and religious baggage and trying to make it one size fits all is very unproductive. Heterosexual couples are abandoning marriage already for the exact reason that many of them no longer fit in nor desire the traditional constraints it demands. They don't want man as breadwinner, woman as caregiver and these roles assigned for life. Yet watch the marriage break-up and watch the family courts attempt to impose those exact roles.
It is more productive to discuss how to get the government to accept multiple relationship types rather than arguing that everyone should find a way to be stuffed into one word.
Really? Can gays have a sacred recognition of their union? Can they have a LEGAL recognition of their union? Those things are rights. Can gays or lesbians adopt a child and start a family? Can they visit their loved one in hospital? Can they inherit their loved one's property if no sepcific instructions have been left? These are ALL rights YOU have that gay couples do not. "They have the EXACT same rights I have." is a lie. Plain and simple.
I have known many gay people who were married. When they married, they had to follow the exact same criteria I did when I got married. As for adopting a child, last I checked only Florida totally bans gay adoption. California allows joint adoption and most others allow adoption by a single gay parent with a secondary process to add the partner as a second parent. It isn't illegal but does involve a bit more work. I can't imagine someone not being allowed to see their loved one in a hospital. So many people simply live together now who are hetero as well as homosexual that there are loads of domestic partner laws.
You can leave your property to whomever you want with a will. You don't have to be married. You can leave it to your cat. As for if specific instructions, estates can be contested even if married and even with a will. Marriage wouldn't resolve that matter, but estate planning would.
As for your rights, you may have overestimated them. Try dying and watch as your girlfriend and ex-wife both fight over your estate.
So tell me, how DO gays exercise their right to visit their loved one in hospital in the exact same manner that you do?
Yes. I think you must be watching too many early 80's movies or something.
I'll hit the rest in the morning.