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post #161 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

The possibility that data storage and retrieval systems -- which retrieve data sets with their own separate purpose -- could be formed by slow, gradual "mutations" is completely off the reservation. This is the end of evolution as we know it.

Whats this based on? A lack of understanding of the concepts of evolution? A different belief in the age of the universe/earth? yes, it aint possible in a several thousand year old earth/universe, but with estimates based on more recent and more compelling evidence, the great spans of the galaxies are believed to be immensely old. With such time that these mutations could have occurred, and perhaps are likely to have occurred. Considering that smaller points of evolution through minor mutations have been seen, and are verifiable, isn't is reasonable to extrapolate that into larger contexts? Isn't that a more reasonable solution compared to introducing an unverifiable entity (the higher power) into the system?

The data sets, as shetline brings up, don't necessarily have a specific purpose. Their purpose is often a result of their interaction with other natural entities. Not something they were driven to, but a result of what was forced apon them. Theres a certain beauty and wonderment when one thinks of everything as being completely natural material.
post #162 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by trumptman

You can't figure out that I won't change my mind because of your feeble attempt to guilt me into making a logical leap? I'm inflexible because I won't say that criticism of science = religious endorsement.

At least it doesn't sound like you're trying to pretend the stickers aren't a targetted criticism of evolution -- a large part of what I've been saying is to argue against those who feign belief that these stickers are nothing more than blandly neutral statements of innocent fact with no agenda whatsoever.

So, we're in agreement at least to the extent that reading into these stickers an intent to single out evolution and to cast doubt upon evolution in particular is not an over-reach, is not "mind reading", but a very reasonable interpretation of the wording in the context in which is occurs?

The religious intent part comes in not so much by looking at the singling out of evolution in and of itself, which is only part of the point I'm making. There is also the layer of meaning added by the effort to get the stickers into the books in the first place. Why was it deemed so important to go out of the way to deliver this message, and by whom?

It's important to note that what the courts are intervening to prevent here is not free expression by individuals acting as individuals within our society, but actions taken by a public institution, an organ of the state. What might be called judicial overreach when applied to the actions or expressions of an individual citizen can be basic prudence when applied to the actions of a public institution.

That the main force being getting those disclaimer stickers into those text books is largely, nearly exclusively, based on a religious agenda can't be denied. Yes, you can always find a few rare examples -- "Joe's a Buddhist and Sally's an atheist and they think evolution is bad science too" -- but not only do a lot of those examples fail to pan out when further examined, they're also beside the point.

A lot of the effort to end slavery was religiously motivated, and the cause was often argued on a religious basis. Did that make ending slavery a state-sponsored religious endorsement? Not at all. Regardless of what motivation drove many to champion abolition, a case could easily be made for the justice of abolition based on secular principles, and the enactment of abolition, the worthiness of making that effort, could stand apart from religious precepts.

In the case of these disclaimer stickers, however, what's left when you take away the religious motivation behind the stickers? What worthy result remains? A few, very rare individuals expressing doubt about the quality of the science of evolution? Every single scientific theory and (what some would call "so-called") scientific fact has doubters. We don't provide warning stickers on everything else to cover every one of those doubts, and there are no powerful organized movements by all of those other doubters to do so.

Since we're not regulating individual freedom here, but the actions of a public institution, we need to err on the side of caution in preventing religious endorsement by the state. A cautious approach has to account for the fact that the greatly religiously-motivated effort behind making the effort to get those stickers into those text books in and of itself adds a layer of meaning to what the stickers convey, and that meaning is one which endorses a particular religious point of view. Without that religious fervor, the effort would never be made -- that fervor is as much a part of the message as the words of the stickers themselves.
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #163 of 186
The War on Scientic Theories rages on! I'm sure our nation is better off with all the undermining of scientific research the far-right whackos are hellbent on doing.
"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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"The selfishness of Ayn Rand capitalism is the equivalent of intellectual masturbation -- satisfying in an ego-stroking way, but an ethical void when it comes to our commonly shared humanity."
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post #164 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuh Freak

The data sets, as shetline brings up, don't necessarily have a specific purpose. Their purpose is often a result of their interaction with other natural entities. Not something they were driven to, but a result of what was forced apon them. Theres a certain beauty and wonderment when one thinks of everything as being completely natural material.

Correct, to a point. Getting the data, and then building the retrieval/storage systems in place is where evolution overreaches itself. Once the you get the information, fine, you can have your speciation. But information just 'evolving' -- that's nowhere in the domain of brute atoms and energy.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #165 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

But information just 'evolving' -- that's nowhere in the domain of brute atoms and energy.

Yes, if you combine often badly-done math with a concept of "information" tied to an emotionally and theologically motivated connection between information and "purpose". There are no problems with atoms and energy doing amazing things otherwise.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #166 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Hey Hey! Hey!!

My rumored connections to the Church of LDS are greatly exaggerated.

There seems to have been an inversion shift mutation in here. Seems that D and S reversed. Dont worry, it happens All the time Let me explain...


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

But information just 'evolving' -- that's nowhere in the domain of brute atoms and energy.

So, I recall that four years after we met, have you yet given a biologically correct explanation of what 'information' really is?

So, seeing as you're an expert in the field- enough to claim that this elusive 'information' cannot evolve, perhaps you'd like to explain away the following list and tell us why they dont count as the evolution of 'information' in the DNA.

> Point Shift Mutation
> Frame Shift Mutation
> Deletions
> Insertions
> Inversions
> Polyploidism
> Trisomny

For starters. And if youre feeling really honest, why dont you make an attempt to justify to me why 'noble lies' are better than telling the truth?
post #167 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

> Point Shift Mutation
> Frame Shift Mutation
> Deletions
> Insertions
> Inversions
> Polyploidism
> Trisomny

Aren't Noble lies just inert truths?

Look, the information systems are a thing just as the bodily structures are a thing. All of those above things could be great for rearranging bodily functions -- slowly -- over time, but to propose what those things do to information systems -- slowly -- over time, is not an adequate explanation -- pretty much the opposite.

In any case, reducing the information systems to brute biology is about as testable as the argument for a multiverse.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #168 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Aren't Noble lies just inert truths?

Look, the information systems are a thing just as the bodily structures are a thing. All of those above things could be great for rearranging bodily functions -- slowly -- over time, but to propose what those things do to information systems -- slowly -- over time, is not an adequate explanation -- pretty much the opposite.

In any case, reducing the information systems to brute biology is about as testable as the argument for a multiverse.

Why does biology have to be "brutish"? Isn't biology, too, one of God's creations? Why isn't it therefore splendid?

And why is attempting to explicate the detailed workings of this splendid process anything but a celebration of the wonderment of the universe and our capacity to seek?

If you wish to impute "purpose" to the unfolding of these processes, who is stopping you? Science makes no claims for "why", so you're not even working at cross purposes. Science describes a "how" and we get to craft our own "why".

Why is it necessary to attack the description of "how" in order to validate what can only be a deeply personal "why"?
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They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #169 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Aren't Noble lies just inert truths?

Look, the information systems are a thing just as the bodily structures are a thing. All of those above things could be great for rearranging bodily functions -- slowly -- over time, but to propose what those things do to information systems -- slowly -- over time, is not an adequate explanation -- pretty much the opposite.

In any case, reducing the information systems to brute biology is about as testable as the argument for a multiverse.

re: Noble lies - also known as giving people their 'medicine' in some circles.

At what point do we stop telling these noble lies though? Isn't it enough that we might find a broken man in the gutter who has lost everything and give him the 'medicine' to bring him back to humanity, restore his life and virtues - maybe such lies could be justified in order to save his life. But should we just keep telling more and more lies not knowing when to stop, and inadvertantly cause far more damage than you fix. Does Christianity think that everyone is sick and dying. Who gets to decide that? What if I decide Christianity is sick and dying, shall I go around telling lies to try to save them? Maybe the intent is good, but the outcome could be alot worse.

SO maybe you might save a few lost dying souls by nobly lying about Evolution. But where does it stop? Can you lie to everyone - what if they all believe it? In a world that is blowing itself up because certain groups of people have become radicalized by this belief, that words are 'literally' true - ie someone lied to them to save them, well thats great for them, but is pretty bad for all of us in general.

Where does this doctrine of noble lying end? A return to the dark ages? Nuclear war? The complete restoration of Israel? A world-wide domination of Governments by fundamentalist Christianity?

Yet people will still have lost dying souls - what new noble lie are you then going to concoct to save the people all over again, and how bad will the consequences be next time?

And Btw, 'information' in 'brute' biology is Tested EVERY day. And for the record, i completely abhor the multiverse hypothesis.
post #170 of 186
Actually, I was kidding about the Noble lies...a bad Nobel gas reference that died Horribly.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #171 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Actually, I was kidding about the Noble lies...a bad Nobel gas reference that died Horribly.

hehe. Good joke, i would never have got it,

but my point still stands. When do you take the person you saved and tell them the noble truth that you lied to them to get them off their deathbed and put an end to the madness?
post #172 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

hehe. Good joke, i would never have got it,

but my point still stands. When do you take the person you saved and tell them the noble truth that you lied to them to get them off their deathbed and put an end to the madness?

I saw a sign on a church placard the other day....

"Try Jesus, if you don't like Him--the Devil will always take you back"

...what garbage.

I believe that, as a Christian, I can attempt (and it's not always a good attempt) to set an example of Christlike behavior, and present the Truth of the resurrection, bla, bla, bla. I can't fool anyone into that, it's something that happens on a spiritual level and there's not much use in cajoling or scaring the crap out of people. "My sheep hear My voice" That's the long and the short of it.

I have problem with evangelicals, whose main contribution to the culture seems to be Christian Heavy Metal --- or maybe those Britney Sprituals choruses that intimate how much Jesus is my boyfriend. Evangelicals seem to think that they are the focus and that they are doing all the work saving souls. Well, I have news for them, it's the Holy Spirit's province and His alone. When you have people with essentially no culture, except maybe some weird syncretistic pastiche of Happy Days the evangelicals, culturally speaking, essentially have no business of their own to attend to.

Christ said to present the Gospel, and if they don't listen, leave them the frell alone. Period. Live. Pray. Walk the walk. The rest is Moral and not political.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #173 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Aren't Noble lies just inert truths?

Look, the information systems are a thing just as the bodily structures are a thing. All of those above things could be great for rearranging bodily functions -- slowly -- over time, but to propose what those things do to information systems -- slowly -- over time, is not an adequate explanation -- pretty much the opposite.

In any case, reducing the information systems to brute biology is about as testable as the argument for a multiverse.

Scientists have found evidence of evolution, not direct (like a live eye-witness who lived through it and kept video tapes or something), but a progression of fossils of dead creatures and they gel very nicely with the theory.
post #174 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuh Freak

Scientists have found evidence of evolution, not direct (like a live eye-witness who lived through it and kept video tapes or something), but a progression of fossils of dead creatures and they gel very nicely with the theory.

The game's all over (but infact its just beginning). Ive found the biological reason for Fundyism.

It is damage to the Right hand side of the Brain.

In Normal people the left hand side of the brain deals with and tries to maintain consistancy and/of beliefs, whereas the right hand side is constantly communicating new ideas to the left side and challenging the accepted beliefs. In effect, this feedback mechanism makes us 'grow' spiritually and intellectually, and saves us from falling into a trap of delusion led by our ignorance and feelings of security counjoured up in the left side.

In Fundyism, the right hand side of the brain has shut down somewhat or been damaged.

So there is no point even discussing with them. They are ill, mentally ill, and there is no known cure (though I've been reading some very interesting research about connecting a 9v battery to your head to boost performance by upto 30% - A bit like adding a few tenths of voltage when overclocking your CPU). They biologically cant understand because they aren't functioning properly. They are trapped in a world of naive childlike fantasy, because theyre primarily concerned with safety, stability and consistancy of belief. The problem is they cannot grow a sophisticated belief system, because the feedback mechanism has shut down.
post #175 of 186


dmz you were trying to argue that DNA doesn't evolve and self-select? Dude you need to open your mind and a Bio 101 book, sit down, and think for a minute. I mean come on, what are you going to argue next, 2+2=5? Creationists are so special.
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post #176 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic

I mean come on, what are you going to argue next, 2+2=5?

Of course 2+2=5... as long as one presumes that one of the twos is a "trinitarian" two.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #177 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquatic



dmz you were trying to argue that DNA doesn't evolve and self-select? Dude you need to open your mind and a Bio 101 book, sit down, and think for a minute. I mean come on, what are you going to argue next, 2+2=5? Creationists are so special.

I seeeeee.....so you're prepared to model an information storage/retrieval system (with error checking) that responds well to errors introduced into its own code?

Don't be ridiculous. Buying into such a schema has more to do with the adherent's metaphysical daddy issues than that schema' plausibility.

it is, by definition, a contradiction in terms.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #178 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

Don't be ridiculous. Buying into such a schema has more to do with the adherent's metaphysical daddy issues than that schema' plausibility.

Whereas saying it all happened because Metaphysical Daddy Himself snapped His Fingers and made it happen is entirely free from such issues.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #179 of 186
post #180 of 186
Did you know that people who have had strokes in the right hand side of the brain, lose the ability to get jokes, lose thinking creatively, and lose the ability to correctly decipher non-literal expressions of speech. The right hand side allows for processing of a wide picture, allows for out of the box thinking and is creative, a perfect balance for the introvertive left side.

In such unfortunate people, the left hand side takes over and dominates, and total judgement becomes soiled by inward looking selfishness, naive logicalness, authoritarianistic, and everything becomes 'in the literal', jokes aren't funny, they become narrow minded, and figures of speech confuse the crap out of them.

On a less drastic scale, the damage that a stroke causes if it occurs in the right hand side of the brain mirrors perfectly the modus operandi of the Fundamentalists and Creationists.

So the question is.

Does the fundamentalist state of mind arise from the belief system which causes the subsequent misfunctioning of an important part of the brain , or are these people already misfunctioning and are subsequently attracted to the belief system?
post #181 of 186
Seems to be that the hormone 'testosterone' is crucial in the development of a foetus' brain.

Mothers with below normal levels of testosterone produce babies with the right hand side of the brain underdeveloped from the left. Inversely too high a testosterone level in the womb will result in the opposite.

Also interesting of note, is that what causes an under developed right side of the brain, (lack of testosterone in male babies) also leads to things like homosexuality.


edit: I removed some stuff I got completely back to front. Apologies
post #182 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

Also interesting of note, is that what causes an under developed right side of the brain, (lack of testosterone in male babies) also leads to things like homosexuality.

Actually, just the opposite. High pre-natal exposure to testosterone is strongly correlated to male homosexuality.

Also, gays on average have a lot more testosterone than straight men, believe it or not.
post #183 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat

Actually, just the opposite. High pre-natal exposure to testosterone is strongly correlated to male homosexuality.

Also, gays on average have a lot more testosterone than straight men, believe it or not.

Im completely with you on the second point, not sure thats what I just read on the first.
post #184 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

So the question is.

Does the fundamentalist state of mind arise from the belief system which causes the subsequent misfunctioning of an important part of the brain , or are these people already misfunctioning and are subsequently attracted to the belief system?

Marc, I would suggest it is a little of both, but I am beginning to lean heavier toward "already misfunctioning". I ran across an article the other day in the paper (the one printed with ink) which described "a provocative study, published in the respected 'Proceding of the Royal Society, Biology' " Walnut Creek, California. I personally never heard of them, but, just google either /toxoplasma gondii/ or /Lafferty USGS/ and you'll find zillions of links.

Toxaplamsa is a parasite that infects/effects the brain and emotional centers, and from what I've read so far might favor the right brain effects you described above.

I will not, however abandon my long stanging belief that massive and continuous doses of religious dogma from age 1 day to 16 yrs is the most obvious 'cause' of fundyism, be it Christianity or Islam.

Paz
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What we obtain too cheap, we esteem to lightly...it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. Thomas Paine
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post #185 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

I seeeeee.....so you're prepared to model an information storage/retrieval system (with error checking) that responds well to errors introduced into its own code?

Don't be ridiculous. Buying into such a schema has more to do with the adherent's metaphysical daddy issues than that schema' plausibility.

it is, by definition, a contradiction in terms.

I have a pretty weak understanding of evolution (basically, bio 101 class years and years ago), but the errors, I tought, were the very essence of mutation. Many, if not most, of the errors would fall of the face of the earth as they were unable to survive for generations, and useful "errors" or anomolies would become enhancements.
post #186 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by thuh Freak

I have a pretty weak understanding of evolution (basically, bio 101 class years and years ago), but the errors, I tought, were the very essence of mutation. Many, if not most, of the errors would fall of the face of the earth as they were unable to survive for generations, and useful "errors" or anomolies would become enhancements.

Dmz also has a weak understanding of evolution, but a very detailed and intricate weak understanding which your above comment is insufficient to address.

There's a whole theistically-motivated take on "information theory" at play here, with lots of impressive looking but ultimately inappropriately used mathematics attached, and some very erudite sounding confusion of the idea of "purpose" with information. None it holds water (see Kitzmiller v. Dover Board of Ed transcripts to see how poor a job some of the leading lights of ID did trying to defend this crap), but it's good enough to bluster and pose with if you want to smuggly declare that "evolution is on the ropes" and make it sound impressive to someone who hasn't kept up with this stuff.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
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